[dennistoo]

How can i stop it? Seems very famous now. 3 gate expand failed badly. 3 gate + stargate expand?

Roaches imba.

[souljah]

get a forge right after you expand or before if i want to play really safe, and get a couple of cannons up. Cannons with decent forcefields to keep them away will give you enough time to get more units out to defend... and simcity with forges and cannons to prevent lings from getting decent surround on your canons... dont be afraid to let your nexus tank some shots as well

[dennistoo]

thank you. is 2 cannon enough?

[Next_rim]

I play forge-fast expand into stargate. By the time zerg pushes, I have a wall with 2 cannons, a voidray, a phoenix and 1-2 sentries with loads of energy. Zerg usually breaks through the wall, I transfer probes up the ramp, and let him try to snipe the nexus. I'm not very good with my sim sity yet, so 5/10 times I lose the nexus, but it's ok, since he loses like 3 times more worth in units. And yeah, my voidray is wrecking some sick kill counts .

For zerg, It is an all-in strategy, if you beat it without losing probes and nexus, it's pretty much instant win. If you lose nexus, you are equal, since he skipped so many drones.

[aztecx]

Originally Posted by dennistoo

thank you. is 2 cannon enough?

seeing as zerg often needed 4-5 spines to defend a 4gate, shouldn't u think maybe about the same amount?

[Tom]

Originally Posted by aztecx

seeing as zerg often needed 4-5 spines to defend a 4gate, shouldn't u think maybe about the same amount?

Not really comparable as protoss needs to commit to a forge. The first, and least significant issue is the cost of the forge. The more significant issue is the additional reaction time required for a protoss player to defend this sort of aggression. The player needs to decide whether or not to commit to defence far before it is possible to determine whether early aggression is coming, so that the option of actually making cannons is available if aggression is detected. By comparison, a zerg player will always have the option of throwing down spinecrawlers, and this is significant as it allows the player to "power" their economy for that bit longer.

This is why the forge after 3rd gate has become a virtual necessity in the match up (and always was, its just people "cut corners" in the match up, to paraphrase some high level TL posters). I'm not complaining about the need to make a forge, I just wish people wouldn't make silly or irrelevant comparisons.

I also think there is a fundamental problem in comparing the Roach/ling early agression to 4gate. Contrary to how some have described this, the build is not an "all in". When 4gate fails you're toast. When roach/ling aggression fails, the zerg player generally have a playable game because he has expanded - assuming the protoss player isn't killed outright, the aggression may have had varying effectiveness, ranging from doing nothing (in which case the zerg player is clearly behind) to killing all the protoss player's sentries and possibily killing some probes in addition to those that were cut by necessity in defending the aggression (in which case zerg is clearly ahead).

Please don't take this as a balance comment - it isnt. All I'm saying is 4gate is a bad analogy - it doesn't really make any sense to say "zerg needs 4-5 spines when protoss 4 gates, therefore protoss should have to make the same amount of cannons when zerg does the roach/ling aggression vs 3gate exp".

[PantlessPete]

I've got a question. How do you scout that it's coming? What can I look for to show that it's coming, and what time should I look for it? I scout at 9, hang around till I die... but then I can't scout again till hallucinate finishes, and this often seems like it's too late!

[Next_rim]

In order to get ready for all-in, scout at 6:30-7. Signs of all in - larva banked, only 10 or so drones on 2nd, no spines, no evo chamber, no hydra lair, no 3rd base, high OL count. You then have 40 or 50 seconds to get defences up. Cannon build time is 50, if I remember correctly.

[NDG.Stitch]

cannon up with stalkers and sentries with some decent FF's and it would put u so far ahead. if u can even pull out a stargate straight away it'll be even better

[Tom]

Originally Posted by Avelestar

I've got a question. How do you scout that it's coming? What can I look for to show that it's coming, and what time should I look for it? I scout at 9, hang around till I die... but then I can't scout again till hallucinate finishes, and this often seems like it's too late!

Realistically, you will be unable to scout the zerg player's main or expansion at the 6-7 min mark in many if not most games (especially where the zerg player is trying very hard not to be scouted, but this can sometimes be as much of a give-away). A decent zerg player will use speedlings to deny a scouting probe sent at this time 4 times out of 5 unless you do some especially sneaky probe hiding and dancing. So this means you nearly always have to commit to at least 1 cannon at 6.30ish and be ready to throw another cannon down quickly, cut probes, warp stalkers and micro your backside off. Yes I'm very aware zerg has to deal with the same thing versus 4 gate!

Quick Comments

PiG:

Thankyou for explaining accurately and clearly! Too many players are listening to low-level advice that is plain wrong on this build

[Next_rim]

[/quote]but then I can't scout again till hallucinate finishes, and this often seems like it's too late! [/quote]

Aren't you 3g-expanding? Must be boasting ok army count. Get some stalkers and zealots and do a poke.

Check out this replay that shows you how retardedly low econ an all-in has. I recommend watching it with harvester count open all the time. Game on scrap station againts a diamond zerg with all in.

Also, check out this thread to get a grip on my PvZ style.

http://www.sc2sea.com/showthread.php?t=1394

[dennistoo]

Originally Posted by Tom

Not really comparable as protoss needs to commit to a forge. The first, and least significant issue is the cost of the forge. The more significant issue is the additional reaction time required for a protoss player to defend this sort of aggression. The player needs to decide whether or not to commit to defence far before it is possible to determine whether early aggression is coming, so that the option of actually making cannons is available if aggression is detected. By comparison, a zerg player will always have the option of throwing down spinecrawlers, and this is significant as it allows the player to "power" their economy for that bit longer.

This is why the forge after 3rd gate has become a virtual necessity in the match up (and always was, its just people "cut corners" in the match up, to paraphrase some high level TL posters). I'm not complaining about the need to make a forge, I just wish people wouldn't make silly or irrelevant comparisons.

I also think there is a fundamental problem in comparing the Roach/ling early agression to 4gate. Contrary to how some have described this, the build is not an "all in". When 4gate fails you're toast. When roach/ling aggression fails, the zerg player generally have a playable game because he has expanded - assuming the protoss player isn't killed outright, the aggression may have had varying effectiveness, ranging from doing nothing (in which case the zerg player is clearly behind) to killing all the protoss player's sentries and possibily killing some probes in addition to those that were cut by necessity in defending the aggression (in which case zerg is clearly ahead).

Please don't take this as a balance comment - it isnt. All I'm saying is 4gate is a bad analogy - it doesn't really make any sense to say "zerg needs 4-5 spines when protoss 4 gates, therefore protoss should have to make the same amount of cannons when zerg does the roach/ling aggression vs 3gate exp".

I agreed. Even roach/lings failed, zerg is still ahead of the protoss because he has expanded. He can just dropped few spines to drones up and attack again. 4 gate can't even defend a 1 base roach/lings all in because of the warp gates nerf. Zerg can skip lings and tech to 6RR in just pure 5min where warp can only be completed in 5.50min mark.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by dennistoo

I agreed. Even roach/lings failed, zerg is still ahead of the protoss because he has expanded. He can just dropped few spines to drones up and attack again. 4 gate can't even defend a 1 base roach/lings all in because of the warp gates nerf. Zerg can skip lings and tech to 6RR in just pure 5min where warp can only be completed in 5.50min mark.

Sorry dennistoo, what I've been saying does not apply to any 1-base roach variants. I'm referring to the roach timing attack around 6.30-7.30 after zerg expands where zerg cuts probes and makes mass units.

If you've gone 3gate expand vs a standard roach rush (7RR etc) you should have enough sentries on the field and training to safely ff the ramp provided you're not caught by surprise. The trickier build is the 3RR mass ling, which often catches you with no or insufficient sentries. If you pick it up through scouting, you need to chrono sentries until WG finishes. If you don't scout it until the last minute, you need to wall (including more buildings behind the one's being attacked, typically the pylon) until you get enough sentries to ff. If you don't scout it until the roaches are at your ramp, you're usually dead ;p

[Next_rim]

Can you post a replay? Looks like you are having hard time defending on tal'darim and scrap station, where ramps are wide.

There is a heated discussion on TL suggesting that 3(4)g is a build order loss to 7rr or 7 min roachling all-in. If you want to be 100% safe - change opening to 1g expand or something.

[dennistoo]

Originally Posted by Next_rim

Can you post a replay? Looks like you are having hard time defending on tal'darim and scrap station, where ramps are wide.

There is a heated discussion on TL suggesting that 3(4)g is a build order loss to 7rr or 7 min roachling all-in. If you want to be 100% safe - change opening to 1g expand or something.

I'm having a very very hard time dealing with it. I've given up expanding early and go for DT rushes instead. Ill post a replay soon.

[ProAnnn]

3 gate expand is generally safe on most maps against roach/lings all-in. It just requires the protoss player to not cut corners. Throw down forge before the nexus if you want to play safe. Immediately throw 1 cannon after your forge if you nexus first before forge. Good forcefields to delay the lings from running in and preventing the roaches from sniping your cannons is key as u would have 6-7 sentries but not much dps so most of your dps are from the cannon.

As long as you continue warping in stalker/zealot (Depends on how many lings/roaches left), and try to keep your cannon alive, you should generally be able to hold this all-in/aggression.