[x5.Phoenix]

Hey SC2SEA,

I am a Gold level Protoss but I am playing diamond opponents and I just came across a guy who did a stargate opening. This is the first time I have faced this and I had no idea how to react.

The replay is here: http://drop.sc/171115

Could anyone give me some advice as to why I lost this game and how I could have better reacted to this opening?

Thanks!

[Zanderax]

Always give your own analysis first. Try to figure out why you lost before troubling others. Post something. Even if you think it sound stupid

[x5.Phoenix]

Well obviously I could have gone DT's but at the time I sort of panicked when I saw it and didn't make that decision

[mGGSouth]

Hi PurePhoenix,

I'm only diamond but I think I can help you with some things, hopefully others will point out any inaccuracies with my analysis.

1. You float a lot of chrono boost early on, so just take a look at where you could spend that.

2. The chrono boost of the empty robo at 5.50 really hurts, make sure you get out an obs to go scout.

3. When you see the first phoenix at 6.50 I would go for blink straight away. What you definatley don't want to be doing is continuing to make robo units. Obviously you wouldn't go for colli, but you go immortals which is almost as bad. As you see in the battle, a few lifts from the phoenix and suddenly you army is so much weaker. Once you're feeling safe with blink I'd grab an expo and transition into charglelot archon for either a big 2 base timing or very quick 3rd before he starts to get lots of colli. I don't think going straight for DT's is a good idea because if he plays well his phoenix will scout it easily and he will have plent of time to get down the robo, though skipping blink and going straight for zealot archon might be an idea.

4. Also, once you see phoenix I like to start making probes again, simply because you don't want his phoneix to come in and kill 5 or 6 probes and leave you with just 20 probes.

5. You want to keep your non-stalkers with your stalkers; phoenix players love to come in and snap up some sentries and zealots.

6. I think when you have immortals + gate units vs phoenix + gate units you want to focus down the phoenix that are lifting your immortals with your stalkers ASAP, just to get that huge dps back into the battle.

7. The 11-12.30 minute mark is really where you lose the game, he comes in and kills some probes and you don't replace them until 12.30 and your economy falls behind. Once you start your expo you want to start chroning out some probes so you can saturate your nat as soon as it finishes. Also, don't forgot that proxy pylon when you push out.

From here you're just too far behind in the probe count and he can just overwhelm you with superior numbers. GG though, hope I have helped.

Quick Comments

	mGGAequitas:	or just dt rush like south does
	TheGentleman:	The mistake I noticed most was when you pushed out and forgot the forward pylon. You couldn't reinforce while your opponent could.
	x5.Phoenix:	Thanks for the help man!
	ROOTProbe:

[x5.Phoenix]

prOxiSouth I won't quote your whole reply to prevent a wall of text but thanks very much for all of this. I will try and digest all of this and fix these aspects.

Once again I appreciate your help!

Thankyou

Quick Comments

TCPLemminks:

It's called REP!

[Zanderax]

Ok, I watched your game and here are some pointers.

8:00 You see the Phoenixs = Stargate. Stop Immortals, get another gate and go for mass blink stalk. Against Stargate you will rip.
11:53 Dat Nexus - Kill it - Win
2 Base = 5 Gate Robo at least.
Collo was a good idea. But you need it fast than 15 minutes.
17:00 Retreat if you are outnumbered. Get another round and that Collo and you could have held that off. He had no sentries for FF to prevent you from escaping.
17:38 Don't run Collo away from Phoenix. Why? All it does over there is die and not do damage.
There you go, mull over that and if you are serious about steping up your game consider buying a subscription to the Grandmaster Manual. It is a incredible resource and will blow your mind and lift your game.
GL HF

[TheGentleman]

I haven't versed a lot of stargate PvP but from what I know the idea behind stargate PvP is to keep the enemy on edge while you grab yourself an expansion.

In my experience 2 basing Protoss are generally destroyed by a 1 basing Protoss. If you've gone 3 gate robo and scouted your opponent taking an expansion and making phoenix, you can just mass stalkers plus 2-3 immortals (maybe +1 if you feel like it?) and push out before the enemies economy truly kicks in. Best case scenario... you win! Most likely scenario... you force them back to one base and take an expansion of your own. Cannons on your mineral line will help protect against mass phoenix.

Note: I never actually watched your replay, that's just how I generally respond to a stargating player.

[Next_rim]

I'm not sure how pro the posters above are, but I completely disagree on their suggested response to phoenixes.

I'm master on EU, I play phoenixes 90% of the time. If you switch to blink stalkers or continue with gate-robo, you auto-lose. Why? Because after I scout a stalker switch, I stop phoenix production and drop down a robo. By the time you have enough stalkers to keep my phoenixes out of your base, I have 2-3 immortals and loads of zealots. I lift your sentries and bust your ramp, and you lose, ez mode.

100% correct response to phoenixes is forge, expansion and robo. Your goal is to have just enough stalkers to keep phoenixes away from mineral lines, and just enough cannons to defend the inevitable immortal bust. Forge will give you fast +1, and cannons will give you the edge over the attacker.

Here is a replay of me vs Chelch, a mid-master EU protoss (and a streamer), who is a very good pvp-er. He opened Parting-style 2-gate stalker pressure, and I had to go 3-gate into stargate (I usually go greedy and do 1-gate-stargate-robo). Either way, he did a perfect response, and I eventually lost. Check it out. Notice how I kept him pinned down, but when the +1 kicked in, he easily rolled over me.

http://www.sc2sea.com/replays.php?do=viewreplay&id=1110

[mGGSouth]

infeza and next rim, what do you do if he attacks with 3 gate stargate before the cannons are up at the nat. You have invested an extra 550 mins in forge and nexus so I can't see you holding if he has good lifts + sentry use but idk. Also, in the replay when the guy sees the stargate he immediantly throws down a TC and gets blink :P

[mGGAequitas]

Originally Posted by Next_rim

100% correct response to phoenixes is forge, expansion and robo.

i don't think you need to put a robo down as well as whatever tech you have, if you already have a robo thats fine and keep up production from it, but say you went twilight before scouting the pheonix, it's just as fine to get blink and then go into chargelot archon, use the tech you already have.

The most important thing though is definitely to expand, because pheonixes are a harass unit so don't help too much in a straight up fight, this means you have the advantage over your opponent you need to safely expand.

[iM yang]

Originally Posted by Aequitas

because pheonixes are a harass unit so don't help too much in a straight up fight

Have you played against phoenix? They're fuckin awesome in a straight up sight, you do need energy for that though, which can allow you to take an expansion..

Quick Comments

	inFeZa:	lifting immortals can turn the tide of battle so quickly.
	Halstrom:	Lifting sentries can bust ramp defense

[x5.Phoenix]

A lot of mixed responses here, I will try to digest it all. Thankyou!

[inFeZa]

I feel the best way to play vs a stargate opening (especially phoenix) is to cannon up (don't over cannon) expand and upgrade. just deal with them like mutas, but don't get storm because phoenix can't do 1/10th of the damage a muta ball can.

Stargate all-ins should be treated differently.

[eCKo`Tazerenix]

I agree with infenza. Drop a forge straight away and get cannons in your mineral lines whilst expanding. Get upgrades and blink and then play out the long game with an upgrade advantage.

[Akilos]

stalkers by the mineral line should be able to hold off long enough for the cannons to come out.

[Next_rim]

infeza and next rim, what do you do if he attacks with 3 gate stargate before the cannons are up at the nat. You have invested an extra 550 mins in forge and nexus so I can't see you holding if he has good lifts + sentry use but idk. Also, in the replay when the guy sees the stargate he immediantly throws down a TC and gets blink :P

TC is just in case, if I expanded, he would just spam stalkers and counter-push me. As for the all-in, as you can see from the replay, you just have to buy time till the +1 kicks in. Otherwise, you both are on the same level. You invest minerals into cannons, I invest gas into phoenixes.

[mGGMueX]

Isn't chargelot/archon with cannons a great response to phoenix? There's not really much he can do about it in a straight up fight because he won't have many colossi fast enough and lifing zealots is cost-inefficient.

[mR.bONG789]

Originally Posted by mGGMueX

Isn't chargelot/archon with cannons a great response to phoenix? There's not really much he can do about it in a straight up fight because he won't have many colossi fast enough and lifing zealots is cost-inefficient.

nah, the phoenix guy can just wall off his nat and turtle behind his wall while massing up colossi. you need a decent stalker ball to deter his phoenixes so u can start colossi of your own or he will just swoop in and trade a phoenix for a colossus if you dont have enough anti air. if you went charglot archon, you wont have enough to build up that stalker ball and he will just push and kill you once he gets enough colossus and archons.

[Next_rim]

Isn't chargelot/archon with cannons a great response to phoenix? There's not really much he can do about it in a straight up fight because he won't have many colossi fast enough and lifing zealots is cost-inefficient.

Chargelot-archon response to phoenixes usually ends up in phoenix guy getting DT's, and then it's a "hunt my obs" game.

[syfChadMann]

Pheonix openings crush 3gate robo's.. I play pheonix openings all the time and it rapes immortal timings.. cause you just lift the immortals and have a bigger gateway army.. gg

best thing to do vs Stargate openings - if you scout it early - go DTs.. if you scout it late.. blink stalkers and match their expansions if you can scout it. then just macro like a boss denying their pheonix's any use by not letting them pick off probes - you should then be a bit ahead - cause you haven't invested in stargates and pheonix.. so prep for a 2 base timing blink or chargelot/archon and go win..

this is if you didn't crush them early with DTs.. but if you 3gate robo idk what you should do to transition - probably get immortal stalker 2 base push..?

[Next_rim]

best thing to do vs Stargate openings - if you scout it early - go DTs.. if you scout it late.. blink stalkers and match their expansions if you can scout it. then just macro like a boss denying their pheonix's any use by not letting them pick off probes - you should then be a bit ahead - cause you haven't invested in stargates and pheonix.. so prep for a 2 base timing blink or chargelot/archon and go win..this is if you didn't crush them early with DTs.. but if you 3gate robo idk what you should do to transition - probably get immortal stalker 2 base push..?

Most of what you say is somewhat wrong. No, DT's are a bad option unless you have MC's timings. 3 phoenix arrive at your base before your DT shrine is done. Nothing stops opponent from blocking ramp and rushing robo + obs. I mean, I died to blind fast DT's few times, but each time I knew 100% they were coming, and just fucked up my ramp block.

If you got gate-robo-gate-gate, then best response (as mentioned above) is forge and nexus (TC with blink optional). Same true for gate-gate-gate-robo.