[ToRSpartaz]

Today is a sad day, in fact this has been coming for a fair while now. Unfortunately I am announcing that Team ToR is leaving Avant Gaming after 6 months within the organisation.

+ [Disclaimer:] +

My post might be a little off in terms of structure/spelling - Balancing an assignment at the same time so my apologies ><

Effective immediately after the "new" direction that Avant has been taking in regards to it's management structure along with it's way of responding to players the decision to leave the organisation has taken place.

+ [Our Experiences with Avant over the last 6 months:] +

Back around October last year, we were made aware that there was an opportunity that our team would be able to leap at - That opportunity was Avant Garde.

We came into the organisation fresh and eager, with the idea that after all of our hard work leading up to joining Avant would be rewarded with real opportunities for our team to showcase how much they have grown and developed.

The first few months with Avant were fairly quiet, with the issues that were had regarding Tt eSports - The organisation were definitely on the rise from that point onwards, receiving more interest from potential companies to negotiate contracts.

When the organisation signed the first contract, since our joining with Avant, with Palit Microsystems we were super excited that we would be finally receiving some support from Avant. The first of that being was the name changes that we needed in order to represent the organisation. So we asked Wes, who is now technically in control of Avant, for the money in order to provide new accounts/a main account for the tags for the organisation. Months passed and when PJ presented the opportunity for the clans and teams to make a request for Blizzard to reserve the tags for the Clan Support feature for SC2, I jumped at the chance. Basically we asked for what was it $50 for the tags, which I didn't receive on time. So once the clan feature had been introduced, I approached Nirvana and paid for a new account myself. I think a week later I was reimbursed, but for months there was no signs of support or any indication that we would be provided with the funds for simply representing Avant ingame.

Just before ACL kicked off there was an internal management issue inside Avant, which some of you may or may not of seen on Cybergamer, but essentially it was the takeover of the organisation by the current owner Wes, from MKR - The founder of Avant. This brought across issues for the security of the team, because there were comments made against the team that spelt out in bold words that our team was viewed as "second rate" and as a result of that we wouldn't be deemed as equal as other platforms. This only strengthened our resolve moving into ACL Brisbane to represent Avant.

As you guys probably will know by now, both NXZ and Pezz did really well representing Avant and the guys at ACL Brisbane, unfortunately Pezz only losing out a place in the groups by going 1-2 to teammate NXZ, who went on to take 4th place at ACL Brisbane. We were really starting to open the eyes of the other players and management in Avant.

Unfortunately, despite showing what our team was capable of in regards to NXZ/Pezz's performance at ACL, the issues continued on after ACL and it came a time for us to act.

We were presented an unprofessional contract that could not sign. It granted little security for our players. It granted full control upon any decisions made that should be up to the player to the acting CEO of the organisation, which was in this case Wes. It put us in a position where we knew that our future with Avant was coming to an end.

What does this mean for the Team for the mean time?

Well definitely for the next month or so, we are going to step back a little and evaluate our options. There are a few paths that we can go down in our eSports journey, but we aren't going in to make any hasty decisions - I for one am looking forward to a bit of a break after the time and effort I put in aside from SC2 into Avant ><.

Despite the recently poor experience I hold the organisation itself in much respect. The people whom I have come into contact with have really added to my learning experience with this organisation, the Gears of War team, D1M1 and BLOPs have all been really great dudes to get on with. As well as my fellow manager Seth, who cares enormously for the wellbeing of the players.

to all that have read through this long winded post - And thank you for all the support you guys have show us across the last few months

Quick Comments

ToRMcLovin:

<3

[SLCN.Petrify]

Disappointing, Team ToR is full of incredible players and great people, I hope that you guys are able to find a new home. If its worth anything I think you guys made the complete correct decision, contracts like that are utter crap.

Quick Comments

asdfSchnitzel:

jimcredible*

[Dox]

Sorry to hear this happened to you, although I'm not surprised to say the least. Almost all Australian eSports "organisations" suffer from this lack of maturity/management. Most of our scene (outside of SC2) is stuck in a revolving door.

Hope to see you guys get picked up and supported in a more professional capacity ASAP, or perhaps you can look back on these experiences and use the opportunity to build your own standalone brand. It sucks especially after the momentum you built up at ACL. >_<

All the best.

[Baldie]

All the best for finding a new home. Although sad it is good to see you have control of your players once again in what appeared to become a less than ideal circumstance. The team has self driven and motivated players so I have no doubt they will keep themselves busy and training in the downtime.

Goodluck and good fighting!

[syfChadMann]

When I heard Wes was taking over from MKR I was worried.

Sucks that this has happened to you guys and I hope you can get things rollin' in a new direction for Team ToR!

I'd suggest to anyone approached by Wes from Avant about joining his team, to speak with Spartaz before taking any offer.

Quick Comments

ToRTinyTeddy:

I think everyone was worry when Wes took over..

[SLCN.NXZ]

I have nothing but respect for Av as an organisation and wish them the best of luck in the future. I felt that it was best for myself and Av to part at this point, regardless of the other guys. I believe that things such as pox's name change post is unnecessary and spiteful and am disappointed that we couldn't be more professional in that regard.

Also I will be leaving Team ToR as well to reconsider and pursue other options as a player. Thanks so much for having me although it was for a brief time Spartaz and Co .

Quick Comments

	RuineD:	pox #1 bm SEA
	Snx.FigJig:	Pox be more professional jeez
	ROCCAT_Savior:	******* Pox.
	Pox:	dick move pox
	Dox:	GOD DAMN IT DOX
	asdfSchnitzel:	freaking pox

[asdfSchnitzel]

This is a really sad day, but Team ToR will live on!

[x5.Stormz]

Good luck ToR in your future eSports endeavours hopefully the next one will be more successful And good luck NXZ! I have no doubt you will find a new home in no time!!!

[mGGPrometheus]

That sucks, Av.ToR is a very strong team and I hope ToR finds better sponsors, the players deserve it.

[syfSoundwave]

Well, this is some shitty news.

[Reere]

Sad to hear, but Team ToR has come a long way. 5 steps forward, half a step back. Heads up and press on! I believe the team's future will be bright! ToR FIGHTING~!

Quick Comments

ToRGreenArchon:

The ToR Phoenix always arises from the ashes

[BAD.BiGbiRd]

Standard from org's in Aus tbh, hope you guys find something soon. Really talented and cool guys

[IXLives]

Definitely sad to hear, between the excitement of new teams and the amount of work you guys have put in. That being said, good to see people haven't lost sight of where they came from. Even with this setback, given awesome and authentic leadership like this you guys are bound to keep moving forward. Best of luck guys.

[Av zShy]

Well its been one helluva run since I've come onto the organization, Nick has been around from the beginning of the recreation that is AVANT and provided his extensive knowledge to the management team as we've developed from the ground up and I have nothing but respect for him even as he departs.

Unfortunately it's come to this point, I feel the thread bashes Wes a little hard and paints him in an overly negative light with a bit of a one sided truth. Its a bit frustrating as we've only been running for 6 months and we've been considered a new organization branching out into esports, all of the early decisions that were made were based on a voting system between all the managers. Wes can't be considered solely at fault for anything within that time frame. Everything after the takeover can be considered otherwise between myself and him as we took the steps to change. I won't go into the details that most of you would like to hear (soz) as it would just proceed to derail the thread but without Wes AVANT wouldn't exist today and the support we have provided to SC2 (and all of our other gaming platforms) just outright wouldn't have been seen. While I won't go as far as to outright deny any of what was said, little was mentioned of the times we did support the players, ACL being a prime example as the first major SC2 LAN (iirc) we had attended. I'll be straight up, our handling of the SC2 division previous to ACL isn't perfect (far from it .__.) and we've taken actions so situations like this don't occur again.

Regarding the contract, I feel the comment was fairly unneeded as we have made plenty of efforts for revisions to cater more to the players needs and there seem to be a lot of conflicting opinions on this. Unfortunately those conflictions couldn't be resolved and so has lead to this situation. We had a lot planned for SC2 in the upcoming year so its a bit of a shame.

Again, personally I have nothing but respect for Nick and wish him all the best as he makes his way through the 'Sea of esports' and the future. The team itself as well, from when I engaged with them they all came across as top, friendly blokes just out to play some SC2 and kick ass. BoL to ToR in general as they go onto make waves in SEA region.

While I'm sure we're not exactly the shining beacons of hope right now in the eyes of the community we're still keen on SC2 as an esport title to support and would definitely look at players searching for an org. In the end a lot of the community has heard from one respected opinion in the community regarding Wes / the org and so we urge individuals to still keep an open mind.

Quick Comments

iM tgun:

Good post.

[zenabi]

Really sad to hear this D: Nick you are one of , if not, the best manager anyone could ask for, not just for your love for sc2 and Esports, but the way you care for these guys like they are literally your own brothers. If you need help with anything, just shout out. Look forward to seeing team tor rise again bigger and ore badass than before. ToR Fighting!!!

[ThatGuyDoMo]

Oh dang, this is pretty big news :S

I hope Team ToR stays together, you guys are hella good players and should be able to find new sponsors / representation in no time.

Interested to see where NXZ finds a new home

[LordByrnsy]

MKR == My Kitchen Rules??

[Pandan]

We were presented an unprofessional contract that could not sign.

I have read the standard AVANT player contract before - and it's nothing special and nothing undue or unfair to the players; there are some key points in it that every gaming team related contract has stipulations on, such as;

• All gaming gear/provided equipment belongs to the org until X time (usually 6 months or something like that) - so that players dont join then quit immediately after receiving gear
• There are standard no abuse/code of conduct in it (normal stuff)
• Players are expected to be involved in content creation, twitter/facebook stuff (all normal stuff)
• Product reviews are also a standard thing, last copy I saw had I think 1 month requirements in it
• Conditions of notice with regards to the org paying online/lan fees (normal)

I can understand that someone who doesn't deal with contracts might think that you're getting dealt with unfairly, but there is NOTHING wrong with the AVANT contracts I have seen.

In my personal opinion though, I don't like how wordy and 'traditional' the contract is. I can see it as a mental hurdle for younger gamers to get over - as it just appears over-the-top to most.

For the record, with Archaic we never made players sign a lengthy or wordy contract, we just made them sign a code of conduct and straight up told them the minimum promise of commitment, and their rules (don't be a retard) and we signed off on that document. Some of the commitments were min. 1 international trip per year, some were a minimum of 4 national trips, some where simply gear + online + lan fees.

Every contract is different to some extent because every player is different.

If you're blaming the contract, I'd be confident in saying it's an overreaction. If you have other reasons and are just using this as the final kicker; then that's fair enough - but let me assure you, the AVANT contract that I've seen is perfectly fine and reasonable. I personally think it should appear less wordy as gamers are younger, mostly inexperienced in business - but never-the-less there is nothing dodgy about the contract, it is very standard practice.

[SLCN.Petrify]

Originally Posted by Pandan

If you're blaming the contract, I'd be confident in saying it's an overreaction. If you have other reasons and are just using this as the final kicker; then that's fair enough - but let me assure you, the AVANT contract that I've seen is perfectly fine and reasonable. I personally think it should appear less wordy as gamers are younger, mostly inexperienced in business - but never-the-less there is nothing dodgy about the contract, it is very standard practice.

I'm studying commercial law and contract law was one of my strongest subjects - so let me assure you the avant contract (if you want to call it that) was pretty much a joke. There is absolutely no way it should ever be considered 'fine and reasonable' practice. Disclaimer: I'm not sure if its changed since i've seen it.

What the contract provided players:

1. A piece of gear from gamecom; however only if they are considered 'core'. And then its said that the captain gets to decide who is core, but followed up by this little gem.

AVANT management have the final say on who is core and who is sub.

2. Erm... nothing else? It offers the 'prospect' of LAN entry and flight payments.

What the contract takes away from players:

1. Every right possible. Basically if you forget to brush your teeth in the morning I'm pretty sure Avant can terminate the contract.

My personal favourite quotes from the contract:

2.

5.2.2 "; these consequences are looked at on a case by case basis with AVANT management. There is no limit to what AVANT can do."

3:

1.1.1. If a team wishes to leave AVANT, four (4) weeks’ notice must be provided in writing to either of the following emails in point 5.5.1 before the end of the four (4) month period.
1.1.2. If no written warning is provided in time and the team or player still decide to leave, AVANT reserve the right to recall all support given, from product, gear & financial support.

4:

5.7 Breaches of this Agreement are determined by AVANT management.

Seriously you'd think that if they were going to provide as many ridiculous terms in the contract as they did, they'd at least provide some sort of arbitration clause, but nope if avant says you did something wrong - you better believe you did.

[UncleTom]

Wow, really wasn't expecting this, it is indeed a sad day.

[Pandan]

My response is, go and look at any other esports player contract.

I don't use those terms, but in my familiarity of contracts with not just aussie but international orgs - its a carbon copy. Those terms exist for reasons mate. Not just Starcraft in gaming - you've got FPS gamers there as well.

End of the story is, if the management doesn't like you, they can get rid of you. What's the problem? If you don't like management, you can leave provided the terms.

ON TOP OF THAT - Avant offered to alter the contract for discussion, I know that as fact.


Here's the thing that I'm reading between the lines on. How many people are in ToR? A shitload? You are leaving avant because not all 70 thousand of your members are getting a moonglade contract.

Here's how you would have had the contract offered from any other org - DOX will back me up on this...

Baseline commitment for all ToR members = X
Extra Over for Top players (likely NXZ + Pezz?) = X+Y
Extra Over performance bonus = X+Y+Z

If you expect EVERY player to get the X+Y+Z or even the X+Y, you're dreaming. Do you think even in Nv of all teams, everyone gets the same as Moonglade? Do you think even in Nv, the console team gets the same as a SC2 team? NO, of course not - every single team and player in every org is different and gets different terms.

Quick Comments

	SLCNPezz:	Pandan, just because this may be a "standard" contract to lesser gaming organisations, that doesn't make it okay.
	syfChadMann:	I think the problem Pandan was that no one got anything...

[ToRSpartaz]

Originally Posted by Pandan

ON TOP OF THAT - Avant offered to alter the contract for discussion, I know that as fact.

Here's the thing that I'm reading between the lines on. How many people are in ToR? A shitload? You are leaving avant because not all 70 thousand of your members are getting a moonglade contract.

It seems that you already do not have a basis to make comments in relation to this dispute. If you don't know even the basis for who actually represented the SC2 division. 7 players have been representing Avant, originally starting with 6 until we picked up NXZ.

And despite the fact that this is one thing that you have been supposedly told, I personally have been pointing out the issues with the contract in relation to not only my players - but the implications for other teams as well.

You seem to be uninformed regarding the situation or at least only understand one side of the story. I would prefer it if we could leave this behind us now, there is no point on dwelling on something that isn't going to moving in any direction forwards or backwards.

And to those who have shown such signs of support It is much appreciated

[SLCN.Petrify]

Originally Posted by Pandan

My response is, go and look at any other esports player contract.

Do they all offer nothing to the players and in return take away every single right a player has? If so, no wonder there's been so many issues in esports with player contracts.

Here's the thing that I'm reading between the lines on. How many people are in ToR? A shitload? You are leaving avant because not all 70 thousand of your members are getting a moonglade contract.

Here's how you would have had the contract offered from any other org - DOX will back me up on this...

Baseline commitment for all ToR members = X
Extra Over for Top players (likely NXZ + Pezz?) = X+Y
Extra Over performance bonus = X+Y+Z

If you expect EVERY player to get the X+Y+Z or even the X+Y, you're dreaming. Do you think even in Nv of all teams, everyone gets the same as Moonglade? Do you think even in Nv, the console team gets the same as a SC2 team? NO, of course not - every single team and player in every org is different and gets different terms.

Um... the contract was only offered to Team ToR members, which is like 6-7 people?

As for the rest of the stuff about nv that's basically totally irrelevant and supports my argument; the 'x+y+z' shit was NOT offered to anybody. The only thing that was offered was 'x' and in turn everything that was taken away was the rest of the alphabet in both english, russian, chinese, japanese and korean.

Pandan just read this please:

This is the main thing that put me off the contract, why even put this in there if it's just done on a "case by case basis". It pretty much means the contract doesn't mean anything, and that Avant can do whatever they please. And if I sign I'm locked in for 6months, so I can't even get out if they aren't providing any support.

It isn't even a contract. It's an AVANT can do whatever they want with providing you nothing for 6 months. It's retarded. If it's standard practice then its disgusting.

[|Erasmus|]

my 2c: some of these things were fixed, but the contract was still -crystal- clear about the responsibilities of the players, while being markedly less so about the extent of the support Av would provide.

The players were concerned that the contract was not fair, and from the conversations I saw, instead of Av reassuring them and maybe trying to accommodate them in some way, it kept being pushed back, the contract was just described as "standard", and individual players were then trying to be pressured to sign separately. From my discussions with them, this just made them even more suspicious about said contracts, and there was no real 2 way process of communication.

edit: Seriously pandan... no need to make claims about how everyone wants a moonglade like contract. And there are 6 players in the team. And yes, they were/are willing to accept different levels of support given the differences in results they have achieved.

[Pandan]

Originally Posted by |Erasmus|

my 2c: some of these things were fixed, but the contract was still -crystal- clear about the responsibilities of the players, while being markedly less so about the extent of the support Av would provide.

The players were concerned that the contract was not fair, and from the conversations I saw, instead of Av reassuring them and maybe trying to accommodate them in some way, it kept being pushed back, the contract was just described as "standard", and individual players were then trying to be pressured to sign separately. From my discussions with them, this just made them even more suspicious about said contracts, and there was no real 2 way process of communication.

I have not seen a copy of the contract with what the player receives in their individual promises, I have only seen the contract template. If that information was missing, Avant simply needed to add the minimum commitment per contract. Pretty simple solution.

...and of course they sign separately, they are all different players with different needs, and most importantly, completely different legal entities.

The contract is standard (though obviously it was missing the minimum commitment). In its entirety, it's basically a formal code of conduct and minimum commitments for the player. I don't see how anyone should be calling it dodgy or unfair.

I can, however, see if people are unsure or concerned. Frankly, this is why I don't like eSports contracts when there is no salary involved - because of how people react to the most minor ammendable issues.

EDIT: When I witnessed the contract template, I specifically asked for player arrangements to be removed, as it in particular was none of my business.

[SLCNPezz]

I think my POV might be different from the rest of ToR's because I was personally provided with some financial support, albeit delayed.

I am personally thankful for the expenses covered for me to ACL brisbane. I think I was the only one in ToR who wanted to stay with Avant, but I did not want to sign this contract. As Petrify said, the contract just wasn't that promising to the players, it gave all the power to the management, and didn't promise anything for the players.

The one promise it made was gear, which let's be honest, every pro sc2 player already has, and it's really only a hindrance to get used to new gear. The second thing it mentioned in the contract was this:

4.2. AVANT shall provide the Player with support to attend national and international events.
4.2.1. The nature and level of this support will be on a case by case basis and through mutual agreement between AVANT and the Player.
4.2.2. AVANT will not be held liable in the event that a lack of support precludes the Player from attending any event.

This is the main thing that put me off the contract, why even put this in there if it's just done on a "case by case basis". It pretty much means the contract doesn't mean anything, and that Avant can do whatever they please. And if I sign I'm locked in for 6months, so I can't even get out if they aren't providing any support.

Once again, I know Nick feels wronged in many ways by Wes and Avant, but for me personally they have treated me pretty well, and I'd like to part in a professional manner.

[Pandan]

I was under the impression that the contract I witnessed had specifically had what Avant gives to players removed (i.e. commitment to X national events plane + accomodation fees) etc.

If NONE of the contracts had that in it, then Avant is at fault for not including it.

[SLCN.Petrify]

Originally Posted by Pandan

I was under the impression that the contract I witnessed had specifically had what Avant gives to players removed (i.e. commitment to X national events plane + accomodation fees) etc.

If NONE of the contracts had that in it, then Avant is at fault for not including it.

There we go.

[Pandan]

As I said above, I specifically asked for that to be removed from the contract I saw.

[SLCNPezz]

Well I don't really know why you're going on such a big rant if you haven't seen the current contract. It seems to me that you agree now that the contract isn't very well designed? Well, that's okay. I hope everything is clear.

Quick Comments

RuineD:

pezz brings the pain

[ToRDolo]

Huh, you're basing your entire defence of Avant's contract practice on an 'impression' from their standard contract template. Not just any template, but one which had Avant's responsibilities towards their players (which was Spartaz's primary concern and the one which Petrify brought up in his first post) removed... what ground are you trying to stand on here?

Also - contracts should be extremely black and white, that's why they tend to be wordy. So that every situation is clear cut. If they're wordy (as you and others have said about Avant's) and still not clear cut then there is something very, very wrong with the 'legal document'.

[EXCL]

Originally Posted by ToRDolo

Also - contracts should be extremely black and white, that's why they tend to be wordy. So that every situation is clear cut. If they're wordy (as you and others have said about Avant's) and still not clear cut then there is something very, very wrong with the 'legal document'.

Exactly - its called 'transparency'. From what I have read here it appears it certainly wasn't. Too many open ended or catch all clauses for Avant. I've also been involved in contractual development for the company I work within and the examples given so of what was in this contract are unreal.

[Pandan]

So, to be clear as Spartaz keeps not directly answering it;

Did you guys SPECIFICALLY say to Wes/Avant "Where does it say that NXZ gets his ACL flights/accom in the contract? You need to add that into his contract"

If you didn't, then you needed to be more clear.

If you did, and Avant didn't - then Avant weren't prepared to honor that committment.



My understanding is that Avant was fully prepared to add that in (as I was asked about it a week ago or so).

[SLCN.Petrify]

Originally Posted by Pandan

So, to be clear as Spartaz keeps not directly answering it;

Did you guys SPECIFICALLY say to Wes/Avant "Where does it say that NXZ gets his ACL flights/accom in the contract? You need to add that into his contract"

If you didn't, then you needed to be more clear.

If you did, and Avant didn't - then Avant weren't prepared to honor that committment.



My understanding is that Avant was fully prepared to add that in (as I was asked about it a week ago or so).

Even if you added in some term that completely garuanteed that the players provided financial support, it's still has these terms:

AVANT reserve the right to recall all support given, from product, gear & financial support.

5.7 Breaches of this Agreement are determined by AVANT management.

These literally mean if Avant don't like you, they can terminate the contract and get everything back. Go find me a contract between two companies that has ANYWHERE near that type of power to ONE party of the contract and I will give you $1million dollars subject to the signing of the following contract:

1. $1 million dollars will only be provided on a case by case situation
2. If you do anything I don't like ever I can recall $1million dollars if i actually do give it to you
3. I get to decide whether you have breached term 2.
4. If a breach does occur the power I have is limitless. My preferred remedy is that you in fact give me 2 million dollars.

Seems fair? Its standard practice in the industry

[Pandan]

Can you send me the contract you have? The one I have does not state that particular clause whatsoever.

In fact, the contract I have doesn't state that anywhere.

[SLCN.Petrify]

Originally Posted by Pandan

Can you send me the contract you have? The one I have does not state that particular clause whatsoever.

In fact, the contract I have doesn't state that anywhere.

-removing until i figure out how to remove personal information-

there you go

Note: This is a pretty old version... but it gives you an idea of what they were proposed

[SLCN.Petrify]

I will agree to those terms but only if you sign the above contract. Its standard practice.

Quick Comments

Pandan:

Is this the part where I say "no need to be snippy, mate" ?

[UHF]

AVANT reserve the right to recall all support given, from product, gear & financial support.

These literally mean if Avant don't like you, they can terminate the contract and get everything back.

Not that it's any of my business, but you quoted this before:

1.1.2. If no written warning is provided in time and the team or player still decide to leave, AVANT reserve the right to recall all support given, from product, gear & financial support.

I assume if Avant terminated the contract, this wouldn't be applicable (unless it's listed elsewhere).

[SLCN.Petrify]

Originally Posted by UHF

I assume if Avant terminated the contract, this wouldn't be applicable (unless it's listed elsewhere).

Except for the fact that Avant get to decide where any breaches have occurred. Even if they're wrong, 'their ruling is final'.

[UHF]

Originally Posted by SLCN.Petrify

Except for the fact that Avant get to decide where any breaches have occurred. Even if they're wrong, 'their ruling is final'.

Well let's be fair, that's a different matter (which i didn't want to touch :P)

The subject of Avant being able to retrieve all support as per 1.1.2, is only if ToR left the contract earlier than stipulated and without proper notice (not if Avant remove ToR).

[SLCN.Petrify]

Originally Posted by UHF

Well let's be fair, that's a different matter.

The subject of Avant being able to retrieve all support as per 1.1.2, is only if ToR left the contract earlier than stipulated and without proper notice (not if Avant remove ToR).

Regardless, ToR cannot dispute whether or not they have left the team with or without proper notice because of 5.7. They could have done everything by the book and had that term considered breached.

Quick Comments

UHF:

I was simply bringing up the fact 1.1.2 doesn't occur as you mentioned though :P

[SLCNPezz]

Well the fact that it's "standard practice" doesn't mean it's right or fair, it just shows how dodgy esports contracts can be.

[Pandan]

Straight away, that's the wrong contract.

Doesn't have Seth's name on it.

[Pandan]

Also wrong domain name (that's the old one)

Current domain is avantgaming.com.au

Quick Comments

	mGGDaedalus:	wrong domain name? gosh what a farce o.0
	syfChase:	joshpls domain is srs bsns

[SLCN.Petrify]

That was one of the contracts given in negotiation that I was sent. I just got my hands on a newer version which looks equally ridiculous from skimming over it; I'll tell you whats wrong with it when I return from uni

[Pandan]

Also, can you just redact their personal info/addresses on that google doc?

And anyone elses in it

Quick Comments

SLCN.Petrify:

No idea how to use google docs, I'll sort it out when I get home from uni, will remove doc now

[Dox]

Inb4 I was the mastermind behind all of this

Quick Comments

	Pox:	STOP DESTROYING PEOPLES' LIVES
	|Erasmus|:	I thought finding more babies to eat took up all your time now?
	SLCN.Petrify:	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh2sWSVRrmo

[iM SundeR]

I get the feeling that this is a result of many organisations around the world (and Australia) basically using kids and gamers as marketing slaves while they literally get nothing in return.

Being a part of a sponsored team does not automatically mean there has to be a huge divide between player and management. Look at a team like Axiom - I GUARANTEE that the players on that team are among the happiest in the world.

If the players want to get out of a contract and have a bad taste in their mouth - it's for a reason. You can't just hide behind the contract and say 'well this is a contract like it or not my organisation not yours sucked in buddy'.

There is no reason to feel this attitude towards other people in the Australian scene. Founding, managing or working for teams, in reality, does not elevate your social status, and it's a real shame that some peoples attitudes reflect this nonsense.

Quick Comments

	SLCN.Petrify:	Best post in this thread. Summed it up perfectly.
	EXCL:	the middle man making money :P
	ToRSpartaz:	Brilliant mate

[Dox]

Originally Posted by iM SundeR

There is no reason to feel this attitude towards other people in the Australian scene. Founding, managing or working for teams, in reality, does not elevate your social status, and it's a real shame that some peoples attitudes reflect this nonsense.

https://twitter.com/NvDox/status/317043277771718657

Quick Comments

	|Erasmus|:	haha... good one.
	iM SundeR:	LOL

[EXCL]

lol was this even proof read? there are so many tense, grammatical and wording errors for a binding document. Anyone who creates a contract should have at least some legality validation or endorsement. This alone would have scared me away :P

[Pandan]

Originally Posted by iM SundeR

You can't just hide behind the contract and say 'well this is a contract like it or not my organisation not yours sucked in buddy'

A) Not the case at all, neither side has even said that?
B) Irrelevant. The only people in this community that act like managers are > players have been made fun of repeatedly

[iM SundeR]

Originally Posted by Pandan

A) Not the case at all, neither side has even said that?
B) Irrelevant. The only people in this community that act like managers are > players have been made fun of repeatedly

A) Saying 'how can you complain, this is the contract you signed' is literally hiding behind the contract.
B) While this might be true in the SC2 community, it hasn't changed anyone's behaviour, and if you start to talk about the wider Australian eSports community: hilarious.

[Pandan]

Nowhere in here has avant said "how can you complain, this is the contract you signed", as far as I understood they refused to sign it?

Yeah, regarding non-sc2 and B), LoL community managers for example seem to value themselves greater than players, events hell, even the game haha

Quick Comments

Dox:

YEEEEEEEEP

[iM SundeR]

It's not so much that they haven't said it. If the players didn't want to sign it, and gave valid reasons for doing so, and were forced to leave the organisation because 'the contract is final take it or leave it', then it kinda sucks for all involved because it's just a bunch of wasted time and effort.

It's perfectly reasonable to say that the contract can be negotiated, but the terms of that negotiation, in most cases, never clear. Much like the mysterious 'case-by-case' basis and reimbursement 'guidelines' I've seen a lot of players having to deal with.

But it's just my two cents, I'm not well versed in putting together contracts. I'm just all for transparency, that's all.

[NDG.Stitch]

Bro. Sorry to hear this happen.
The team has been getting so good, it's sad to see the sponsorship couldn't get through.
Seems like a pretty similar case with us and PokerStrategy. Some sponsors just don't work well.
I wish you and your team good luck!

Quick Comments

ToRSpartaz:

<3

[jbhewitt]

My only preferences with contracts is that they should be short and to the point.

In regards to ToR leaving Avant, I'm sorry to hear you couldn't work out the differences and come to an agreement.

Quick Comments

Pandan:

+1