[AxS.Sorathez]

After spending some time away from Starcraft, I returned with the mindset that I know actually wish to learn how to play the game.

What does this mean, you ask. It means setting aside my faithful 4-gate that has netted me many PvP victories over the years.
Instead I decided to start doing a phoenix build, because phoenixes are cool.
After some experimenting, I have become somewhat lost as to the ideal build order, reactions and executions of the build.

Attached are two replays. One on Shakuras Plateau, where I managed to defeat a fellow platinum player,(please ignore my 26/26 supply block)
Second, is one on Ohana, where I got my metaphorical ass handed to me by a masters player who also went phoenix, though I was somewhat perplexed about his addition of forge and cannon.

Any advice would be appreciated

P.S. If you steal my second gas I WILL 4-gate you.

[ToRLuneth]

I use this build: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=350993

It works for me at a platinum level.
I'm interested what some better players would have to say about this as it somehow makes pvp fun

Quick Comments

mGGSouth:

I use this build every single PvP :D

[AxS.Sorathez]

Yea I just saw that, soon after I made the post.
Clearly I hadn't been looking closely enough O.O

Quick Comments

ToRLuneth:

That build is hard to find -__-

[mGGAequitas]

Originally Posted by FaDeSorathez

Instead I decided to start doing a phoenix build, because phoenixes are cool.

Phoenixes are awesome. I use phix's every game vs every build (excluding proxy zlots and cannon rush and probe rush)

[Next_rim]

Used to play phoenixes a ton (I'm master). I switched to prism bust builds because everyone blindly goes robo these days, and I get free wins. I can't look at replays right now, and can't supply my own, I will later when I get home. Basically few tricks I learned:

1) 3 phoenix + robo behind is very powerful for expanding, and you get that obs in time for even fast DT's.
2) 5 phoenix + 3-gate ramp bust can work vs most robo builds.
3) Get obs speed - 2-3 mid-late game phoenixes with an obs are best counter-intelligence in game.
4) Don't try to kill colossi with phoenixes - rarely works.
5) Forget probes - kill sentries! -100 gas and an open ramp inviting you to walk in with that powerful 3-gate army.
6) If opp responds with forge, you kind of need to get a forge of your own. It's not only for cannons, you will soon be battling 1-1-1 army, or maybe even 2-0.

Disclaimer - I played greediest phoenixes possible - skipping sentry, and sometimes even stalker, off 1 gate.

[mGGAequitas]

Originally Posted by Next_rim

4) Don't try to kill colossi with phoenixes - rarely works.

it works and it works well

Originally Posted by Next_rim

5) Forget probes - kill sentries!

only if you are planning on all inninng. but if you are playing macro your first aim is probes, and 2nd priority is sentries, also zealots are a good target because you can kill them easily and if they get a fast charge zlots will likely be effective against your ground army.

Originally Posted by Next_rim

6) If opp responds with forge, you kind of need to get a forge of your own. It's not only for cannons, you will soon be battling 1-1-1 army, or maybe even 2-0.

you don't need cannons, except maybe later game when they are doing zealot and/or dt harass. but yes upgrades are obviously good.

[Malice]

I'd believe Aequitas, he's pretty much the Phoenix king

Pretty sure 6 Phoenix are the magic number for killing colossi too, but I'd say only make 6 Phoenix if you scout 1 base colossus, if they take a second base into colossus you might as well spend those gas and minerals getting your own colossus production going.

[FlashVeno]

yeah i agree with everything aequitas said too :P
i think making more phx is also good, and its very hard to deny harrass on mineral lines if they take their nat..making 6 can still be worth it.

[Malice]

idk, I sometimes feel like over 3 is a bit overkill and starts killing into tech. 3 is the perfect amount for one phoenix to pick up a probe, and the other two kill it, also 3 is enough to force blink, as soon as I see the presence of phoenixes I start my twilight usually.

[mGGAequitas]

Originally Posted by Malice

idk, I sometimes feel like over 3 is a bit overkill and starts killing into tech. 3 is the perfect amount for one phoenix to pick up a probe, and the other two kill it, also 3 is enough to force blink, as soon as I see the presence of phoenixes I start my twilight usually.

but not everyone does start their twilight right away, in which case more phoenixes work well. a lot of people still try to go robo with a heavier emphasis on stalkers, which i think is a fine reaction, but against it i will continue making phix's for a while since they are so helpful in an engagement (killing cols/immortals/zlots/sentries)

[Malice]

I'd say 5 is max though tbh, unless they're going 1 base colo, then 6 is better, but i guess if you went phoenix and they're 1 base colossus allining you've pretty much blind won anyway

[mGGAequitas]

Originally Posted by Malice

if you went phoenix and they're 1 base colossus allining you've pretty much blind won anyway

not really if they are 1 base collosus all in, it's basically like a 4 gate that isn't countered by forcefields and with phix you rely heavily on the forcefields. I admit though it is really easy to kill most people's collosus before it stomps on your forcefields since they control it poorly. but if you miss their army moving across the map and see the collosus 4 gate at your natural then it's going to be tough if you do like a star robo 2 gate. you gotta make sure you know where his army is and kill the collosus even if it means sacrificing all your phix's (since you would have like double his probe count from all your phix kills it won't even matter)

and as to how many phix's i probably tend to get a lot more than 5, i guess it depends on each game; the map, how much dmg you do, what tech path etc. I don't stop making phix's until they go blink stalker archon or heavy stalker from lots of gates

[SLCNPezz]

Originally Posted by sRAequitas

not really if they are 1 base collosus all in, it's basically like a 4 gate that isn't countered by forcefields and with phix you rely heavily on the forcefields. I admit though it is really easy to kill most people's collosus before it stomps on your forcefields since they control it poorly. but if you miss their army moving across the map and see the collosus 4 gate at your natural then it's going to be tough if you do like a star robo 2 gate. you gotta make sure you know where his army is and kill the collosus even if it means sacrificing all your phix's (since you would have like double his probe count from all your phix kills it won't even matter)

and as to how many phix's i probably tend to get a lot more than 5, i guess it depends on each game; the map, how much dmg you do, what tech path etc. I don't stop making phix's until they go blink stalker archon or heavy stalker from lots of gates

there's no reason to expand vs 1base collosus if you open phoenix.

You can just wait for them to move out, pick up like half their damn mineral line, they are completely all in at this point and you're at 1 base. The have to engage up a choke (the ramp) with a stalker heavy army (since you went phoenix and forced them) and at that point you can snipe the collosus off and forcefield the ramp.

[mGGAequitas]

Originally Posted by ToRPezz

there's no reason to expand vs 1base collosus if you open phoenix.

You can just wait for them to move out, pick up like half their damn mineral line, they are completely all in at this point and you're at 1 base. The have to engage up a choke (the ramp) with a stalker heavy army (since you went phoenix and forced them) and at that point you can snipe the collosus off and forcefield the ramp.

yeh exactly, i wasn't suggesting that you expand that's a pretty bad idea with phix against any one base play.

but yeh it's fairly easy if you manage to pick off the collosus before his entire army walks into your base stomping over your forcefields.

[x5_Bard]

Watch SsonLight's steam he does this 3gate/SG build that while being extremely micro reliant is damn amazing and works against all openers.

If you have your heart set on playing with Phoenix go for it. I personally feel that robo openings are far stronger, but that's just my opinion/playstyle.

[FlashVeno]

i love stargate.. its really good in pvp. phx are just SO strong!
making 6 is still ok..collosi tech doesnt have to come so fast.. it forces them to spend their gas on stalkers and twilight and blink.. while just make zealots so you still have faster or same timing collosi.
i find that i can still hold 1 base collosi all-ins while expanding.. 4 is enough while just chrono immortals and make zealots of 3 gateways. you dont need 6 workers on gas, just enough to keep making immortals.. if you have 3-4 spread your units and focus the 2 collosi with immotal and phxs.

[AxS.Sorathez]

Thanks for all the good replies, it's been really helpful