[GGenocide]

Hihi everyone, as you may know, I'm a mid toss player. Lately, I've been noticing that many people have been complaining abuot Toss being op and what-not. I'm curious to hear your opinions on this topic; are all the races balanced? Do you think buffs/nerfs are needed in some places? Etc.

Remember to support your reasoning.

Thank you and GLHF ALL

[ProAnnn]

For the most part yes, i would say they are pretty balanced. For now alot people(progamers) have been whining about TvZ being really hard for the terran. I agree with that but it happens now and then where 1 matchup become favoring to 1 race due to patch or new strategies, but it often dies down in a month or 2. Its not PERFECTLY balanced but i think all 3 races are adequately balanced.

[syfSoundwave]

The game is very balanced right now.

Of course, I still think Protoss is ******* bullshit.

Quick Comments

FsDronesInJail:

Forcefield good unit (Y)

[ayuruji]

I think the game is balanced, but Toss just seems very easy to play plus has a very strong builds/units composition.

I might say no for this one.

[EveMassacrisM]

Balanced, maybe. But still very shallow and limited in terms of potential.

[Zealo]

everyone says every race is OP except their own.

only random players have a real case if you use statistics.

[Pox]

Terran is definitely weak at the moment... I feel like the last patch brought ZvT from mostly balanced to quite Zerg favoured. I can't say much about TvP. ZvP feels balanced to me.

[ROOT`iaguz]

TvZ may or may not be balanced right now.

But the queen buff has created this huge safety net for zergs to make huge ******* mistakes/be really greedy/do dumb shit and not be punished for it and I find that incredibly frustrating. Rethinking a lot about TvZ right now (and praying for a patch soon with something nice. Which doesn't usually happen for terrans for SOME reason but a man can hope).

TvP still has it's lategame issues. I still feel like I'm playing against the clock in this mu and it's frustrating. Balanced? Maybe but frustrating all the same.

[aLtNinja]

If you're zerg protoss is imba
If you're terran zerg is imba
If you're protoss zerg is imba
Dunno if any races as a whole are saying terran is imba atm which is a nice change

Quick Comments

	ProAnnn:	Protoss here and terran is imba
	mGGAequitas:	terran is imba, (i'm protoss)
	Trinion:	Terran OP :( Protoss here :D

[TAEdgE]

I'm very happy with the state of maps at the moment, of course ladder is less than ideal but i'm still appeciative of what we have now after playing Delta Quadrant and friends a year~ ago. Maps are the main thing for me balance wise!

Onto race balance, the game design of SC2 makes a lot of things seem too strong at some points, but the only match up that can be considered 'imbalanced' or simply much easier to play at higher and equal skill levels is ZvT... I'm seeing a few terrans (mainly from EU) actually still do well and i'm vsing some innovative things on ladder, but there still is a problem.

[tioN]

i kinda like the game as it is i dont find protoss OP but im in gold balance really isnt an issue for me right now, but from my perspective i see the game pretty even for all races some circumstances are harder for others but nothing overpowered.

[eCKo`Switch]

ZvT feels too safe early game, queendralisks are fantastic. Still, marines.

[Theend]

This thread itself is imbalanced.

[RicocheT]

TvZ is frustratingly hard atm to put pressure earlygame, especially against good defensive zergs.
TvP lategame is tough. If storms were slightly nerfed, I wouldn't have any complains otherwise. Hard to beat turtle tosses too who just sit in their base in a hugely defensive posture for 20 minutes before attacking.

Quick Comments

	mGGNemesis:	nooo.... can't nerf storms :P
	mGGAequitas:	lol a terran (with 100 insta dmg emps) saying storms (80 dmg over 4 seconds) need a nerf
	mGGMueX:	@aequitas, emps cant suddenly kill half your army in one shot
	ToRCrispy:	@mGGMueX: but they can take it down to half health or less, where a good terran player can just dodge storms
	Bloodmyst:	^^^ this is why every Terran love to go lategame and Protoss doesn't?
	VB_Blake:	@crispy you can dodge emps too

[ToRSpookToR]

I cant really talk about balance as i am not really at a level where it comes into effect as much, i do however believe the zvt mu is very easy for Zerg as opposed to Terran, Terran has little room for error whilst Zerg can get away with blue ******* murder.

[nGenLight]

OP opened a can of worms!

My honest opinion based on my limited knowledge/experience. Don't blast me, only my opinion.

Terran early game > Protoss early game (Alot of guessing/limited information goes on here for the Protoss). NOTHING YOU SEE CAN BE TRUSTED FROM THE TERRAN.
Protoss late game > Terran late game
Terran needs to outplay Protoss in this MU, Protoss should not lose if they play "perfectly". It is ridiculously hard to do so though as you need to position your limited units at the correct places in response to the strategy that you are guessing(based on limited information) what the Terran is doing, and then have to make a decision between economy or army before your obs get to your opponents base.

Protoss vs Zerg - Quite balanced. A variety of timings are available to both races in this MU, and both races need to go quite high up the econ/tech tree to really put the pressure on their opponent. A pretty balanced late game to come with it. Only minor issues I still have a hard time thinking its fair is the super cheap dropships(mineral line threatening)/damage buffing overlords and how slow creep dissipates.

Terran vs Zerg - Terran players need to play near flawless to stand a chance in this MU, whereas Zerg can get away with a lot of mistakes because of the recent buffs.

Terran is definitely the weakest race at the moment. However that said, they are still the most dynamic race with more strategies and styles than the other two races. Too bad every creative gameplan by Terran players gets quickly figured out by Zerg players and lesser so, Protoss players. Still the race with the most micro potential, it is the hardest race to play right now, and maybe needs some help from the game creators(I can't believe I just said that).

Zerg seem pretty cheese-prone now due to the Queen and overlord buff, rendering some of the early game timings by other race, much less effective than before, allowing them to be even more greedier than before.

Quick Comments

	TAEdgE:	good stuff
	ToRSpookToR:	salute
	nirvAnA:	LightToT shares his ToTs!
	Nemo:	Awesome !
	Dox:	gold

[dippa]

tvp doesn't seem too bad if you can do some damage in the mid-game or at least get ahead economically, but if you enter the late game on an equal footing you just get destroyed. the flow of the matchup still feels good but.

tvz ... ugh ... i think terrans need time to work out a way to do some damage against 4 queens. i saw something cool on idra's stream where someone went 1 rax CC into reactor hellion, and they put a medivac with 8 marines + stim in the main while 4 hellions ran into the natural. only problem was it was close spots on antiga, so that really wouldn't work in a tournament -.-

(can't talk about other matchups, sorry -_-)

[SmirkToT]

its quite balanced now.
i believe that it will become worse when the new patches come

[inFeZa]

I think that protoss is completely imbalanced vs zerg. I can't seem to lose a game.

Quick Comments

	FsDronesInJail:	lol
	iVnStinger:	you are just a pro
	Pox:	no-one can handle the fluffball count

[TADivinity]

ZvZ so imbalanced WhAt ThE **** BliZZZZ???????????????

The Queen buff isnt a massive deal for me personally - although it is really nice to have a better chance at not losing an entire game because $400 worth of hellions slipped through to the nat / main even. Losing games like this was pretty freaking gay.

[Masterfuzzy]

I think its somewhat balanced, though sometimes one race will have a slight advantage over the other. People complain about balance after a patch because the strategies of the previous patch are no longer effective. Once people learn new build orders to deal with it, then you can determine things as OP or balanced.

[cruxSpoon]

When you start a race discussion this broad, its important to set parameters. First you have to define what OP is and then compare the races to that definition. For example, OP can basically just be potential of the race vs potential + skill level required. It could be as specific to the current macro metagame or as broad as including cheese. Then there are BoX series where certain races will be more "OP" in a longer BoX series due to sneakiness, build variations, etc. - All of this is just a "keep in mind" when talking about balance, since it is something that can get very heated very fast and usually because people argue from different standpoints of OP without realising it, causing a frustrating misunderstanding.

My thoughts!

In theory just head to head I think the game is fairly balanced. I feel however that the disparity in race winnings has to do with a few things (most already mentioned in this thread). I'll be mostly talking in reference to Terran as that is what I play

1. Skill level required - Terran is hardest but balanced on a few fronts
a) Most micro required, but most rewarding. Where Terran used to outmicro zergs with just splits vs mutaling, terran now has to split and dodge fungals which nullify micro, hard but doable. Against protoss where it used to be just kite, now that storms are fancy they have to be dodged too (and protoss are getting damn good at storming) as well as make sure not to get caught in forcefields. Of course it takes great micro on the other races to fungal and ff (not to take anything away).

b) Terran rely on timings to get ahead in midgame in order to be going to lategame on equal footing. These timings once scouted are generally held off. In TvZ a smart zerg can read a build and react to it with no 'real' loss to their current build. Same thing with protoss. When terran moves across the map, its spotted with obs/lings/overlords prompting plenty of time for both races to position and respond (applies in all matchups, not just terran). My point is, the reason terran have seen alot of success (the terran OP era) is that the builds the employ weren't figured out, now that they have been, it becomes player vs player skill (balanced!). I do feel however that in the metagame Terran is a bit behind now and therefore UP. Things that were seen in BW not apparent in current metagame is actively denying scouting. You'd see boxer turret his entire base to let no obs in, so he can do his legendary ghost/medvac/nuke/emp with vessel strats. Starcraft is a game of imperfect information. I feel Terran will start doing strats soon that leave the other races more in the dark, its like poker, it has to happen. (ZOMG what a rant, I think point made) TLDR: Terran need to hide intention abit more to get do well against Z and P who know how to deal with strats once scouted.

2. Macro Terran = More planning = Better execution required
a) I guess this bit could go in skill required too, but I put seperate cause it speaks more to race design. This is one of the reasons Terran FEELS UP (isn't UP though). All races require planning of strategy etc, however, Terran is the least forgiving I feel when you get it wrong. This conversation can get REALLY indepth so a proviso is I will just talk about game plan and buildings required. You can really go indepth with gas timings, expansion timings, attack timings, etc, but you guys would probably hate reading this wall of text. Ok new section cause this para is big!

b) Building/unit planning - For zerg its put one building down and make units out of hatcheries, simple right? You can make 6 mutas ro 36 off one spire. For protoss its a lil more complicated, they need more gateways but they can warp in any variety they want on the fly allowing you to adapt to the current situation. Terran can kinda do this to an extent with choice between marauders and marines. However, that requires the Terran to have a few rax's with techlabs, which hinders marine production. Instantly there is a trade off. For example, in TvP MKP goes 2 reactors and 1 tech lab, collosus build owns this (generally), If terran plans MKP build and protoss hides collosus tech well, then terran is in worse positiong than if he went 2 techlabs and 1 reactor (MKP for vs HT/Charge opening). Midgame I feel this is something all races face. I guess my point is, when terran has to switch tech, it takes longer than the other races. Lategame protoss - warp ins a different composition (minus collosus), zerg - press s and build whatever (cost of ultra cavern/greater spire), terran - lift and rebuild more techlabs/reactors, add starports to deal with air (should be doing it anyway imo lategame), Add more facts (TvZ), again should be doing anyways but is harder to plan than other races (even in TvT!). In response to a timing push when scouted protoss can warp in more stalkers (vs marine heavy) vs sentry/zealot (poor example but you get my point lol). Zerg might see a marauder hellion push coming and decide to mass ling or a few roaches depending on marauder count to deal with hellions etc. Terran have...well what they have lol. I think im going in circles now.

c) Resources required - Food for thought, terran buildings are more gas intensive due to addons required and the need for multiple facts/starports. Not going to discuss as this can get really indepth (I dont feel its an imbalance since other things offset this cost, also protoss tech very expensive etc).

Conclude you fool! - I dont think ANY races is OP atm, the things i've pointed out above are why I feel terran is suffering at the moment in their respective matchups. You'll find that skilled terrans can accomplish all those things (MKP, IMMVP, etc). I also feel at the extreme highest levels of play (probably that which we haven't seen yet) skill vs race abuse (for lack of better term) will converge and it really will be player vs player rather than race vs player. The metagame is always evolving and Terran are currently behind as Zergs and Protoss have started leaning to more "catch-all" builds. The game is young and it can only get better from here. Terran now need to evolve to the next level, and get their pa-pa-pa pokerfaces on!

Spoon out

[Chappo]

PvP late game is balanced, diverse and fun.
That is all that matters

Quick Comments

	|Erasmus|:	I suppose having a higher colossus count can be considered fun...
	FsDronesInJail:	That's some twisted, sick way of having fun

[Stallion]

I dislike balance threads as i look at this game and anytime i lose i go i lost not this race is ******* op etc which is what these threads lead to.

Having said that balance wise I think the game is balancedish minus some small problems. I find protoss is the worst designed race atm with good tech late game and no real early game harrassment unit. a lot of protoss strategies revolve around turtling to 3 base and getting those heavy tech units. For example I'm getting to the point with my macro I'm kinda just cruising macro wise and looking for cute harassment techniques to force a few extra lings or an extra bunker but its not really harassment when you compare it to how much damage hellions can do. Terran get a lot of crap because of the early days with 60 damage siege tanks etc that were op but i think they have been nerfed to the point the game is balanced and playing terran is now how well can you multitask with multiple drops and pushes at same time with spilting etc while macroing. Zerg are easy to see as overpowered in the sea community as the top players all seem to play it but i don't think thats the case. I just think zerg can counter protoss harrassment too easily and with ferrarilords shouldn't ever not have the right scouting information. idk too much about tvz but the mass queens thing and droning makes it start to feel like pvz in harrasment that doesn't kill a hatch seems pointless.

just my thoughts

Quick Comments

FLuX:

+1 for Ferrarilords

[VB_Rhuubarb]

I have no problems with the balance of any of the matchups. Just some of them can be somewhat boring/stupid in some portions of the game.

PvZ: When it devolves into Mothership (Archon) vs Broodlord/Infestor.
PvP: Late game colossus wars

But I'm hopeful that the tempest in HotS will change the dynamic of both those matchups. Even if its only role is to counter Colossus/Broods.

[Feddonator]

"Rock is overpowered, Paper is fine"
- Scissors

Quick Comments

iVnStinger:

LOL

[ETL.ViTaL]

I think p v p is overpowered for Protoss

[Ghosty]

Originally Posted by Feddonator

"Rock is overpowered, Paper is fine"
- Scissors

I found this quite funny x)

[Flaunt]

Zerg is ridiculously overpowered. We'll see a patch as soon as WCS is finished .

[Champi]

Creep dissipates way too slowly. an overlord can delay a third for far too long if it has fully saturated the area in creep.

the lategame between protoss and zerg is bad imo, too many times is the game is decided on an engagement between infestor broodlord, and mothership stalker archon

its not racially imbalanced, because either side can win, but the fact that it all depends on whether or not the vortex lands over all the broodlords to toilet them is in my opinion, a flawed and broken designed end game (looking forward to this being changed in HotS)

TvP is interesting, i think its balanced because it seems to me like a sea saw in terms of imbalance, in the early game i think terran has an advantage, in the mid game i think its balanced, in the late game i think protoss has the advantage, and then in the ultra late game the advantage returns to terran after they get mass orbitals and sack all but their gas scvs for mules to create a true 200/200 max army


I cant comment on TvZ as i have no knowlege or experience, but it looks pretty hard for terran since the queen buff to the untrained eye, again just due to creep. since hellions can no longer manage it, and the speed of which zergs spread it has multiplied by about 4x since they open with 4 queens now.


so to conclude i think the game is pretty amazingly balanced, with the exception of creep. i would like to see it dissipate much faster.

and i think HotS will shake up the matchups with the new units and mechanics so things like lategame pvz dont actually bother me as i know its only a matter of time before such things change.

[FaDe'Shampoo]

everything pretty balance imo

[faithHunter]

Only complaint I have right now is lategame TvP. They just can easily defend against drops in the midgame by warping in stalkers and units, and it just snowballs to the lategame where they can just warp in 20+ units in a middle of a battle. Not saying that they're imbalanced or anything. The deathball and their ability to reinforce in like 3 seconds and instantly getting into position is just really really tough to deal with as Terran.

Also, I simply cannot bear seeing my MMM army get melted away by 2 collosi in midgame TvP. :<

Welp, time to think of some stupidly powerful marine scv all in to use in TvP

Also, I feel as in the Queen buff wasn't really neccesary in TvZ. Zergs can already defend against hellion pressure with spines and walling off the entrance to the natural with queens and evo chambers. And if the hellion count gets out of control, 3-4 roaches should be able to defend against them and force them to ditch your base and creep.

One more thing: Tier 3 Terran units and Ravens - why u so useless :<

[Hijung]

I think it's rather balanced as it is, but I think Terran needs a buff or two, even as a Zerg I find ZvT the least-worrying match up of the four (inc. random) because it's been so explored and it's been played so much..

I don't know specifically in what department they need a buff in, I like the HotS idea of the new spidermine-esque units, but I think the execution of them are poor.

That, or Terran hasn't been explored fully yet. Which is remarkable, considering their previous position. Perhaps it's just their turn to be 'That' race. Zerg had a lot of it in the early history of Sc2, Protoss had a large period of being the 'UP' race, where 1/1/1 was simply not winnable..

So, unless it's virtually impossible to beat Zerg now, I think people need to stop doing fast hellion marine pushes/expansions, or expand upon it a bit, add something else into it. I don't know.

On the subject of Zerg, I like the race the way it is at the moment. Units are fragile early game, infestors are equal to marines as the best units in the game,

[Satu]

Of course the races aren't balanced, its an asymmetrical game, but they are getting it as close as possible to balanced. Atm, I think they are getting close to being as balanced as they will be able to ever make the game.

[Nemo]

I'm impressed at seing a thread about balance staying civil, mature and interesting. WP guys !

[NDG.Stitch]

I absolutely agree with what Light is saying.

I think Terran as I play it, is a very hard race to play. You have to play almost flawless games against Zerg to possibly win in a macro game. Definitely agree with a very informative explanation of TvP as well. I agree that there is so many different variations of TvP early game that is hard for Protoss to hold, but late game TvP is just really hard to play.

Terran is just very micro intensive and also requires a very high level of mechanics such as multitasking to be successful with it.

So I think the game isn't really balanced at an average players level, but on a high level it does seem balanced.

[Easy]

Zerg is okay in all the matchups
Protoss too
Terran has trouble in TvZ and TvP-
I feel like they need a reaper buff or some new openning to do on TvZ since the queen buff reactor helion is just for mapcontrol and third denial untill he moves out with the queens and rapes all your helions
And in TvP, even though I´m not a terran I think its just freaking OP that they can have 30 zealots warp in their base to defend a counter attack. You cant base race and most of the times it feels like you cant engage. But on the Early-mid game terran has the advantage.
So as far as i know its just trying to use your good stuff as much as possible

[ToRSpookToR]

i disagree my entire late game TvP is having 10 medivacs drop 5 different places as soon as toss moves out being maxed they have to come back and defend

[TN.Fitz]

I'd say no for TvZ. Currently with the new buff to queens it really negates any kind of early pressure from Terran. Zerg is now doing these 6 to 4 queen builds they can take expands without being punished, and spread the creep like no way they could before. The popular reactor hellions now no longer works because of increased range and because queens are so powerful now hellions only work in mass numbers. Banshees are even worse now because there are more queens on the map then there has every been before. Reapers now no longer work for the same reason as hellions do not work.

Terrans are struggling to figure out how to deal with this new build from Zergs. I think it is imbalanced for the time being but that is because Terran's have yet to actually deal with this new threat. Like what the GSL caster Artosis says "This will all go away in two weeks when Terran's figure out how to deal with this new zerg"

It almost feels like a super early BW hydra IMO. I mean they have the range and speed. These things are literally becoming the backbone of Zerg early early game armies. I'm really not sure if that was the intended use of the queen but it is sure what it seems to becoming.

I think this new patch gives Zergs a little too much freedom right now but that is not subject to change when the new builds come through. I wonder if the new attack range should be a cheap essential upgrade such as warp gate for toss. Make the upgrade long enough for Terran's to be able to harass somewhat. I mean if you go back to BW the Hydra was super powerful...when BOTH of its upgrades were done. Now here I purpose the same thing except for the queen.

Feel free to disagree with me however.

[TN.Fitz]

Originally Posted by SatuSPR

Of course the races aren't balanced, its an asymmetrical game, but they are getting it as close as possible to balanced. Atm, I think they are getting close to being as balanced as they will be able to ever make the game.

That I have to disagree with. It sounds like you think the game will never be balanced. You have to consider Brood War. Same three distinctive races and it ended up balanced but yea for sure SC2 CURRENTLY is not balanced.

[breadfan]

Originally Posted by TN.Fitz

That I have to disagree with. It sounds like you think the game will never be balanced. You have to consider Brood War. Same three distinctive races and it ended up balanced but yea for sure SC2 CURRENTLY is not balanced.

I think the point being made is that when people say BW was pretty well balanced, that doesn't mean it was definitively and perfectly balanced - it was good enough that everyone was like, yeah, this is a fair game, but the fact is that when you have each race with a different method of economy production, different methods of making buildings, and different requirements for tech paths and strengths of late game units, you can only ever get an approximation of balance.

Personally, I'm undecided. I think it's very likely we are seeing changes made to the game with the goal of transitioning into HotS more smoothly, so I think the latest changes are part of an incremental shift. Prior to that, I was happy. But then, I play terran.

[sRDante]

Why the hell would someone open such a stupid, pointless thread, this won't go anywhere... Surprised its not closed yet.

Quick Comments

	breadfan:	Well (s)he's fairly new here and trying to contribute to discussion. Might be a way to get to know forum personalities?
	TADivinity:	This is a shaking head/downvote. Your post is worse than anything currently on the site
	cruxSpoon:	why would someone respond with such a baseless pointless post that adds nothing to anything, surprised derp derp derp de
	TAavanar:	i completely agree this isnt going to go anywhere, all balance threads end up with ppl not discussing, just calling imba
	Jaywalk:	this thread proves why this community is different to many others. this discussion is civil and some great points raised
	Stallion:	acting in such a way deserves some hammer time imo BAKA GET ON THIS

[Crankenstein]

I feel like Terran is the weakest race at the moment and I was surprised to see many people in this thread echoing this sentiment.

I dislike the queen buff because of how it has effected the late-game. Fast thirds are much easier to hold now allowing Zergs to progress to their late-game much sooner and creep is now much easier to spread - even if you do manage to wipe out a few tumours the creep just comes straight back out. I feel like my heavily macro focused style has been punished by a patch that was implemented to assist Zergs in holding off cheese and early aggression.

As for TvP I am feeling a lot better about it lately as I have practised my mid-game aggression quite a lot which has allowed me to take a much faster 4th allowing me to hit the 16 minute mark a base or two up if things go well which allows me to play a late-game on a somewhat even footing. I agree with Lights sentiments though - To win in this matchup I have to really outplay my opponent.

And I don't like TvT at the moment - there are just so many possibilities in the early game in this matchup that I find it hard to keep track of everything. That's mostly a practice issues though... But it's SEA... good luck finding a Terran to practice against.

Balance aside the main reason I am starting to lose heart is that there are so few Terrans for me to look up to now. Thorzain and Demuslim are basically the only foreigner Terrans that I can really get behind. My hero Slayers Terrans have all fallen off the map.

I can't find any Terran streamers to watch either. Iaguz and Demuslim are fantastic but other than that there is what... Dragon? no thanks... MKP? Yeah if he isn't just streaming replays or off racing.. ForGG... I can only put up with so many 1 or 2 base games.

The biggest hit to my heart was reading Boxers interview where he said he is losing faith in Terran and is thinking of switiching race in HotS. If the Emperor deserts us... ... ...

I hope things pick up, I don't enjoy Zerg or Protoss at all so if I lose heart in Terran completely I'll probably just become a spectator.

[Sephyre]

Originally Posted by Feddonator

"Rock is overpowered, Paper is fine"
- Scissors

Sums it up

[Typhoon]

I QQ enough without having to post here and look like a massive tawt.

Terran is hard, whats new? :P

[Bloodmyst]

I 100% agree with Crankenstein.

What I would like to say though.... for what it's worth. I'm not sure if I like how T v Z and T v P matches are played out. Would you call it game design? It seems everything is going into the direction of "Who can be more greedier and get away with it?" This leads to like the first 8 minutes or so of the game being so boring as both players are playing passive to get their structures/tech/expos up. We might as well just start the game at the 8 - 10 minute mark.

Right now, all we see in;

T v Z = Zerg does some roach/bane all in or rushes to Hive tech for late game ownage. Terran trying to be as greedy as he can be whilst hoping to the SC2 gods he won't get all-ined. Then only to find the Zerg didn't all in and then he can start playing "catch up" for the rest of the game.

T v P = Whats to be said? MMMVG vs Deathball. MU is very repetitive and stale.

I miss it when players like TLO (when he was playing Terran) were utilizing some unorthodox builds back in the day. His ghost builds were e-mazing. We don't really see this kind of stuff anymore because a good portion of Terrans units are now lacking (nerfs).

EDIT: I always have a little chuckle to myself when people tell me Terran is the most flexible race.

[Ghosty]

Originally Posted by ETL.Soundwave

The game is very balanced right now.

Of course, I still think Protoss is ******* bullshit.

I can empathize with this guy. lol

[Meatex]

My feeling is protoss is totally broken
Not imba, not OP but broken.
Why?
Cause its so boring to play and boring to watch
Zvp = zerg holds all in with minimal damage, goes on to win
protoss gets third up game progresses to broodlord infestor spine wall standoff against mothership col archon deathball. Its no fun by any stretch of the imagination
Some pro protosses make it interesting with constant multi pronged attacks in late game but most just sit there and wait for zerg to get bored or clump up

[Fairyking]

For the most part I agree with Light. I think blizzard keeps it decently balanced and generally when things get a bit broken they fix it in time.

[FlashDrakE]

Trash

All jokes aside, the game is pretty balanced right now. Terran has some trouble against Zerg right now but I don't think the matchup is unplayable (the better player still wins most of the time)

[Malice]

Remember guys, the only thing important is that you have fun!

Quick Comments

TADivinity:

Shut up, Meg

[BearPack]

ZvT feels heavily zerg favoured in the early game, as all types of shenanigans can be held off with 4 or more queens.
ZvP feels very uncomfortable. Strange timings, people have finally gotten decent with forcefields, and immortal/sentry attacks make this matchup very uncomfortable, especially when forced to take an early third and try to be economically viable against chronoboosted +2 stalker armies.



In all seriousness, it's just a phase. Every matchup has had wild swings of balance throughout the games history, and it will pass while the races finally figure each other out.

God help me if I see protoss do something 1base. I'd probably just die.

[mGGMueX]

I find Terran to be the race I have the least success with, and I think it's because in tvz and tvp you have to play abusive in some way, either really greedy with expansions and upgrades or extremely aggressive. I don't think it's necessarily imbalanced, but it adds a diceroll element to those matchups IMO.

[ETL.ViTaL]

tvz is so hard to play now a days because zerg can easily get 3 bases and have decent creep spread so that whenever u push out they can just mass ling and you won't be able to do any damage. Then in the late game when zerg transitions in and out of brood lords to ultras its almost impossible for a terran to keep up with zergs transition capabilities.Also with the ghost nerf it is very difficult for terran to deal with brood lords with mass corrupter; upon seeing this the terran must go mass vikings with a few thors and then fight back a zerg who suddenly remaxes on 10 ultras with 80 lings

For me tvp is quite balanced as long as you get lots of vikings and ghosts and hit ur emps.

[Sephyre]

Winrates for June: http://minus.com/mLvjZlHez/1g

Note that Korean terrans seem to have adapted better to the queen change based on the stats.

[x5.Revenant]

Originally Posted by Sephyre

Winrates for June: http://minus.com/mLvjZlHez/1g

Note that Korean terrans seem to have adapted better to the queen change based on the stats.

The percentiles don't add up to 100 on some graphs.

[ToRDolo]

If what Sephyre said is true I guess SEA just might be experiencing the metagame lag haha

Personally I've always felt the game is fairly balanced, it's just that I'm not playing the matchup right if I keep losing to pushes at certain timings/aren't ready for tech switches.

Quick Comments

Pox:

supply blocked targa bane is totally imba though

[Bloodmyst]

Originally Posted by Sephyre

Winrates for June: http://minus.com/mLvjZlHez/1g

Note that Korean terrans seem to have adapted better to the queen change based on the stats.

No, those graphs are very much innaccurate.

If you look at the Tournaments this data was taken from, there were many Terrans that got walkovers, such as Jjakji and several other players (can't remember off the top of my head).

There a fair bit of other dodgy stuff about this graph as well. Poor data from whoever released this months win rates.

[inFeZa]

This thread is still going ?

T_T

[Sephyre]

Originally Posted by Bloodmyst

No, those graphs are very much innaccurate.

If you look at the Tournaments this data was taken from, there were many Terrans that got walkovers, such as Jjakji and several other players (can't remember off the top of my head).

There a fair bit of other dodgy stuff about this graph as well. Poor data from whoever released this months win rates.

It's done by SC2Stats, aka @SC2statistics on Twitter.

The same guys that do the winrate charts every month.

Given the sample size I don't believe a small number of walkovers are going to skew it.

[TADivinity]

In regards to Korea:
Wow, that ZvT graph is interesting considering all the commentary surrounding 'Z OP'.
Did the most recent patch go live in May? That would certainly help to understand why Zerg immediately boomed in the percentage - all those korean terran cheesers couldnt pull cheeky wins anymore xD.

All jokes aside, it looks like results in June evened out, and I would doubt any changes re: queens will be reverted. Except until you look at International results.
Looking at this suggests the KR players picked up on a metagame variation that the International scene hasnt??

[zaney]

I know this is an issue that will ALWAYS be enflamed... but my neutral, balanced oppinion after playing low leagues and watching high leagues..

Marines have a little (10-20%) high DPS
Mules can save a player in situations where the other two races would lose.

Summary: *considering expansions to be released
TvP: Metagame is too screwy to call
TvZ: Balanced*
PvZ: Balanced*

Note: I play zerg mostly, but intimate with protoss.


Broodlord may have too much health for protoss units to deal with in WoL

The collosus having units -underneath- feels unbalanced. A siege unit should take up space.