[syfRize]

Clan AxiS Outsourced vs Eternal e-Sports

Details:
Date and time - Sunday, 23/06. 6:30pm AEST/4:30pm SGT

Meeting place - SEA server, public chat channel: "etlvsaxs".

Format and rules - Best of 9 all-kill, current ladder maps to be used (no map can be selected more than twice), starting map is selected via first players veto.

Lineups!

+ [ETL] +

NaMek
Typhoon
Branno
ChowMuddha
aDeswal

BiscuitCrumb (raceslut)

+ [AxS] +

Pollofrio(Carfos)

CLZ
Nekorsis
Excision
Phoenix
water

Caster - http://www.twitch.tv/ssj5gogetenks

Results!

+ [Here!] +

5 > 1

+ [Here!] +

CLZ <Whirlwind> aDeswal

CLZ <Akilon Wastes> ChowMuddha
CLZ <Neo Planet S> NaMeK
CLZ <Derelict Watcher TE> Branno
CLZ <Neo Planet S> Typhoon

Nekorsis <Newkirk> Typhoon

[Akilos]

such a damn shame i can't join any clanwars for a while.

[water666]

water to all kill? xD

[syfRize]

Originally Posted by water666

water to all kill? xD

water to 4 kill then choke

Quick Comments

water666:

pfff if this was coh2 i all kill

[Typhoon]

Its time to slay some nerds ETL!

Quick Comments

water666:

we're geek's, actually@!

[TheKidBuffalo]

biscuitcrumb to all kill

Quick Comments

sR_Osiris:

giggle giggle ....... good joke

[syfSoundwave]

come at us bro

[TheKidBuffalo]

we got dis mahn

[sR.Kumo]

AxS to Win!

[Antel0pe]

AxS to slam ETL, then flip them over like pancakes.

om nom nom nom.
im ******* hungry atm.

[TidaL]

hoping for >
gl hf to all

[eMp.distyL]

should be very exciting

[syfRize]

Lineups are up!
There may be some edits on the night, but that's pretty much it ^_^

GLHF!

[ChowMuddha]

might be massively hungover for this just fyi etl

[sR.Kumo]

ooh
AxS Plat team to 5-0 ETL Dia team!

[DeekZ]

CLZ, Nekorsis, and Excision all ? Surely that's a mistake?

Quick Comments

	sR_Osiris:	i havent laddered much latley need to gte back into it !!
	syfRize:	Not laddering enough T_T

[sRRising]

why aren't you playing soul?

Quick Comments

sR_Osiris:

they willl get butthurt :/ since he was gm

[syfRize]

Originally Posted by RisinG

why aren't you playing soul?

I don't think it's fair.

[ChowMuddha]

And im done

Quick Comments

	ETL.Branno:	me too
	syfRize:	???

[ChowMuddha]

still drunk feelz bad man

[Plottel]

:O AxS in so many Clan Wars, GLGL
I think this is gonna be a good series, but I think im going to tip ETL to take this one, sorry SouL

[syfRize]

Originally Posted by pX.PLoTTeL

:O AxS in so many Clan Wars, GLGL
I think this is gonna be a good series, but I think im going to tip ETL to take this one, sorry SouL

Have you forgotten.. We have WhiteRa ;DD

[syfSoundwave]

Since no AxS people are available to cast, I will do so http://www.twitch.tv/ssj5gogetenks

Quick Comments

TidaL:

Will watch VODs

[syfSoundwave]

Results:

aDeswal CLZ
ChowMuddha CLZ
NaMeK CLZ
Branno CLZ
Typhoon CLZ
Typhoon Nekorsis

ETL 1-5 AxS

Grats to AxiS, there were some really good games tonight.

[TtSYF.tRoy]

Originally Posted by ETL.Soundwave

Results:

aDeswal CLZ
ChowMuddha CLZ
NaMeK CLZ
Branno CLZ
Typhoon CLZ
Typhoon Nekorsis

ETL 1-5 AxS

Grats to AxiS, there were some really good games tonight.

I like all AxiS zergs

Quick Comments

syfRize:

>_<

[ChowMuddha]

oh god that is ******* depressing

[ChowMuddha]

its a sign should probably just quit sc2

Quick Comments

mGGNemesis:

noooooooooooo

[sR_Osiris]

ahha ^^^^ lel

[sR_Osiris]

******* nekorsis !!! so gosu !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[syfRize]

Well played!
Great games guys!

[ToRPandarine]

ermm...not to gripe or anything but arent these CWs suppose to start with the lowest league as possible? O_O

Quick Comments

	syfRize:	CLZ was Plat, he hasn't been playing much at all recently. Soundwave made an error is all. :)
	syfSoundwave:	Please don't bullshit SouL, he was a former Masters player according to his profile. His play was clearly above Plat.

[syfRize]

Soundwave;
He is in Plat league.
I was just stating his current actual league.

If you would like to know, he hasn't been playing due to studies, as a lot of our members have.
He is currently in the bottom half of his plat league with 5 wins and 6 losses.
He is also currently race switching a lot in team games.

aDeswal took a third too quickly and CLZ capitalised.
Chow was hungover.
NaMek, well, PvP is a coinflip.
Branno had ONE bad engagement.
Typhoon outplayed him after switching races from Terran.

Good games all round anyway.

[VB_Blake]

Originally Posted by AxS.SouL

Soundwave;
He is in Plat league.
I was just stating his current actual league.

If you would like to know, he hasn't been playing due to studies, as a lot of our members have.
He is currently in the bottom half of his plat league with 5 wins and 6 losses.
He is also currently race switching a lot in team games.

aDeswal took a third too quickly and CLZ capitalised.
Chow was hungover.
NaMek, well, PvP is a coinflip.
Branno had ONE bad engagement.
Typhoon outplayed him after switching races from Terran.

Good games all round anyway.

Still a bit shifty, you should list him by his skill level, I was GM but i am currently in the lower half of diamond with 4 games played (on sea), doesn't mean i list myself as a diamond and play in p/d clan wars. If he was masters then chances are he still has a masters level of skill.

Quick Comments

	ETL.Branno:	thats how i see it aswell.
	Plottel:	Ditto, current league on SEA is pretty much irrelevant to your skill

[sR_Osiris]

ahaha soundwaves being a butthurt little idiot :')

Quick Comments

	syfSoundwave:	I could have easily complained about sending a former Masters player but I didn't. Listing him as Plat is dumb though.
	mGGHalt:	show match between u and me, i haven't played for like 9 months and im only gold on SEA. should be a easy win for u?

[Lokth]

Good to see AxS sending out more "not masters, but used to be, but there not anymore so it ok" players in PD clan wars. Seems to be a habit with these guys. They sent out ZeN when they played ToR last month, a diamond with high masters skill and 300+ apm.

AxS, doing anything to win.

Edit - For reference http://drop.sc/339328

Quick Comments

syfRize:

fyi, one of our members in platinum has 300 apm. apm means nothing.

[syfSoundwave]

For the record, some of my players complained that you were playing a former Masters player (I disallowed Luckyshyt from playing, he is currently Diamond and hasn't played in a couple of months for this same reason) and I told them to suck it up and deal with it, not wanting to raise an issue. Listing him as Platinum is dishonest though, he was clearly above that in skill level regardless of build order differences and you don't lose two leagues worth of skill when you don't play for a while.

Compare that to Nekorsis, who got supply blocked several times early and other such novice mistakes, clearly Platinum level like was claimed.

Originally Posted by AxS.excision

ahaha soundwaves being a butthurt little idiot :')

Grow up, Kaleb.

Quick Comments

	sR_Osiris:	yes but lucky left his ladder so the master wouldnt show how is that not sus ??
	mGGHalt:	lol ^ the real question is did we play him?

[mGGNemesis]

I think it's only courtesy if you want to field an ex masters player in a PD clanwar, to at least request for permission to do so.

In our clanwar vs oGc when they were short of players, they did request about sending Zen. Normally we will not accept an ex- masters player (especially for 1-2 seasons back) to play in our PD clanwars. However, because Zen has friends in mGG who are keen to let him play (the players who were going to be send out), hence I allowed Zen to play (It is a friendly clanwar afterall). This is despite us fully aware of his skill level. This was however an exception (the only one to date that I can recall recently). In all other clanwars e.g. vs TN, we were very strict about not fielding in an ex-masters player even though it required the other clan being understanding and this being fair to all PD players.

Of course we do know there are some platinums and diamonds who do play really well but as long as they have not achieved masters and are still laddering to attempt to achieve it, we gotta respect there are some good players out there.

Once a player in mGG achieves Masters, we place him in the M/GM division for clanwars and even if he should somehow be demoted to diamond, he remains there for clanwars unless he really fails to get masters again after 1-2 seasons despite trying to do so.

Also bearing in mind that Bliz just recently mass demoted a lot of players 1-2 leagues down. We should not be using their current league to decide which clanwar they should be playing in. E.g. a GM placed as Diamond now, shouldn't be in a PD clanwar just because he is Diamond now OR a Diamond player who is now Gold to play in a BSG clanwar.

[FSBenAD]

To be frank... Not saying this was the case, but IF you do a clan war and you dont specify in advance what conditions you are, you cant assume the other team is going to abide by your rules.

Ive happily let ex masters players play for and against my clan as long as everyone is aware and agrees. It depends on when they were of course.

The leaders should clarify these points and leaders should be open about the skill level of their players.

And to anyone who thinks we should just follow the SEA standard, Id point out there really isnt one. SEACL allowed ex-masters to play in PD on the admins approval. GPD rule is masters in 2013, not allowed. So we shouldnt assume...

It be much happier if we came to a standard rule set and could agree on it..Including ranks on other servers... And what is considered an active league rank etc.

Quick Comments

	syfRize:	Soundwave had all clan war to let me know he wasn't cool with an ex-master (long time ago) to play.
	syfSoundwave:	I didn't like it, but I didn't complain about it because this is the exact issue I wanted to avoid.
	mGGNemesis:	In SEACL, plat starters, ex masters aces (if fielded), the logic is to allow as fair as possible play for all PDs

[sR_Osiris]

well sure i apologize to Soundwave for me being immature.... won't happen again

[syfRize]

Alright, so we please everyone that has lost;

AxS' PD division will now send out only Platinum players that have never been higher than Platinum.
We will also send out Gold players.

This seems like the only course of ******* action that will shut people the **** up.

So CLZ is an imba masters player? Then why'd he lose to a Diamond only for a Platinum to win.

@Dj - He had to vs a Diamond who tore through CLZ...
@Bandit - If you watched the games there was ample opportunity for each ETL player that lost to win, but if you also notice from the Vods, each ETL player lost to things that wouldn't even matter in Diamond vs GM in some cases. I'm not saying that CLZ roflstomped them, but there was significant things to do with builds and timings that when compared to the opponent's, wouldn't matter Diamond vs GM

Quick Comments

	ToRDjvillian:	So that the platinum didn't have to face the rest of the diamonds from ETL? Sorry was that rhetorical?
	sR_Osiris:	-.-
	VB_Blake:	it is possible for a masters player to lose to a diamond. beating 3 diamonds is more convincing then losing to 1

[VB_Blake]

Originally Posted by AxS.SouL

Alright, so we please everyone that has lost;

AxS' PD division will now send out only Platinum players that have never been higher than Platinum.
We will also send out Gold players.

This seems like the only course of ******* action that will shut people the **** up.

So CLZ is an imba masters player? Then why'd he lose to a Diamond only for a Platinum to win.

@Dj - He had to vs a Diamond who tore through CLZ...

No need for that attitude. All we are suggest is that you be appropriately transparent in who you are sending out. Because of course it is going to rub insult to injury if you try and hide the fact you played allegedly masters level players and instead rub it in the face of ETL that they are just losers who are being hurt because they lost to a plat. Surely you can see the argument being discussed here, so why be all sarcastic?

[Snx.Mufasa]

Originally Posted by AxS.SouL

So CLZ is an imba masters player? Then why'd he lose to a Diamond only for a Platinum to win.

you have him listed as a masters player in a post on your axs thread from like a month ago.

[ChowMuddha]

oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man

Quick Comments

mGGNemesis:

I think chow is drunk again :P

[ChowMuddha]

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/6579069952/hF51F5803/

Quick Comments

	mGGNemesis:	ok it confirms... chow is drunk :P <3
	VB_Blake:	xD

[ChowMuddha]

Im just really bored at work

[sR_Osiris]

ok idea everyone shut the F**k up sounds good..

[ChowMuddha]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/e327b9876...7e13o1_250.gif

[sR_Osiris]

............

[ChowMuddha]

hahah im sorry i couldnt resist such a good gif

Quick Comments

mGGNemesis:

lol I'll take it as u are trying to lighten up the issue :P

[syfRize]

Okay, well, there's no winning in this argument.

My apologies for not letting Soundwave know we played a masters player.

My apologies to those that played and were beaten.

My apologies to CLZ for letting him, an old time friend, play in a clan war I thought was at his level due to his record recently. (Not just this season, last season as well)

My apologies to the community for this crappy conduct.

CLZ has been listed as a Diamond level player for the argument's sake, because I believe the listing is where half of the argument stemmed.

Have a nice day everyone.

[ChowMuddha]

dude i didnt even get to hellbat drop

[RicocheT]

Excellent PD manager you are SouL.
Crappy excuse to say 'i thought was at his level'
Son you need to lift.

Congratz to Excision for showing sc2sea community how much of an idiot he is also.

Quick Comments

	syfRize:	Productivness level over 9000.
	sR_Osiris:	ok thanks for letting me know how you feel im not really bothered

[Lokth]

This entire thread is pretty telling of the Clan as a whole; The leader acts like an immature kid and so do a lot of the members. Feel sorry for the few people I actually like in AxS.

[syfRize]

Originally Posted by Lokth

This entire thread is pretty telling of the Clan as a whole; The leader acts like an immature kid and so do a lot of the members. Feel sorry for the few people I actually like in AxS.

Okay Lokth, thankyou for that.

What members? So far only Excision and I have posted?

EDIT: Upon further inspection a few more have posted here, but nothing they say is "childish".

[mGGNemesis]

I think many points were made and noted in general. When 2 leaders plan to have a clanwar, there is usually some mutual understanding and agreements made (e.g. format, maps used etc). This thread just surfaces some areas also possible for agreement between 2 clans going to play a friendly clanwar. This thread just reminds everyone to cover those grey areas and use some common sense as well to maximise the fun for all.

We can now change topic to why Chow would use sloths in his pixs. Perhaps he is a sloth in disguise playing sc2. That's pretty imba for a sloth to have 300000+ apm. :P

Quick Comments

Lokth:

I found Chow's facebook, heres his profile pic - http://thehendricksonpost.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/happy-sloth-64

[Lokth]

Im just going by experiences with other members in general, not this thread. For the record water is awesome.

Quick Comments

	sR_Osiris:	you have no experiences with me....
	syfSoundwave:	Well you're giving him a wonderful first impression.
	VB_Blake:	He has this experience.

[syfRize]

I'm in 110% agreement with Nem.

Dat sloth apm

Quick Comments

ETL.Branno:

no.

[ChowMuddha]

sloths just seem so chill and cool, generally i would fill Mondays with watching Game of Thrones at work but no GoT so this was probably the next best thing

Quick Comments

	mGGNemesis:	^_^
	Lokth:	I agree; GoT > Sloth > Rest of the world

[ToRsupapower]

Originally Posted by AxS.SouL

@Bandit - If you watched the games there was ample opportunity for each ETL player that lost to win, but if you also notice from the Vods, each ETL player lost to things that wouldn't even matter in Diamond vs GM in some cases. I'm not saying that CLZ roflstomped them, but there was significant things to do with builds and timings that when compared to the opponent's, wouldn't matter Diamond vs GM

This is the stupidest thing i've ever read, the significant things that happened that wouldn't make a "difference" in a Diamond vs GM match actually DID happen and DID make a difference, which is why there is an actually difference between P/D and M/GM

Quick Comments

syfRize:

Sloths.

[syfSoundwave]

ChowMuddha actually is one of the legit nicest guys I know. He paid for me and Djvillian's entry fee to City Hunter for NO REASON. He bought a new SC2 account and HotS for one of ETL's members, bought HotS for another ETL member, donated me $50 to use for ETL stuff and donates $50 to SC2SEA every month.

Quick Comments

	ToRsupapower:	inb4 dealer
	ToRPandarine:	^ one does not simply pay for those...agreed :P

[Lokth]

We need to delicate a day to ChowMuddha!

Quick Comments

mGGNemesis:

To be called Sloth Chowmuddha Day :P

[ETL.abbadonz]

this thread is overflowing with Frothing internet nerds... Woah feel that frothnesssss.

So completely missing the live stream, why would you play "what you feel was a plat player" last, after your 4th player got beaten by a Diamond?

Explain please?
You sir, are as trustworthy as an american politician.

[syfRize]

Originally Posted by ETL.abbadonz

this thread is overflowing with Frothing internet nerds... Woah feel that frothnesssss.

So completely missing the live stream, why would you play "what you feel was a plat player" last, after your 4th player got beaten by a Diamond?

Explain please?
You sir, are as trustworthy as an american politician.

Abbadonz plz.
Let it end.

plz.

Quick Comments

ETL.Santi:

#neverforgetAxSvsETLclanwarBS

[ETL.abbadonz]

OH i see. stand back ya'll
He has been found out and he would now like to retreat back into the hole he came from.

next time have some integrity and be honest with the people you deal with.
You might find more people respecting you.

[water666]

yay lokth thinks im awesome! my life is complete kill me now! xD

also sloths... **** yes.... and another **** yes coz... SLOTHS!

someone needs to get on bread kittens,... eros!

seriously though... im implementing a new rule, u dont bitch on the night u have no right to after its over as u complied with what was happening, check match histories before games start etc and if u have an issue raise it then and there dont let it ******* sit a day later...

i heat up my schnitzel, sit down to check out the happens and i get on to this? really people? having gone through this issue with the zen thing, poorly handled both ends and calling people childish? keep in mind most members of this community are under 18 so thats just a fact you havto live with dont like it make sure you only compete with over 21's and make sure their hipsters into art n science so u can all act grown up! im 25, im immature and i dont care its a game were not playing for 50k or matchfixing or any of that mistakes happen especially when you arnt clear, like nem mentioned on those grey areas!

/end rant

back to my schnitzel....

SLOTHS!!!!!!!!

[ToRSpookToR]

AxS had a player that was really sus in a clann war vs ToR it was explained to me that if he got pressured at all his mechanics would have not been as good so i let it go w/e. Also i pose a question to you lot i am diamond on every server now and i have played 57 games on NA can i play GPD clan wars?

Quick Comments

Lokth:

Well seeing as your well known to be a bad player anyway.... :P

[SLCN.Wally]

I am diamond sea looking for clan for some wars. I am very skill play with races of terran and of the zerg. PM me if you want to be interested I look forward to fun

Quick Comments

ToRSpookToR:

also willing to slut

[fray`Eros]

> This thread summed up

You Tube

You Tube

Quick Comments

	sR.Kumo:	Oh god what am I even watching T_T
	ThatGuyDoMo:	WUT AM I? AM I A ******* RETARD MANNNN??

[bald_eagle]

Nicholas Cage lol, he never fails to impress, even in these threads.

[water666]

truth, oh the drama... the humanity...


sloths?

[ToRPandarine]

sloths



10char

[bald_eagle]

Sloths, You want a piece of me boy?

Quick Comments

	ToRPandarine:	learn to bbcode <3
	water666:	hahahaha
	mGGNemesis:	lol

[DeekZ]

Lol, this thread is crazy.

I think it's a bit sketchy from AxS to have sent out CLZ and Nekorsis as players but I'm not sure if it's intentional seediness or just poor judgement.
When I was in AxS I never once saw CLZ play or be active at all but it was pretty well known that he was Masters, and I had seen it mentioned a few times that Nekorsis was Masters on EU, although I'm not sure how accurate that is.

Having said that, there is something that no one seems to have brought up yet and I think it's relevant to the conversation and that is about how leagues, namely Diamond and Masters have changed since the new season.
Now that Masters has been made a hell of a lot smaller there is a much larger gap between Diamond and Masters and most "Masters" players from last season who weren't 1200+ points are now firmly in Diamond (myself included.)
Just something to think about.

In any case, SouL you really need to change how you're managing things, one incident like this is already bad enough but they keep popping up and it's clear that it's a management problem. Also, Kaleb, none of your comments in this thread helped the situation, in fact almost 100% of them made it worse.

Quick Comments

syfRize:

Nekorsis was Masters EU mid-WoL as Terran.

[eMp.distyL]

I think this thread needs to be closed.

Was a very bad management decision from SouL, Sounds like he doesn't exactly see what he has done wrong.
Move on from this and in future when you are planning a Clan War make sure both management teams discuss the options they have especially if they have a previous season badge above the current league they hold.

Quick Comments

	mGGNemesis:	dw I think everyone's cooled down by now ^_^
	Seffy:	They're all chill; PROPER discussions have risen from the whole shebang.