[divinesage]

Hello guys, just throwing out some scenarios here to see what would protossses do if they were caught in such a situation where they're somewhat behind.

1. PvZ

You the protoss have done a successful 3 gate sentry expand. The only aggression that you have experienced is ling aggression. You have gotten Robo and just got one colossus out, and your 3rd has just completed. The observer has scouted 3 bases with gas on all 3 bases but you're unable to scout the main. So you guess it's either infestor ling or muta ling. Especially if the zerg is going muta ling. He can easily amass a flock of 30++ mutas which would easily destroy your current stalker/sentry/colo composition if you don't act in a couple of minutes. What do you do in this situation? I know it's possible to attack immediately but it still doesn't stop the inevitable. Any unit composition to go to stop it?

2. PvP

You have scouted with your observer that your opponent has just completed his robo bay, earlier on you have gotten more stalkers and zealots to ward off his 4 gate (or what looks like a 4 gate opening) but he will undoubtedly have more colossus than you if you place your robo bay down now. What do you do in this situation when the imminent attack would be a mass of zealots and more colossus than what you would have? Would getting a quick blink help?


Thanks.

[PiG]

1. PvZ: Hallucination is awesome for keeping zergs honest. If you scout mutas on a map like shattered temple break down the back rocks go kill him. On a map like xel naga just kill him.

The unit composition to pwn mutalisks consists of:

1) Storm + Archons OR
2) pheonix

Both with stalker support/ground support.

PvP sorry i have no idea!

[FSDarkNemesis]

You know I would do if the enemy has much more forces than I do? Screw this I can't be bothered, I would GG out and leave.

Quick Comments

Maynarde:

Constructive responses please.

[NvPinder]

Scenario 2 we don't really have enough information, but assuming you're going gate heavy and your robo bay isnt started and his is like, finished, and he opened non-econ 4-gate, you can probably expand here and continue to flood gateway units and get a good arc if he tries to hit you off 1 base, if he expands himself you get an opening to put your own robo bay and another robo and catch up on collosi that way.

Collosi aren't THAT amazing untill they get in big numbers PvP, so as long as you start to catch up before he's getting, like, 6, you should be okay.

and yeah what PiG said in scenario 1 is pretty much correct, taking your third without even knowing his army composition is really bad and you can't take a third that quick with 3 gates and a robo you're just going to get completely raped, you need waaaay better scouting.

[Dracover]

What if in P v Z

You've done some kind of early expansion into expo either 1 gate or 3 gate.

You've gotten hallucination and u see that his just taken his 3rd say 9 -10 mins in and begins massing roaches. He then proceeds to contain u i.e. if u ever try to move out to take a 3rd he'll hit the base ur not at.

I find myself in this situation a lot. On certain maps it feels like i don't have much of a choice but to 2 base allin. I've re watched replays where the Z doesnt try to take the econ lead in that it will be usually 65-60 wokers or something 10 mins where they can potentially be 70-60 or even more at that stage, yet they chose this more units style.

What is the response to this? As I've said I've found I have to resort to a 2 base all in at times which I would rather not.

[ETL.Santi]

I would apologise for playing Protoss and switch to a more manly race.

Quick Comments

	ToRDeathsFang:	Leave Brotoss alone
	TAavanar:	someone just lost to protoss

[Next_rim]

1. Get HT
2. Not enough info. But either expand, or get a stargate up with voidrays.

Dracover,

Get immortals or mothership + voidrays in addition to w/e ground combo you are running. Don't forget sentries and observers. Build a great wall of cannons at your third and don't let him flank you with roaches. Use forcefields to trap some roaches. Another option - get DT and flank his roach army to harass economy. Chances are he has at most 1 os.

[Homer]

You cannot just "get Storm" or "get Phoenix". If you do not scout what the Zerg is doing and you're blind to his tech switch then it's going to hurt regardless of what he does. If you're constantly using hallucinations then you will scout the Spire with enough time to either begin Blink or begin Phoenix.

[Next_rim]

You should just scout at 9 min with illusion, then tech will be 100% revealed.

3rd base + double evo, infestor pit - ling infestors into hive (broodlords or ultras), will grab 4th at 13:00, and will have 200/200 by 18:00. Will likely push at 16:00 to kill your third and fourth.

2 bases, double evo - roach ling push at 9:30 (weak, and you will see the army), or big 140-ish food at 11:00. You just need lots of sentries to fight this.

Hydra den - 10:30 hydra push, or 13:00 roach+hydra push. Colossi + sentries and good forcefields.

Spire and all gas up, but just slings on the map - mutas at 9:45. If there is hydra den + spire already, it means he put up emergency spire in case you build lots of colossi.

Look at your army comp and time, and figure out what's best to get. Sometimes it is better to just cannon up, if you have time - grab an expo and spam colossus and sentry, or switch tech. Most of the time, if you are not ready for a particular tech zerg has, it means you got scared and built too much army when he didn't attack. Don't overreact, and 90% of the time you will have enough production capacity and econ to overpower even a direct counter push.

There is also another way. Attack. As QXC said: "if you are not attacking - you are probably losing". Prepare a timing push of your own, like 4(5) gate, or 1gate expo into 6 gate, or forge FE into double robo and 4x colossus timing. Protoss timings, if executed correctly, come 30-45 seconds before zerg, and you have a decent timing window to do stupid damage.

Btw, I play air protoss is PvZ (forge FE with cannons into mothership and triple stargate). Counters most zerg compositions by brute force. You get those 45+ min macro game though, but it's fine with me

[divinesage]

Great advice. How could I have forgotten about hallucination, sentry expand is meant for that. Getting a robo and obs after 4 or 5 gates would probably be too late a scouting time. Seems like I need to change my greedy playstyle in PvZ games, it's not working out that well at all.

Also, expanding first, that seems like a good idea. Generally I feel for PvP it becomes slightly harder to expand first because of the danger of an immediate push, which then boils down to who has the better micro. Harsh match-up indeed.

[porkchop]

Originally Posted by divinesage

Great advice. How could I have forgotten about hallucination, sentry expand is meant for that. Getting a robo and obs after 4 or 5 gates would probably be too late a scouting time. Seems like I need to change my greedy playstyle in PvZ games, it's not working out that well at all.

Also, expanding first, that seems like a good idea. Generally I feel for PvP it becomes slightly harder to expand first because of the danger of an immediate push, which then boils down to who has the better micro. Harsh match-up indeed.

***id scout after core , just to see whether his going to get out a stalker or sentri , try counting his probes to , i think with whiterah's pvp builds , the worker count is very important, yup halucinate is pretty much the key ,, but remember even the best dies with the 1st push from a good pvp build ,

[porkchop]

Originally Posted by Next_rim

You should just scout at 9 min with illusion, then tech will be 100% revealed.

3rd base + double evo, infestor pit - ling infestors into hive (broodlords or ultras), will grab 4th at 13:00, and will have 200/200 by 18:00. Will likely push at 16:00 to kill your third and fourth.

2 bases, double evo - roach ling push at 9:30 (weak, and you will see the army), or big 140-ish food at 11:00. You just need lots of sentries to fight this.

Hydra den - 10:30 hydra push, or 13:00 roach+hydra push. Colossi + sentries and good forcefields.

Spire and all gas up, but just slings on the map - mutas at 9:45. If there is hydra den + spire already, it means he put up emergency spire in case you build lots of colossi.

Look at your army comp and time, and figure out what's best to get. Sometimes it is better to just cannon up, if you have time - grab an expo and spam colossus and sentry, or switch tech. Most of the time, if you are not ready for a particular tech zerg has, it means you got scared and built too much army when he didn't attack. Don't overreact, and 90% of the time you will have enough production capacity and econ to overpower even a direct counter push.

There is also another way. Attack. As QXC said: "if you are not attacking - you are probably losing". Prepare a timing push of your own, like 4(5) gate, or 1gate expo into 6 gate, or forge FE into double robo and 4x colossus timing. Protoss timings, if executed correctly, come 30-45 seconds before zerg, and you have a decent timing window to do stupid damage.

Btw, I play air protoss is PvZ (forge FE with cannons into mothership and triple stargate). Counters most zerg compositions by brute force. You get those 45+ min macro game though, but it's fine with me

****this is awesome stuff....