[Next_rim]

I got burned hard in two recent PvT's for bad opening reading.

So, I generally scout with 9-pylon probe, and usually am able to keep it alive till I see the rax addon (or no addon, which is also information). That is, when T gets standard 13-gas and orbital.

Game#1 - I go in, scout no standard 13 gas, therefore no addon. Probe dies to first marine soon, so I'm thinking - all-in. I respond with forge after gate, no gas, 2x cannons and ramp block. Nothing happens. I send a probe, but it dies mid-way to 3 marines. I eventually get to my 1st stalker, go scout just to find out he did a 1-rax gasless expand. Opp is masters.

Game#2 - same thing, I scout no gas and rax, think it's marine scv-all in, get a forge up, just to discover he later did some weird 2-rax into double-gas into starport+banshee. Idk, maybe he was just bad and I overestimated my opponent, or he was playing mindgames. Opp is diamond.

So I have three questions:
1)Am I responding correctly? I mean, forge is 100% all-in proof response, but sets you back on wpgt tech. I have very hard time repelling all-in with standard 3-gate.
2)Are there more signs to look for to tell gasless (or delayed gas) openings from all-in? Depos? SCV count? Orbital timing?

3) A little bit unrelated, but if he does rax+depot at bottom of ramp, how can I tell reactor hellions from marine-scv all-in? Marine count? Anything? Some people don't do the +depo from orbital, and ptu straight 2nd depot in base, so this is not 100% way to tell.

[nGenLight]

1) No, a forge response to no gas is downright stupid.
2) Stalker poke.
3) Start shooting at the depot/barrack to find out.

Don't ask me for more details, I'm not nice like PiG.

[iM yang]

The easiest way to tell if the Terran is going for a super quick all-in or not is the Orbital timing. If it is delayed after the first rax has finished then he has proxy'd a rax to produce marines.
You don't need to have a forge to defend a Marine/SCV allin, you need stalkers. You should always have a unit at the bottom of a Terran's ramp to see when he moves out.
Your stalker sits outside his base, when he moves out with SCVs/marines you need to shoot, move back, shoot, constantly pick apart his attack all the way from his base to yours. While this happens you chrono your gateway, put another one down, make sure you don't get supply blocked, etc.

You basically want to respond by going 1 gate expand, going up to 3 gateways and a robo(depending on what your poke at his ramp tells you). This will allow you to scout anything the terran does and react to it. 1 gate expand may not usually be safe on some maps and positions but if his gas is delayed a lot then he will have delayed MM pressure which 1 gate expand can have trouble dealing with.

If he walls off at the bottom of his ramp with a rax/depot you should probably gate-robo-nexus with stalker production. The reason for this is because you are able to pressure the terran via poking at the bottom of his ramp, he has to deal with your stalker with any units he has.
Gate-robo-nexus expo is really hard to do on short rush distances when faced with really fast pressure but he can't put an addon on his first rax without you scouting it very easily allowing you to respond appropriately. The early nexus allows you to deal with tank/marine/banshee.

._. sniped by light

Quick Comments

	TAriiChard:	+1
	TCPLemminks:	I like your answer better ^^
	NvPinder:	HEEEEEEEEEYYYYYAAAAAAAAAAAAANG

[Next_rim]

TAyang,

Any good replays to look at? Especially on Antiga shipyard, cuz that's where all all-ins happen these days. Have no idea how 1(2) gate chronoed stalkers can clear 20+ supply of shit in reasonable time, especially when it all just m-trains into your base, and stalkers have to run and shoot. It's not super early, usually 15-20 seconds before 3rd chrono wpgt is finished.

If I go zealot-sentry-stalker instead of zealot-stalker-sentry, does it help counter all-in?

[Halstrom]

I could be stating the obvious here, but no gas doesn't always mean all-in. Terran have a no-gas 1 rax FE available that gets a CC and 3 rax before grabbing double gas. Once the FE is down it's a quick transition into a double starport for MMM, or the Terran can transition into any number of combinations supported by the early 2 base.

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/1_Rax_FE

A two (or more) rax Marine/SCV all-in will have the first rax down from 11 supply and a second rax on or before 14 supply. If he gets an Orbital before a second rax, he isn't going all-in.

If you scout his natural with your first stalker and he hasn't FEed, poke up his ramp. If there are 5-8 marines (no marauders) then he is likely doing this build (or similar).

[iM yang]

If I see the lack of orbital, no gas indicating a proxy rax; I usually skip zealot and put another gateway down to get many stalkers out.
Basically you want to stutter step back to your base with the stalkers and then kite him around inside your base until you've done a lot of damage. He needs to kill your stalkers and probes to kill you so just run them around while your gateways get more units, if he tries to go for pylons, just kill his units until he switches to your stalkers and just run around more. (run your probes around if he goes for the mineral line, just buy time, etc)
Once you feel like you have done enough damage, attack with ALL your probes. Once all his SCVs are dead and most of the marines are gone you can pull your probes back to mining and let your stalkers deal with the rest.
You don't get a sentry, you get as many stalkers out as you can asap. Building a sentry isn't especially useful when you only have 1 gas as you can't get a lot of them out and 1 forcefield doesn't do much.

If you see the delayed orbital and no gas but nothing comes out of his base, poke up his ramp with a stalker and just expand while producing stalkers. (stalkers are awesome until he has a lot of marauders)

You should have an easy time on Antiga, the map is fairly big, just remember you need to do as much damage as possible to him before you engage with your probes.

[TAVoices]

U can hold a tower or put probe patrolling between his base and yours to see a congo line of scvs and marines coming, dont need the cannons bra

[NvRossi]

yang, terran can easily make 2 racks and not delay their orbital at all as well

[iM yang]

Of course they can, it's not at all scary as a 3 rax with a delayed orbital however and is easily held off with stalkers.

[Insidious]

dont always assume an all in. I think most of what has been said is good advice.. be active with your scouting. if he does go all in you can defend with stalkers and good micro.. if he dosent then use your stalkers to scout/poke and control you should always have a good read on your opponent.

[iM yang]

Exactly, at the end of the day, you need to be prepared for an allin but if he just delays his orbital and gas to try to throw you off then he's putting you ahead.

[DemisodaSPR]

(A) Ensure it's 12 rax. 12 rax finishes @ 2:38.
(B) Ensure his OC starts @ 2:38. 2:45+ OC usually means proxy rax OR retardation. You can deduce which it is through (C).
(C) When he makes his OC @ 2:38, count SCVs mining. FOURTEEN. Easy way to count is to assume there's 8 already on there (1 on each patch), and simply count the number of patches than have TWO. Add this number to 8, and this is how many he has mining. 13 = proxy (IF he's not scouting. IF he's scouting 13 = 1 rax), 14 = 1 rax.
IF he's OC @ 2:38 and 13 SCVs and no scout, he's 12/14 proxy.
IF he's no OC @ 2:38, 12-13 SCVs then he's a much more all in 2 rax (assuming no OC in the next 5 seconds)... 11/11 11/12 12/12 whatever something like this. This alteration of his 2 rax range is actually quite important for ZvT and you probably want to get a 16 overlord instead of a 17 overlord. I don't know how it will affect PvT, but at least you know % chance SCV pull is higher.
(D) Poke his ramp at 3:06. But first when your probe enters his base and his rax finishes at 2:38, make sure his marine is queued literally as soon as the rax finishes to ensure that 3:06 is consistent. The marine actually pops out a bit earlier than 3:05 beacuse it takes 0:25. What you're doing is checking for 1 marine, as if it's just 1 marine 12 rax 16 CC is a huge part of his range. It can still be some 4 rax shenanigans, but the range is heavily weighted to 1 rax CC if he's just make 1 marine (due to the different permutations of many rax builds & the effect of this on his probability distribution).

As Toss i don't know how much of the above you need to know. But I hope you can now begin to empathize with the plight of zergs in ZvT.. and this is just a small slice of no-gas first 3 minutes T.T

Derp

Originally Posted by TAyang

Exactly, at the end of the day, you need to be prepared for an allin but if he just delays his orbital and gas to try to throw you off then he's putting you ahead.

no OC @ 2:38 and 14 SCVs mining, or 13SCVs mining with a SCV scout, and he's not proxy. He's just pure retardation!

Quick Comments

Maynarde:

Good post with alot of timings. Started reading @ 2:08 and finished @ 2:10

[Snod]

Originally Posted by DemisodaSPR

(A) Ensure it's 12 rax. 12 rax finishes @ 2:38.
(B) Ensure his OC starts @ 2:38. 2:45+ OC usually means proxy rax OR retardation. You can deduce which it is through (C).
(C) When he makes his OC @ 2:38, count SCVs mining. FOURTEEN. Easy way to count is to assume there's 8 already on there (1 on each patch), and simply count the number of patches than have TWO. Add this number to 8, and this is how many he has mining. 13 = proxy (IF he's not scouting. IF he's scouting 13 = 1 rax), 14 = 1 rax.
IF he's OC @ 2:38 and 13 SCVs and no scout, he's 12/14 proxy.
IF he's no OC @ 2:38, 12-13 SCVs then he's a much more all in 2 rax (assuming no OC in the next 5 seconds)... 11/11 11/12 12/12 whatever something like this. This alteration of his 2 rax range is actually quite important for ZvT and you probably want to get a 16 overlord instead of a 17 overlord. I don't know how it will affect PvT, but at least you know % chance SCV pull is higher.
(D) Poke his ramp at 3:06. But first when your probe enters his base and his rax finishes at 2:38, make sure his marine is queued literally as soon as the rax finishes to ensure that 3:06 is consistent. The marine actually pops out a bit earlier than 3:05 beacuse it takes 0:25. What you're doing is checking for 1 marine, as if it's just 1 marine 12 rax 16 CC is a huge part of his range. It can still be some 4 rax shenanigans, but the range is heavily weighted to 1 rax CC if he's just make 1 marine (due to the different permutations of many rax builds & the effect of this on his probability distribution).

As Toss i don't know how much of the above you need to know. But I hope you can now begin to empathize with the plight of zergs in ZvT.. and this is just a small slice of no-gas first 3 minutes T.T

Derp



no OC @ 2:38 and 14 SCVs mining, or 13SCVs mining with a SCV scout, and he's not proxy. He's just pure retardation!

These times are actually really helpful, I'm going to start checking things at the specific times in this match up

[souljah]

What I do with scouting is not look at the actual timings actually (can't get my head to actually memorising it) but one based more on feeling? And I guess I have been lucky thus far, my feelings haven't let me down so far (the force is strong in me i guess)

[pRoTimber]

i am a retard...

[Elanshin]

You dont really need to see exact timings. Generally a quick scv count will give away whether or not there is a 2nd (or 3rd) barracks.

Assuming its not an all-in, the most likely candidate is a 1 rax FE -> 3 rax -> starport. A standard 1 gate expo -> 3 gate robo should get you into the mid game on par or slightly ahead if you delay his expo by containing him a bit.

However do watch out for fe-> 4 rax as the number of marines being output by that is surprisingly large and can overwhelm 3 gates if the protoss is greedy.

If there is no FE (and there is gas) then you should be very comfortable to take the fast nexus after core as any 1/1/1 is severely gimped and slowed by the lack of gas.

The only real other thing it can be is a 6-7 rax all in which just means get enough sentries to hold your ramp and then get collosus out.

[DemisodaSPR]

Originally Posted by Elanshin

You dont really need to see exact timings.

This is true if you don't want to know whether:

- he's gas first
- which gas first he is
- he's a more all in 2 rax than 12/14
- he's 2 rax with proxy (only 1 rax and no gas in the main) [this one can be learned without timings though]

[Elanshin]

Originally Posted by DemisodaSPR

This is true if you don't want to know whether:

- he's gas first
- which gas first he is
- he's a more all in 2 rax than 12/14
- he's 2 rax with proxy (only 1 rax and no gas in the main) [this one can be learned without timings though]

I disagree. Gas first is easily spotted even if you dont know the timings for barracks, you can click on the refinery and if theres anything more than about 30 gas mined when an orbital goes up its a gas first.

There is only 1 logical gas first build, which is going fast factory. Anything after that you cannot scout and knowing exact timings wont help you whatsoever if the terran is truly bent on keeping you in the dark.

If the terran has gone a variation of 11/11 (cut scv 2 rax), a simple glance at the mineral line will tell you what is up. 9scvs mining looks alot different to 13. There no need to know exact timing, just know that allinish 2 rax pressure is coming and react accordingly.

[DemisodaSPR]

Originally Posted by Elanshin

I disagree. Gas first is easily spotted even if you dont know the timings for barracks, you can click on the refinery and if theres anything more than about 30 gas mined when an orbital goes up its a gas first.

4 player maps and you can't rely on this. You need the timing.

There is only 1 logical gas first build, which is going fast factory. Anything after that you cannot scout and knowing exact timings wont help you whatsoever if the terran is truly bent on keeping you in the dark.

Factory or reaper. And yes, exact timings will help you, as they give you the agency to identify gas first no matter if you scout him last, which then forces you to adjust the build range you've estimated. If you don't know the timing and you scout him after 2:35 then you're forced to assume 12 rax 13 gas and you will play sub-optimally against him (unless you change absolutely nothing when playing with the knowledge that he's gas first). Sure you can remember things like "ok, for this particular map and last position scout if he has < X gas when my probe gets there he's gas firsT", but this is tedious as you have to memorise this for all the different maps.

If the terran has gone a variation of 11/11 (cut scv 2 rax), a simple glance at the mineral line will tell you what is up. 9scvs mining looks alot different to 13. There no need to know exact timing, just know that allinish 2 rax pressure is coming and react accordingly.

You do if you scout him after he's walled in the front. You need to know the timing of the first rax to know whether it's 12/X or 11/X. You can't rely on being able to count his SCVs on a 4 player map. I don't know if this is necessary for Toss or not.

[NvPinder]

To be honest i only send my probe out to scout cos it seems like all the cool protoss players do that, i disregard any information i see and just build a nexus on 20 supply into winning.

Works pretty well tbh.