[LordByrnsy]

SC2SEA Championship League A
Week 8

Game1: GSL Antiga Shipyard
Game2: GSL Daybreak
Game3: MLG The Shattered Temple
Game4: GSL Dual Sight
Ace match: ESV Korhal Compound

+ [map pool loser picks no veto] +

MLG Taldarim Altar, MLG Metalopolis, MLG Shakuras Plateau, GSL Antiga Shipyard, GSL Daybreak, MLG The Shattered Temple, GSL Dual Sight, ESV Cloud Kingdom ,ESV Korhal Compound

Tuesday 6th March 2012


9.00PM AEDT :Clan Onslaught VS nRv

+ [Matchup] +

lGdFai Game1: GSL Antiga Shipyard Savior [WO] 0-2
onsXetech Game2: GSL Daybreak Kez 2-0
zFxJYoong Game3: MLG The Shattered Temple Arden 1-2
onsKozoGame4: GSL Dual Sight Churlz 2-0
onsZero Ace match: ESV Korhal Compound nRvHavoC 0-2

nRv win 4-2

9.00PM AEDT :WNG VS TA

+ [Matchup] +

wTSkrawl Game1: GSL Antiga Shipyard TAsivvon 2-1
MrToast Game2: GSL Daybreak TANoodle 0-2
wTerA Game3: MLG The Shattered Temple TAdippa 0-2
wTJackGame4: GSL Dual Sight TAavanar 2-0
wTinte Ace match: ESV Korhal Compound TAFourby 2-1

wT wins 4-2

9.00PM AEDT :crux VS iRL

+ [Matchup] +

cruxDoc Game1: GSL Antiga Shipyard iRLProAnnn (WEDNESDAY - 7PM) 0-2
cruxNXZ Game2: GSL Daybreak GGBinu 0-2
cruxKiisS/Zoom Game3: MLG The Shattered Temple iRLGoldFish (WEDNEsDAY - 7PM) 2-1
cruxEzdrid Game4: GSL Dual Sight Lizerg (WEDNESDAY - 8PM) 0-2
cruxDelete Ace match: ESV Korhal Compound iRLKyzersoze (WEDNESDAY - 7PM) 0-2

iRL wins 5-1

Teams with no games this week:
Team tDp
SPR
STARSOC

Note to the managers: Lineups will be due on the 5th March. If you need a time change of your match please contact the manager of the corresponding team and confirm with them first.

Current Standings

Team	Win	Loss	Draw	Recorded Wins	Points
clan onslaught	6	1	1	17	19
nRv "Girlfriend name is left hand"	4	1	1	11	13
Team tDp and friends	4	4	0	11	12
SPR Team2	3	1	2	11	11
STARSOC	3	3	2	11	11
iWNGWNG - mOOOOOOOO Paradise	3	0	2	9	11
iRL - Team I love Binu	3	2	1	9	10
crux-Stallions men of war	3	1	1	7	10
TA- The Pelican Fetishists	2	0	1	7	7
**Table not updated as of yet due to last weeks submissions not finalized**

Any caster interested to cast one of these games, please let either myself or Stallion know through pm and contact in the thread so we can try and get as many people watching as possible!


If there is anything else you would like to see in this thread in future weeks please feel free to drop a comment below so our friendly admin team can try and make this as enjoyable for everyone as possible.
Main T2 thread: http://www.sc2sea.com/showthread.php?t=3245

[dippa]

wtf how has TA only played 3 matches and others have played 8

[Stallion]

Originally Posted by dippa

wtf how has TA only played 3 matches and others have played 8

I'm 99% sure we havnt updated it fully :P

[dippa]

was gonna say, i knew we had a few byes but couldn't have had _that_ many

how many byes have we had, incidentally?

[LordByrnsy]

Originally Posted by dippa

was gonna say, i knew we had a few byes but couldn't have had _that_ many

how many byes have we had, incidentally?

i think TA have had all their bye's now. they have like 4 or 5 more games left to play.... basically i think they are in every week from here on =)

[souljah]

For crux vs iRl, when they say Wednesday 7PM, do they mean 7PM SGT or 7PM AEDT because if it's the latter, I won't be able to make it

[ProAnnn]

Originally Posted by souljah

For crux vs iRl, when they say Wednesday 7PM, do they mean 7PM SGT or 7PM AEDT because if it's the latter, I won't be able to make it

6PM SGT. The dual sight and the daybreak game may be delayed by 1-2 hours as my players need to get home from work.

[Stallion]

Originally Posted by souljah

For crux vs iRl, when they say Wednesday 7PM, do they mean 7PM SGT or 7PM AEDT because if it's the latter, I won't be able to make it

Originally Posted by iRLProAnnn

6PM SGT. The dual sight and the daybreak game may be delayed by 1-2 hours as my players need to get home from work.

yep all games apart from these at normal time and is just one hour from what i got on eldrids game? i could be wrong shall check email but as i said most players have to sleep for things earlish also Bryney you shouldn't put nxz up there if irl havnt realised a player or race at least thats really unfair

[LordByrnsy]

Originally Posted by cruxStallion

Bryney you shouldn't put nxz up there if irl havnt realised a player or race at least thats really unfair

oh yeah. my bad. They did submit it ... i just couldnt put it up cus i had to go to work

Quick Comments

Stallion:

aaaa i c <3

[calcifer19]

ok i just talk alittle


sry for my bad english
i dont want any more drama

first they adding 2 players into their roster with no sub left

Originally Posted by nRvPickleWeasel

nRv vs SPR

DelhiWarrior 2-1 LucienSPR
Churlz* 0-2 tbkSPR
Kez 1-2 SatuSPR
Auron* 2-0 NoThanxSPR
Rift* 2-1 BlitzSPR (Ace match)

nRv wins 4-2 against SPR. Thanks for games guys ggwp all!

* = substitutes. All 3 subs used for nRv, will be a tight next 2 months.

for Arden's game the result is not legal and does not count as 1 point for them

secondly

i asked pricke and savior to reschedule they agree to resechedule to wendnesday they both said ok and i said ok then i left conv and got dc twice, now they saying this never happend and want to take the walk over


thirdly, we initially rearreanged game 4, ace and 3 to play first.

xetech loged on while we still watching streaming of game ace

they refuse xetech to play kez because xetech was just little late and says its walk over and did no tell me anything

[SLCN.Kez]

1st vs 2nd come at us bro!!

Quick Comments

x5_Bard:

you sure do like bros coming on you

[souljah]

So our matches are at the usual time, tomorrow?

[Stallion]

Originally Posted by souljah

So our matches are at the usual time, tomorrow?

I believe its only a time delay on eldrids match as thats all i've recieved. dw il be online to sort out whats going on

edit: misinterpretation in the emails between us so yes all tomorrow if not good we will rearrange for later in week

ok cruxDoc and cruxDelete's games are wednesday normal time cruxEldrids game is gona be either an hour later tomorrow. cruxNXZ and cruxKiisS are going to be on saturday

[SilentNoodle]

MrToast was rude and hurt my feelings

[TAEdgE]

lol what did he say noodle?

[SilentNoodle]

he was saying things about TA and then he blocked me in game3 and paused, then unpaused without seeing if i was ready, etc lol

Quick Comments

Frogmite:

noodle is cool

[MrToast]

Noodle wouldn't stop talking to me even when I asked him to stop so I was forced to block him during our match which I had to pause for.
I said 'Rdy' after I blocked him and it was paused for under a second so I assumed he was ready and unpaused.
Noodle is just blowing things out of proportion

[TAEdgE]

Noodle what have I told you about making sure to stick by your 'Silent' in your name!

edit: nothing! but this came up earlier

and to Toast, i wouldn't say you were forced to do anything. Noodle is legitimately one of the more quiet people I know so do you have the chat log (sc2gears of in game)? Just curious

[SilentNoodle]

everyone's so serious, i love it

[InteGrand]

Here's summary of story. Toast plays terran the imba race, so according to his understand, he should never lose games since terran is incredibly imba, and blizzard blessed terran with alot of gifts, so toast feels special about being the imba gifted race. But noodle beat toast in game 1 with an attack and that hurt toasts' massive ego because as an imba terran he's never tasted defeat, especially from the hand of the shitty zerg race. So he was slightly butt hurt and started taking little jabs here adn there, noodle sadly didn't stay silent, failed to containing his building rage toward the imba terran race and talked back to toasot about his lack of self-respect for playing that race.

And so, this sparked the infinite war, will humanity presevere? Probably because blizzzrd will just buff terran again.

You are welcome for my fantastic english writting skills, i got 83% in my english exam for year 12, pretty gosu right?

Quick Comments

	MrToast:	You're bad son
	SilentNoodle:	this is basically what happened :D hahaha
	Frogmite:	keep the imba stuff for you or post them on bnet forums
	TAEdgE:	i think it's an inside joke/story frog!
	Xenomorph:	only 83%?? now thats just sad...

[Stallion]

Guys I/we have had enough e drama for the week so lets just leave it at what happened happened and move on drop/leave and forgive and forget etc. I'm sure MrToast didn't mean anything negative towards Noodle or TA.

Even if he did say anything negative we all do some dumb things sometimes and regret it later so please just leave this here before this escalates.

Quick Comments

	Frogmite:
	x5.Revenant:	HeyUWhyNoDrama?

[TAEdgE]

Originally Posted by cruxStallion

Guys I/we have had enough e drama for the week so lets just leave it at what happened happened and move on drop/leave and forgive and forget etc. I'm sure MrToast didn't mean anything negative towards Noodle or TA.

Even if he did say anything negative we all do some dumb things sometimes and regret it later so please just leave this here before this escalates.

I sorted it in Battle.net sir stallion, it is all good now

Quick Comments

Stallion:

your my hero <3

[Snx.FigJig]

ons vs nRv
lGdFai 0-2 Savior [WO]
onsXetech 2-0 Kez
zFxJYoong 1-2 Arden
onsKozo 2-0 Churlz
onsZero 0-2 nRvHavoC

nRv win 4-2.

Quick Comments

	TAEdgE:	ah a guy using Savior ^O^
	Frogmite:	I gave you an infraction, you need to respect the admins work instead of posting stupid comment as you did
	ROOTPetraeus:	jesus
	ToRSpartaz:	No, dont do that
	TCPLemminks:	for the REAL results.....

[Stallion]

Originally Posted by nRvPickleWeasel

ons vs nRv
lGdFai 0-2 Savior [WO]
onsXetech 0-2 Kez [WO]
zFxJYoong 1-2 Arden
onsKozo 2-0 Churlz
onsZero 0-2 nRvHavoC

nRv win 5-1.

what happened? just no shows?

[calcifer19]

the entire seris was unfair for ons


i would like talk to admin

Quick Comments

x5_Bard:

rubbish. 2 of your players didnt turn up and you demanded reschedules.

[ProAnnn]

Originally Posted by calcifer19

the entire seris was unfair for ons


i would like talk to admin

Would you like to elaborate?

[BAD.BiGbiRd]

I like to play games guyssssss

[InteGrand]

Winter nights vs TA Incomplete

wTSkrawl 0-0 TAsivvon (postpone)
wTMrToast 2-1 TANoodle done
wTEra 0-0 TAdippa (postpone)
wTRage 0-2 TAavanar done
(wTJack tragically passed away 1 hour before the SEACL, rage sub-in)
wTinte 2-1 TAFourby done

Quick Comments

	phoney:	im sorry for your loss :(
	ROOTPetraeus:	jack didn't actually die just so you know.
	BaKaiNu:	Condolences.

[x5_Bard]

Calcifer stop lying. Ive had enough of it.

The rule clearly states that you have 15 minutes to organise a sub if a player doesnt show up. All 5 of nerves players were online, 3 of yours were. You specifically told me that you wanted all games played at once, however only 3 of your players were online, you then did not organise subs or anything. It is not nerve's responsibility to make sure you have players available to play IT IS YOURS.

Xetech and Kez actually did play, the score was Xetech 2 Kez 0. This was due to Kez agreeing to, 3 hours after they were meant to play. How is this fair for someone to wait around for 1-2 hours for their match and then get told they have to reschedule it by you? This is absolute rubbish and you are kicking up a fuss for no reason. You are clearly in the wrong. Just take the loss and in the future make sure your players show up on time and if they dont you have a sub available.

I really dont understand why this is still going on, the rule clearly states that if a player no shows within 15 mins their opponent is awarded a walkover.

[calcifer19]

Originally Posted by nRvBard

Calcifer stop lying. Ive had enough of it.

The rule clearly states that you have 15 minutes to organise a sub if a player doesnt show up. All 5 of nerves players were online, 3 of yours were. You specifically told me that you wanted all games played at once, however only 3 of your players were online, you then did not organise subs or anything. It is not nerve's responsibility to make sure you have players available to play IT IS YOURS.

Xetech and Kez actually did play, the score was Xetech 2 Kez 0. This was due to Kez agreeing to, 3 hours after they were meant to play. How is this fair for someone to wait around for 1-2 hours for their match and then get told they have to reschedule it by you? This is absolute rubbish and you are kicking up a fuss for no reason. You are clearly in the wrong. Just take the loss and in the future make sure your players show up on time and if they dont you have a sub available.

I really dont understand why this is still going on, the rule clearly states that if a player no shows within 15 mins their opponent is awarded a walkover.

15 mins no show means i cannot use sub ?? so all 15mins no show = forfeit ?? now ? how many sub nRv used . yes i told u i want all game once later u guys just want streaming 1 by 1 ~ so i let go, xetech was waiting for kez beocause of stream he is in , so how come so 1 - 2 hour late, by join the ob game kez agree to delay his game

Quick Comments

	ProAnnn:	Reasonable.
	Snx.FigJig:	2 retards in one post

[x5_Bard]

"yes i told u i want all game once later u guys just want streaming 1 by 1 ~ so i let go"

What!? Are you serious? I asked you specifically if you wanted to do all the games at once or 1 after the other, you said all at once. It is clearly in the vod.

EDIT: Calcifer "xetech was waiting for kez beocause of stream he is in" doesnt change the fact that xetech was late. And you could have used the sub, there was nothing stopping you.

And why dont you actually have a look at this from saviors point of view.

Here I am rocking up to play a game at 11pm NZ time. My opponent is not online. So I wait. I am then told by the clan leader that he wont be coming online and that I need to reschedule with him. I attempt to reschedule and I am then told that those times dont work and that I need to do it when my opponent also can. After alot of debate the admins have now decided that I have to play my opponent regardless and if I dont show up he gets the walkover.

Seriously? If our player THAT SHOWED UP ONTIME AND READY TO PLAY, does not reschedule our opponent gets the walkover? I cannot honestly beleive that was the decision made. Ons dont have to use a sub, dont get any sort of negative impact. Meanwhile savior is now in the position where he has to organise a new time despite the fact that he obeyed the rules and showed up on time. Im sorry I cannot contemplate that the admins could actually come to this conclusion. You are punishing the player and team that was there on time and ready to play.

EDIT2: This is a screenshot from savior.

+ Show +

Quick Comments

LordByrnsy:

you shouldnt post things that havent been finally decided on yet

[Snx.FigJig]

You asked for a sub 2hrs later. This is getting ******* ridiculous.

[nirvAnA]

take it off the forums and with your league admins on skype guys. they will make a decision if both of you explain your cases civilly, name calling not going to help anyone.

Quick Comments

LordByrnsy:

voice of reason :)

[wTlzq]

Im not taking any sides, but most clans up to this point have been very flexible with the rescheduling of the games. Because all in all, we are just looking to play the games.

but ultimately the rules were set from the beginning...

Quick Comments

Snx.FigJig:

not rules anymore y0

[InteGrand]

I am taking side with non-nRv. SEACL T2 is not GSTL, we are not going after a 10k prize, most of us are jus here coz we like this game. Yes, the rule said 15 min walk over, blah blah, but are we really in such a rush that we just have to get the game done and over with in one day? Most hotels don't put up signs saying you have to give tips, but people still do it. Why? Coz nobody is so strict over 10 dollars that they'd rather kill their holiday mood over it. nRv is clearly (very very very very) dedicated to SEACL, i guess that's not a bad thing? maybe?

Quick Comments

	Snx.FigJig:	no
	Snx.Mufasa:	terrible attitude
	ProAnnn:	this

[LordByrnsy]

Hi there,
I'm just letting people know whats going on and keeping a record on the thread.
Unfortunately I was rather late in showing up for the SEACL for todays games (I forgot it was on.. my bad)
And while I was away there was a communication break down between NRV and Ons which I feel I could have helped resolved if I had been present. Because of this I have stepped in to handle the situation and have rescheduled the match to sunday 9pm AEDT 6pm SGT and awarded both teams a free sub for the particular match.
This is by no means the best or worst solution but I feel that it is the one that best fits the spirit of the SEACL. Take it as it is and please enjoy the rest of the season.
-LordByrnsy
Your Friendly Neighborhood SEACL Admin

Quick Comments

	x5_Bard:	why do they get awarded a sub for not playing by the rules
	nirvAnA:

[Xenomorph]

I seriously think that all SEAL admins should get together and refine the rules on subs/wildcards/walkovers/rescheduling, as the current ones allow for sh*t storms to easily occur (the above situation is an example, and the situation I had with benji for SPR vs xGKing is another). Further regulations, rules and methods need to be put in place so we can avoid this kind of thing. If this is implemented, the future seasons of SEAL will be better off.

Just my 2 cents anyway, not trying to cause a huge argument

Cheers,

XenomorphSPR - manager

Quick Comments

x5_Bard:

100% agree.

[Snx.FigJig]

May not be on for force rescheduled match for ons and nRv. nRvReere.210 or Naaraa.451 or nRvGRiM.550 will be on to oversee it.

Calc, this is how you inform people of any changes. Learn from this.

[Frogmite]

Ok, i'll step up because i saw many things i don't like in this thread.

First:

Originally Posted by nRvPickleWeasel

Real result. Next one will be the result changed by admins going against the rules.

I gave you an infraction, rules says that you have to respect admins work, thing that you obvisouly didn't do here. Second thing, we don't go against the rules.

Second:

It's admin's role to give walkover or not. Unless both team leader agrees for a walkover, you need an admin to witness what is going on. Unless you can prove that your players were all connected and the other were not for 15 minutes after the start.

Third:

Rules are very clear, but never make justice yourselves, always ask admins. If not tier 2 admins ask myself or NirvAnA there will always be someone connected.


To prevent players from simply getting walkovered, we are introducing a "Substitution feature". Teams are given a limited number of "Substitue chances" and anyone on a team's roster can be used as a substitute to replace a no show. Players can even use this feature to get a more favorable matchup but that is strongly not advised as you would be using up your precious Substitution chances when you legitimately need a replacement. This is to prevent abuse when admins are unable to determine if people are "purposely not showing". All tiers will have this substitute feature but it will vary depending on the league you are in.
Tiers 1-2 will only be allowed 3 subs.
Tiers 3 will be allowed 5 subs.
Tiers 4 will be allowed 8 subs
Tier 5 will be allowed up to 10 subs.
This also adds a certain element of strategy should all your players show up punctually all the time. To use a substitute:

1) Player must be on the official team roster.
2) Player must not be already playing a game on that day.
3) Team must not have exceeded its substitution limit, and if there is a dispute the admin must be notified.
4) Inform the admin.

Should you fail to have any substitutes left and your player does not show, the match will end in a 2-0 score in the present player's favour. So be very careful with your substitutions! Not showing up 15 minutes after match time will result in the walkover.

Fourth:

To Onslaught: it's not the first time your players are late for a seacl game. I'll give you a warning. It's not GSTL as someone said but you have to respect other teams as well. I sincerely hope it's the last time this is hapenning.

To nRv: I don't want to see any more stuff like " admins don't do their jobs". We all spend a lot of time making this clan league and these kind of comments are not welcome. If you have a problem we are here to take decisions, if you disagree then you have to prove your points.

To both teams: i hope it's the last time we see this. We are organizing SEACL for clans to enjoy a friendly competition, not sure we'll allow such behaviour from teams pretending to access tier1.

Quick Comments

	Snx.FigJig:	contradicted what T2 admins discussed, by this we shouldn't be forced to reschedule. gg
	TAEdgE:	Counter-acting retarded amounts of neg rep
	x5.Revenant:
	Nemo:	Like a BOSS !
	ROOTPetraeus:
	nirvAnA:

[x5_Bard]

Originally Posted by Frogmite

"if you disagree then you have to prove your points."

I'm pretty confident I can.

Originally Posted by Frogmite

Not showing up 15 minutes after match time will result in the walkover.

This part of the rule feels like it has been bent?

Originally Posted by Frogmite

To prevent players from simply getting walkovered, we are introducing a "Substitution feature".

This isnt the part of the rule that was questioned, basically the opposing team ons wanted to reschedule while Nerve wanted either a substitution to take place or have the game walkovered. I feel that a reschedule has to be agreed upon by both teams as there is no real rule and limitations to it. Essentially the team rescheduling has the advantage as they are not having to use a substitute for the game.

Originally Posted by Frogmite

not sure we'll allow such behaviour from teams pretending to access tier1.

It's quite bad mannered to suggest both teams are "pretending" to be tier 1. I'm quite confident our team can compete at a tier 1 level. I think we showed that in SEACC (well havoc did ^^).

In terms of admins, you guys cant claim you dont have any faults or always make correct decisions. Your human, we all know that. But in this case you are clearly siding with clan ons. Not only are they getting a substitute for this game incase their player cant make it but they are getting a reschedule for a game that they needed to use a substitute on. I dont feel this is fair on future teams playing clan ons, as substitutes are really key in this competition, something that Nerve has keenly felt.

[Frogmite]

Originally Posted by nRvBard

I'm pretty confident I can.


This part of the rule feels like it has been bent?



This isnt the part of the rule that was questioned, basically the opposing team ons wanted to reschedule while Nerve wanted either a substitution to take place or have the game walkovered. I feel that a reschedule has to be agreed upon by both teams as there is no real rule and limitations to it. Essentially the team rescheduling has the advantage as they are not having to use a substitute for the game.


It's quite bad mannered to suggest both teams are "pretending" to be tier 1. I'm quite confident our team can compete at a tier 1 level. I think we showed that in SEACC (well havoc did ^^).

In terms of admins, you guys cant claim you dont have any faults or always make correct decisions. Your human, we all know that. But in this case you are clearly siding with clan ons. Not only are they getting a substitute for this game incase their player cant make it but they are getting a reschedule for a game that they needed to use a substitute on. I dont feel this is fair on future teams playing clan ons, as substitutes are really key in this competition, something that Nerve has keenly felt.

We're not siding anyone.

If you can show me that no onslaught players were not connected 15 minutes after the start of the game we'll give the walkover.

What i mean for the tier 1 thing, i wanted to mean that your teams can both be in tier 1 next season and that i don't want to see such a mess hapening because you guys can't agree on something (whoever the fault belongs to) and blaming the admins for their decisions.

[x5_Bard]

I dont see how the 15minute rule only applies to the entire clan and not individual players? Considering its listing after the substitution rule and how it is designed to prevent single players from getting walkovered you can probably see how some of us feel it is regarding single players as well.

Can you please elaborate on the exact rules for individual players not showing up and then the clan leader asking for a reschedule in this regard then? Should a substitute be used in this case? Which team decides if a reschedule can happen?

Also please dont feel that I am arguing with you simply for the "fun" of it. As this is the first season problems are bound to crop up and talking them out can sometimes result in a workable solution/rule for future games/seasons.

EDIT: I may have misread your post ^^ I can actually prove on my vod i beleive that both Xetech and Fai were absent at both the start and after 15 mins from game time

EDIT: http://www.twitch.tv/bard123/b/310791383 at 26:15 onwards you can clearly see the time at the bottom right 8:51 (Adelaide time) so 9:21 server. And you will see the 2 of their players not online. I even scroll through the chat!

Quick Comments

Snx.FigJig:

evidence!

[Frogmite]

Originally Posted by nRvBard

I dont see how the 15minute rule only applies to the entire clan and not individual players? Considering its listing after the substitution rule and how it is designed to prevent single players from getting walkovered you can probably see how some of us feel it is regarding single players as well.

Can you please elaborate on the exact rules for individual players not showing up and then the clan leader asking for a reschedule in this regard then? Should a substitute be used in this case? Which team decides if a reschedule can happen?

Also please dont feel that I am arguing with you simply for the "fun" of it. As this is the first season problems are bound to crop up and talking them out can sometimes result in a workable solution/rule for future games/seasons.

The rule also applies for individual players.
The players shall all be present at the time of match kick-off, especially when not streamed.
You are in your rights to ask for a walkover in that case, it happened many times since the start of the league in the 5 divisions. My only point is that if you can't get the agreement of the other team leader then you need to speak to an admin, majority of us were connected and you can ask us. Every week players of the 5 divisions ask me questions in-game when they want admin to take decisions.

Admins took the decision to replay those games on sunday 9PM AEDT. If you have any comments regarding this PM me. I am always free to discuss on disagreements.

Good luck to both teams for the sunday games.

[Reere]

Just gonna sum this up, and give my opinions:

All those claiming that nRv is not flexible, and follows the rule too strictly, I must disagree with you. Putting this incident aside, for all those managers/admins/players that have dealt personally with myself or Pickle, have we been such asses about rescheduling or subs? We've pretty much agree'd or negotiated with anyone that's come up to us that wanted a change.

Today's incident was different because we were given no prior notice. It wasn't that 15min on the dot, no player shows up so we take the WO. It was about 2 hours, before one of the missing players show'd up, and another one of the players didn't show up at all. If a team has a player 30min-1hr late, so far it's happened before and we've let the games go on anyway. Today's incident was extreme. Due to the fatigue of our players, we decided to take a WO for a 2hr lateness or no-show. Honestly if this was flipped around, and my players were late for 2hrs or never show'd, I'd give our opponents a WO on the spot.

The rule of needing an admin to permit the walkover, is our mistake that we overlooked. As we thought it would be consensus to all that 2hrs/noshow means WO.

As events were very heated today, I apologize on behalf of the whole nRv if any harsh words or attitudes were exchanged. We train hard, and compete hard to become the best that we can be. The frustration that games could not be played as planned erupted as we train very hard each week for SEACL, and we are sorry for that.

To all Admins/Managers, we nRv mean no disrespect. We appreciate and acknowledge what all of you have done to make SEACL#2 possible. What happened today, will be considered a minor road bump. Please keep doing what all of you are doing, the SEA scene would be nowhere without you guys. We are sorry if our emotions get the best of us.

Quick Comments

	crAzerk:
	Frogmite:	nice post
	x5_Bard:	<3
	phoney:
	LordByrnsy:	great post
	nirvAnA:	thats how you state your case! <3
	Stallion:	an excellent post sir *takes hat off*
	AxSGRiM:
	ToRDolo:	<3 Reere
	xGKingdelete:
	[TA]LoSt:

[crAzerk]

Just to clarify Frog's point in case you don't get it, the main idea is that many admins such as Frog himself were online, but noone messaged them regarding the walkover. You are entitled to the walkover but you need to inform an admin about it, rather than just 'automatically claim it'.

EDIT: Thanks Reere for your post

Quick Comments

Frogmite:

my engrish is terribad. thanks

[TAEdgE]

.. and Stallion - to think, you thought the other issue was gonna cause drama haha. YOU CAN'T ESCAPE IT!

Quick Comments

Stallion:

haha can't escape you either it seems :P

[BAD.BiGbiRd]

This argument hurt my brain almost as much as watching Elfi play PvP

Quick Comments

	neKo:	was that really necessary
	Aiya:	wow
	Stallion:	LOL it made my head hurt too :P
	AxSGRiM:	agreed brohan.
	syfChadMann:
	ToRSpartaz:	^^

[xetech]

I didn't want to post at all since I thought Brynsy had come to a decision on the matter, but since people keep adding to the discussion, I'll input my 2 cents as well.

First and foremost I do not disagree that we were at fault for being late. However putting that aside for a minute I would like to give our side of the story since Calcifer's English is so bad, he has trouble communicating his point across alone.

So taking whats been said in this thread, if there is a dispute of any sort, we need to take it to an admin. Unfortunately, neither party did manage to do so at the time of the disagreements today so it falls to an admin to make a decision in retrospect.

I believe Brynsy's subsequent judgement was a fair one. It's not a matter of whether ONS were late or not, I think everybody knows that we did have 2 late people, but a matter of misunderstanding and "communication breakdown" as Brynsy so greatly put it. Why? Let me explain.

The games in question are mainly game 1, game 2 but also a side point on game 3.

Game 3 first. This match happened no problems, results were a 2-1 win for Arden. But calcifer wanted to raise the point that Arden was a roster change this week and was just wondering where he popped out from and whether this change was legit in the first place.

Game 2 was my game. Admittedly I was late and I accept all responsibility for that, and understand their reasons for wanting a w/o. However I was not 3 hrs late as hinted, I was 45 minutes late, and was actually watching the stream waiting for my game because I thought we were running on a game by game basis (which has been the norm with streamed games). I know you argued that Calcifer said he wanted all games to be played simultaneously but given what happened afterwards (games were played consecutively - kozo, zero then yoong, we reasoned this meant that we would be instead be playing one by one). I could have actually started playing at about 6:50 SGT, I even went in the nerve gaming channel and talked to havoc there but Kez was in the midst of ladder games (no fault of his). However as yoong's game ended I was told my game wasn't happening... Nonetheless after a bit of discussion Kez was nice enough to play me anyway, so this issue was resolved. Thus this game doesn't really warrant further discussion. Thank you Kez for your sportsmanship!

Now to game 1. ONS was waiting for Fai to show up but unfortunately he didn't turn up on time. Calcifer communicated this to NRV. From my understanding of what calcifer said, nrv agreed to wait (for 15 minutes I assume since this is the w/o time limit). However during this time calcifer was negotiating with nrv (pickle and savior) to possibly reschedule the match since he couldn't contact Fai and was worried he wouldn't show up anytime soon. The problem lies here. Somewhere along the lines calcifer was led to believe that savior agreed to a reschedule. (As a side note when I logged on calcifer said to me: ur playing after yoong; to which i replied what about the other games?; and calcifer said, (amongst other things) Fai's game was rescheduled). Note this was BEFORE the drama started where we found out that Fai's game was walkovered so theres little reason for Calcifer to lie to me at this stage which makes me believe, and I hope you all join me in believing, that he honestly thought nrv had agreed to a rescheduling of game 1.

Now from our perspective, if we thought a game was to be rescheduled, why would we need to do anything else? Everything is dandy right? It was not until yoongs game ended, which I think was about 8:00pm SGT or something like that, that we were suddenly told, nrv have won the whole set, walkovers for game 1 and 2, so 5-1 victory. This was communicated to us in all honestly out of the blue. It was the first time we had heard of them claiming walkovers over us, in all this time we had thought they had agreed to wait for my game and reschedule Fai's game.

Calcifer was ready to put a sub in for Fai's game at a seconds notice since there were others online for ONS that weren't already in the match schedule (calcifer himself being the best example). This was our last match of the season (we have byes for the remaining weeks) and with subs still available we had absolutely no reason not to use it and willingly take a walkover instead... However because Calcifer genuinely thought the game was rescheduled he reasoned he didn't need to arrange a sub. If he had known NRV wanted the decision to walkover Fai's game I am in no doubt that he would have organised a sub to prevent this from happening. You have a screenshot that shows savior communicating a requested walkover but unfortunately in the same screenshot it shows Calcifer disconnecting before replying (his last message was "so we"... which means nothing and looks to me like he intended to write something else after it but unfortunately was DC'ed)(Calcifer already mentioned DCing a few times tonight). The best thing to do in this case, as we have learned, would have been to have taken it to an admin. Furthermore, from Calcifer's subsequent actions and communication I think its pretty safe to say he never received this last message and was thus still under the impression game 1 was okay to be rescheduled (which can be inferred from the first part of the conversation in the screenshot).

In relation to savior's message, Calcifer has bad English... from what he said it looks more like he simply wanted to clarify what time the reschedule would be for, and NOT "those times dont work and that (u) need to do it when (Fai) also can," as Bard seems to suggest. Fault Calcifer for his English sure, but please don't fault his intent.

To add to our confusion, we deduced that if savior really couldn't or didn't want to reschedule, he would have made sure to have gotten an agreement out of Calcifer on the walkover especially given the whisper between the two that originally proposed a time for a rescheduling and then the subsequent no-reply-and-DC. Instead he went and observed the other 2 matches as they were played, giving us the impression that he had actually agreed to the reschedule and wasn't in a rush to play his own game. So one can see how going from a situation where we thought everything was sorted out: 4 games today and 1 later, to suddenly after yoong's match: the games are over now, the other two are w/o's!, could cause Calcifer to think ons were being treated unfairly.

Obviously this is only our side of the story and there's always two sides to a coin so please bear that in mind. And since I wasn't there from the beginning this is all I managed to deduce from speaking to calcifer, so please bear with me if I've missed something.

But in all honesty, whilst we are in the wrong for not having our players turn up on time and nrv having all 5 ready at the get go... we would definitely appreciate a little forgiveness from nrv and hope that they can see the misunderstanding from our perspective and respect the decision from Brynsy. After all Starcraft 2 is a game where people fight it out on the battle field and not in a war of words! I don't think it will be that unfair on savior if he plays his game with Fai at a time both are comfortable with. No-ones going to be worse off and then all this drama could be avoided. That's why I think Byrnsy's decision is the right one and hope we stick by it. Rules are rules I know, but there is a Chinese saying: 法律不外乎人情, roughly translating to "the law is nothing more than being humane". So how about we all realize that we are all humans and try to accommodate each other's shortcomings. Let us be friends!

Hope we managed to clear some confusion from our side.

Thanks!

Quick Comments

	Flamga:	Was going to post, but I appreciate this :)
	wTlzq:	rep for 法律不外乎人情!!
	Stallion:	this is pretty much what i managed to get too a very well written post
	Snx.FigJig:	uninformed post.
	x5_Bard:	I'll bear with you for missing a large chunk of what happened :)
	xGKingdelete:
	ToRSpartaz:	PICKLE SHUT UP AND STOP NEGATIVE REPPING PEOPLE

[Arden]

Game 3 first. This match happened no problems, results were a 2-1 win for Arden. But calcifer wanted to raise the point that Arden was a roster change this week and was just wondering where he popped out from and whether this change was legit in the first place.

I am indeed new to the clan as well as the sea community so I honestly don't have a good idea what exactly is going on. I firstly would like to thank all the admins for preparing this amazing tournament and dare to step into the argument as a relatively newcomer. To start with, I have joined the nerve gaming clan recently so I could join this tournament. You'll see that I became part of the roster officially before the tournament in this thread: http://www.sc2sea.com/showthread.php?t=3471. Like I've said, I'm new to the community, so I do not understand the tournament rules thoroughly. If admins agree that such immediate roster change isn't allowed, I will step aside from the tournament.

Regarding the rest of the problem that happened today, I would like to voice out my opinion as a relatively third person's point of view. Game 1,2,3 went smoothly as players of both teams were available for the games. Game 4 was solved after lengthy dispute as Kez decided to take ons' offer to play a subbed game. Game 5, however, is still not solved yet (at least to my understanding) and I believe that not even a sub was ready to play against savior. As a newcomer, I can understand that there can be circumstances where a player cannot make his match. However, if a reschedule is forced without an earlier notice, I strongly believe such leniency would dilute a lot of players' effort and responsibility to make to their matches on time. I come from broodwar background and I believe a walkover instead of a postponement is the right penalty that would make players more serious about their matches no matter how small they are.

Thanks

Quick Comments

	Flamga:
	Stallion:	I accepted you on the roster so you could play dw

[ROCCAT_Savior]

Originally Posted by xetech

I didn't want to post at all since I thought Brynsy had come to a decision on the matter, but since people keep adding to the discussion, I'll input my 2 cents as well.

First and foremost I do not disagree that we were at fault for being late. However putting that aside for a minute I would like to give our side of the story since Calcifer's English is so bad, he has trouble communicating his point across alone.

So taking whats been said in this thread, if there is a dispute of any sort, we need to take it to an admin. Unfortunately, neither party did manage to do so at the time of the disagreements today so it falls to an admin to make a decision in retrospect.

I believe Brynsy's subsequent judgement was a fair one. It's not a matter of whether ONS were late or not, I think everybody knows that we did have 2 late people, but a matter of misunderstanding and "communication breakdown" as Brynsy so greatly put it. Why? Let me explain.

The games in question are mainly game 1, game 2 but also a side point on game 3.

Game 3 first. This match happened no problems, results were a 2-1 win for Arden. But calcifer wanted to raise the point that Arden was a roster change this week and was just wondering where he popped out from and whether this change was legit in the first place.

Game 2 was my game. Admittedly I was late and I accept all responsibility for that, and understand their reasons for wanting a w/o. However I was not 3 hrs late as hinted, I was 45 minutes late, and was actually watching the stream waiting for my game because I thought we were running on a game by game basis (which has been the norm with streamed games). I know you argued that Calcifer said he wanted all games to be played simultaneously but given what happened afterwards (games were played consecutively - kozo, zero then yoong, we reasoned this meant that we would be instead be playing one by one). I could have actually started playing at about 6:50 SGT, I even went in the nerve gaming channel and talked to havoc there but Kez was in the midst of ladder games (no fault of his). However as yoong's game ended I was told my game wasn't happening... Nonetheless after a bit of discussion Kez was nice enough to play me anyway, so this issue was resolved. Thus this game doesn't really warrant further discussion. Thank you Kez for your sportsmanship!

Now to game 1. ONS was waiting for Fai to show up but unfortunately he didn't turn up on time. Calcifer communicated this to NRV. From my understanding of what calcifer said, nrv agreed to wait (for 15 minutes I assume since this is the w/o time limit). However during this time calcifer was negotiating with nrv (pickle and savior) to possibly reschedule the match since he couldn't contact Fai and was worried he wouldn't show up anytime soon. The problem lies here. Somewhere along the lines calcifer was led to believe that savior agreed to a reschedule. (As a side note when I logged on calcifer said to me: ur playing after yoong; to which i replied what about the other games?; and calcifer said, (amongst other things) Fai's game was rescheduled). Note this was BEFORE the drama started where we found out that Fai's game was walkovered so theres little reason for Calcifer to lie to me at this stage which makes me believe, and I hope you all join me in believing, that he honestly thought nrv had agreed to a rescheduling of game 1.

Now from our perspective, if we thought a game was to be rescheduled, why would we need to do anything else? Everything is dandy right? It was not until yoongs game ended, which I think was about 8:00pm SGT or something like that, that we were suddenly told, nrv have won the whole set, walkovers for game 1 and 2, so 5-1 victory. This was communicated to us in all honestly out of the blue. It was the first time we had heard of them claiming walkovers over us, in all this time we had thought they had agreed to wait for my game and reschedule Fai's game.

Calcifer was ready to put a sub in for Fai's game at a seconds notice since there were others online for ONS that weren't already in the match schedule (calcifer himself being the best example). This was our last match of the season (we have byes for the remaining weeks) and with subs still available we had absolutely no reason not to use it and willingly take a walkover instead... However because Calcifer genuinely thought the game was rescheduled he reasoned he didn't need to arrange a sub. If he had known NRV wanted the decision to walkover Fai's game I am in no doubt that he would have organised a sub to prevent this from happening. You have a screenshot that shows savior communicating a requested walkover but unfortunately in the same screenshot it shows Calcifer disconnecting before replying (his last message was "so we"... which means nothing and looks to me like he intended to write something else after it but unfortunately was DC'ed)(Calcifer already mentioned DCing a few times tonight). The best thing to do in this case, as we have learned, would have been to have taken it to an admin. Furthermore, from Calcifer's subsequent actions and communication I think its pretty safe to say he never received this last message and was thus still under the impression game 1 was okay to be rescheduled (which can be inferred from the first part of the conversation in the screenshot).

In relation to savior's message, Calcifer has bad English... from what he said it looks more like he simply wanted to clarify what time the reschedule would be for, and NOT "those times dont work and that (u) need to do it when (Fai) also can," as Bard seems to suggest. Fault Calcifer for his English sure, but please don't fault his intent.

To add to our confusion, we deduced that if savior really couldn't or didn't want to reschedule, he would have made sure to have gotten an agreement out of Calcifer on the walkover especially given the whisper between the two that originally proposed a time for a rescheduling and then the subsequent no-reply-and-DC. Instead he went and observed the other 2 matches as they were played, giving us the impression that he had actually agreed to the reschedule and wasn't in a rush to play his own game. So one can see how going from a situation where we thought everything was sorted out: 4 games today and 1 later, to suddenly after yoong's match: the games are over now, the other two are w/o's!, could cause Calcifer to think ons were being treated unfairly.

Obviously this is only our side of the story and there's always two sides to a coin so please bear that in mind. And since I wasn't there from the beginning this is all I managed to deduce from speaking to calcifer, so please bear with me if I've missed something.

But in all honesty, whilst we are in the wrong for not having our players turn up on time and nrv having all 5 ready at the get go... we would definitely appreciate a little forgiveness from nrv and hope that they can see the misunderstanding from our perspective and respect the decision from Brynsy. After all Starcraft 2 is a game where people fight it out on the battle field and not in a war of words! I don't think it will be that unfair on savior if he plays his game with Fai at a time both are comfortable with. No-ones going to be worse off and then all this drama could be avoided. That's why I think Byrnsy's decision is the right one and hope we stick by it. Rules are rules I know, but there is a Chinese saying: 法律不外乎人情, roughly translating to "the law is nothing more than being humane". So how about we all realize that we are all humans and try to accommodate each other's shortcomings. Let us be friends!

Hope we managed to clear some confusion from our side.

Thanks!

The reason I claimed the w/o was because at no point did calsifer actually say the words 'Yes' 'Ok' or anything implying the go ahead for a reschedule. By the time this was happening it was 1 in the morning on a day when I had a 9 start for an important lecture. It was incredibly frustrating because this would have been my first time participating and every things gone pear shaped.

I've got a bit more to say about this, but I'll update when I get back...
Edit: I was never told about a sub 'ready and waiting'....and I don't think you had one until past the time I'd headed offline...

Quick Comments

Snx.FigJig:

Exactly this. We also followed up several times after asking about reschedules and he never replied. Said this many times, admins being stubborn.

[xetech]

Quick post before I go to work...

Calcifer himself at the very least (if you don't believe any other ons members were online) could have been the sub had he truly believed game 1 was being walkovered instead of being rescheduled... (so it's not like we had deliberate intentions to not want to waste our subs seeing as its our last game of the season).

I feel as though it really was a breakdown in communications. If you couldn't get through to calcifer, as in no response or agreement, then the correct course of action would have been to seek official support... we have seen and learnt from this example. I hope we can respect and listen to the admins decision and move on now. Thank you for everyone's understanding.

[Snx.FigJig]

Originally Posted by xetech

Quick post before I go to work...

Calcifer himself at the very least (if you don't believe any other ons members were online) could have been the sub had he truly believed game 1 was being walkovered instead of being rescheduled... (so it's not like we had deliberate intentions to not want to waste our subs seeing as its our last game of the season).

I feel as though it really was a breakdown in communications. If you couldn't get through to calcifer, as in no response or agreement, then the correct course of action would have been to seek official support... we have seen and learnt from this example. I hope we can respect and listen to the admins decision and move on now. Thank you for everyone's understanding.

We told him may times about reschedules and that we cant make that time, no reply, and after 2hrs he brings up subs. Not our problem, we did everything we could to get the match done. We should not be penalized because cal cannot understand simple english. Get someone se to manage the team, other teams shouldnt be forced to work around ons because the manager is incompentent.

Quick Comments

	deL:	unnecessary personal insults
	ToRSpartaz:	Make sure this is the last time this happens...

[syfChadMann]

Originally Posted by nRvPickleWeasel

We told him may times about reschedules and that we cant make that time, no reply, and after 2hrs he brings up subs. Not our problem, we did everything we could to get the match done. We should not be penalized because cal cannot understand simple english. Get someone se to manage the team, other teams shouldnt be forced to work around ons because the manager is incompentent.

Take the admin decision and move on. Ever watched Soccer matches (or played)? ever seen the ref change his mind after a decision?..No.

Complaining only makes it worse for you.

[x5_Bard]

So what is the final decision? As I feel I have proved

"If you can show me that no onslaught players were not connected 15 minutes after the start of the game we'll give the walkover."

[syfChadMann]

Originally Posted by nRvPickleWeasel

If this is the case nRv should not be singled out. xGking vs infi has to be rescheduled and played, as well as all other walkovers that have happened in SEACL. Do this for everyone, or don't do it at all.

They went about seeking their walk overs in the correct manner. I believe in this situation your attitude towards several admins of the league and the continued complaining on the forum is resulting in you being punished by not receiving the walk over. Act respectfully and follow protocol, you'll get walk overs when it is the fair decision. Pickle, you've brought this onto your team, now live with your actions and move on.

Originally Posted by nRvPickleWeasel

Regards to the umpire decisions being reviewed, it has happened many times before. Either way, sports analogies are irrelevant. Soccer format is nothing like this.

SEAL - Format based on the English Premier League. Nothing like Soccer at all.. -_-

[x5_Bard]

Its not just in the thread? I have a vod?

[Frogmite]

Originally Posted by nRvBard

Its not just in the thread? I have a vod?

I missed that. I'll have a look tonight as i can't watch stream from work. Re-schedule still applicable until further notice.

[dippa]

dippa > wTera [walkover]

[[TA]LoSt]

Wow I missed a lot. Have all the TA matches been played/was there any problems?

I'm not gonna get involved in this whole drama, I already had my moment with ons clan. :P

[ProAnnn]

iRLProAnnn 2 - 0 cruxDoc
GGBinu 0-0 cruxNXZ (to be played on saturday)
iRLGoldfish 0-0 cruxKiSS(to be played on saturday too)
Lizerg 2-0 cruxEldrid
iRLKyzersoze 2-0 cruxdelete

Overall results(so far) iRL 4-0 crux

[Frogmite]

Allright guys.

Thanks to the VOD link given by Bard we could have investigated the issue deeper with all the admins. We all agreed on what i will state below, so if you have comments/claims please send PM to the admins, we are always free and willing to discuss.

lGdFai VS Savior

For this game, the VOD shows clearly that Savior was connected to at the beginning of the games and that IGdFai wasn't connected at all.
I believe nRv wants to claim the walkover and they are in their rights to do so. So we'll give the walkover to Savior

onsXetech VS Kez

Kez was free in the channel few minutes after the start of the game. Xetech connected during the ace game play, so after 26 min from the start of the game. The game could have been played at that moment but for a reason i ignore the game had been played 2 hours after. nRv would have been able to claim the walkover for that game (26min>15min), however Kez agreed to play the game and lost 2-0 (props to him). As the game had been played, the players agreed to play so i'll count this result as a win for onslaught.

Final result:
The VOD we watched helped us to revise our judgement and we think it's fair to give the walkover to nRv for game1.

nRv 4-2 onslaught
There is no need to replay the games on sunday. You can still do it for e-sport sake but we won't take the results into account.


To onscalcifer:

After ONS vs TA, it's the second time onslaught is having roster issues and is creating drama for Tier 2.
We'll keep this in mind and we won't hesitate to give ban/penalties the next time it happens (most likely SEACL season 3).
You also raised the issue of the nRv subs. The subs for week 2 are counted as "wildcards" because the players replaced were already inside their initial roster.
So far nRv did 2 substitutions to this day.


To nRvPickeweasel:

Your attitude during this drama was totally not acceptable (infraction rules 1&3 numerous times) and we'll punish you by giving you a 3-days ban so you'll have time to cool down a bit. 3 days are not a lot because we think you were just over-heated. However if you persist we'll give a longer ban.
I believe you said those things because you were still angry after the game but it's not a sufficient reason to do it. Keep in mind it's easier for the admins to listen to someone calm than someone posting comments against admins.
We expect team leaders to be helpful when drama arise, we're here to take decisions so mature talk help us a lot. The way Bard posted his point of view was good and certainly helped us took the fair decision.
Very important thing, we don't punish you because you were right and admin are wrong, we punish you because we saw some comments not expected from a team leader.
I believe that you didn't want to hurt anyone, but all the things you say are also impacting everyone's point of view on nRv.
Another point, i saw that you complained about some BM from ONS, BM is not allowed by the rules so if you bring the proof (by PM) we'll investigate and take a decision with the admin towards ONS as well.


On a side note, i would like praise the attitude of Kez who accepted to play the delayed games

Any comments, let Tier 2 admins know by PM thanks

Quick Comments

	Reere:	Thank you for clearing everything up <3
	ProAnnn:	Really nice way to solve this (Y)
	nirvAnA:	Perfection
	x5_Bard:	Thanks for taking the time to clear this up :)
	xGKingdelete:
	phoney:	Kez getting more n more baller by the day
	Nemo:	Respect

[AxSGRiM]

Thanks to the admins for coming to the decision, sorry for all our unnecessary rage!

[wTlzq]

TA vs wT

TANoodle 1-2 wTMrToast
TAdippA 2-0 wTerA ( walkover)
TAavanar 2-0 wTRage* ( wTRage sub in for wTJack)
TAsivvon 0-2 wTSkrawl
ACE: TAFourby 1-2 wTinte

overall wT wins 4-2, good games

Quick Comments

[TA]LoSt:

gg's!

[SLCN.NXZ]

cruxNXZ vs iRLBinu

binu wins 2-0. ggwp

[ProAnnn]

Originally Posted by NXZ

cruxNXZ vs iRLBinu

binu wins 2-0. ggwp

Other than this
cruxKiSS 2-1 iRLGoldfish

Therefore overall score
iRL 5- 1 crux