[Snx.FigJig]

Been testing this build out and having trouble against 14g/14p into banes. I don't know an effective way to deal with it, I've tried getting up 1 spine as soon as my hatch pops or getting a bane nest myself but neither seem to be more effective than the other. I feel I'm never safe with that build and whatever I do is a giant risk, whether it be make more units or drone up. I scout their nat and even if they expand I can't drone up since they, more often than not, just mass ling while expanding and can just kill me if I drone.

Can anyone tell me how they deal with 14/14 into banes with this build? Also just another thing, what particular timings or drone counts do you get roaches and infestor?

If it affects your advice, my league is masters.

Thanks for any help

[aLtShortizz]

2 queens 1 spine and a baneling nest asap before speed + hope for the best.

Oh and 15H 14 P 14 G is better IMO.

[crAzerk]

15H 16Pool lets you get 2 queens + 1 spine immediately once your pool is done so you can do the whole ramp block jazz. Should consult Mafia, he does hatch first like every game lol

[iM MaFia]

this build is risky if you don't have near perfect micro and even the best players still don't and can easily mess it up then lose to 1 huge baneling hit, but the key ways to defend a 14/14 speedbane is having queens blocking ramp and microing ur lings well and minimizing the effect off ur opponents banelings until ur own speed/bane is up.

[aLtShortizz]

Originally Posted by crAzerk

15H 16Pool lets you get 2 queens + 1 spine immediately once your pool is done so you can do the whole ramp block jazz. Should consult Mafia, he does hatch first like every game lol

U`ll die to just speedlings if u go 15H 16 Pool and get 2 queens + 1 spine immediately.

[iM MaFia]

Originally Posted by aLtShortizz

U`ll die to just speedlings if u go 15H 16 Pool and get 2 queens + 1 spine immediately.

thats not true, 2 queens blocking ramp and spine shits on speedlings depends on maps that allow it

[aLtShortizz]

Originally Posted by xGKingMafia

thats not true, 2 queens blocking ramp and spine shits on speedlings depends on maps that allow it

Assuming he gets an OL at 15 and no more drones after that, those early lings will kill the spine before it gets up. Its just u put urself in a even harder situation den if u went 15/14. Come to think of it, i dont even think the queens will be there in time to block the first 6 lings getting onto ur ramp?

[Nemo]

Originally Posted by xGKingMafia

this build is risky if you don't have near perfect micro and even the best players still don't and can easily mess it up then lose to 1 huge baneling hit, but the key ways to defend a 14/14 speedbane is having queens blocking ramp and microing ur lings well and minimizing the effect off ur opponents banelings until ur own speed/bane is up.

Originally Posted by aLtShortizz

Assuming he gets an OL at 15 and no more drones after that, those early lings will kill the spine before it gets up. Its just u put urself in a even harder situation den if u went 15/14. Come to think of it, i dont even think the queens will be there in time to block the first 6 lings getting onto ur ramp?

I say Grudge match ! BO5, map chosen by veto, cast by the best caster of SEA.

[iM MaFia]

15 hatch makes 4-6 lings against 14/14

[aLtShortizz]

Originally Posted by Nemo

I say Grudge match ! BO5, map chosen by veto, cast by the best caster of SEA.

I could login and start searching and we`ll play a ton of games on the ladder right away haha.

But yeah @ Mafia, i was refering to Crazerk's 15 H 16 P. If u get a spine and 2 queens right away ur initial lings will be MUCH later against ur opponent's first 6. Assuming u get ur gas of cos.

[iM MaFia]

if u want, when ?

[aLtShortizz]

Originally Posted by xGKingMafia

if u want, when ?

I was searching, u playing on NA atm?

[PiG]

Don't ruin this thread with challenging each other like children. I agree with shortizz on most maps if you don't build lings straight away you will take alot of unessecary damage from the lings. Watch Nerchio vs moonglade at IEM Cologne where glade goes 15-15-15 and builds 2 queens instantly ( i think he skipped the spine) and he basically lost so much mining to the initial 4-8 lings that he couldn't stop the landslide that followed.


The simple answer to the OP is with 15-15-15 I like to get the spine at the top of my ramp, wall with two queens. Stop him morphing banes closeby by sharking with slowlings.

His banes won't finish morphing until ling speed kicks in and as long as you pulled 2 drones off gas and built pure lings after 17 drones then you will vastly outnumber your opponent and can counterattack which with good control will win a huge number of your games.

The key is to make sure you put all your money into an overwhelming number of lings (often free win vs speedling expo due to larvae advantage) and don't waste money on bane nest. Also don't try to save your hatch just go kill their main.

This all being said, I think 15-15-15 is not a good build unless its a large map where your opponent may not be able to get a scout up your ramp where the surprise of the early ling speed can be used to great effect.

Quick Comments

	lolwut:	good post :)
	MooZfY:

[TAEdgE]

PiG i challenge you to a deathmatch child.

(Also his post is good)

[Snx.FigJig]

Thanks for all the replies! Ill def try all your suggestions.

After I made this post i just trained zvz for hours with a friend and we found a roach build that seems to work well. It goes 15h 15p 18g getting a rw as soon as pool finishes and skipping speed to get 3-5 roaches. From what we tested the roaches were out in time to stop 14/14 banes. Any of you used this build before?

[mGGDaedalus]

Originally Posted by nRvPickleWeasel

Thanks for all the replies! Ill def try all your suggestions.

After I made this post i just trained zvz for hours with a friend and we found a roach build that seems to work well. It goes 15h 15p 18g getting a rw as soon as pool finishes and skipping speed to get 3-5 roaches. From what we tested the roaches were out in time to stop 14/14 banes. Any of you used this build before?

I'm only diamond but if I saw you rushing straight to roach tech off a hatch first I'd just build a butt tonne of speedlings off 2 base and kill you

[Snx.FigJig]

That can kill me if not scouted, but this build is fairly versatile. If you hatch first and then mass ling i skip roaches and go standard, getting speed first and no roaches. If you 14/14 speedling expand then 2 base ling i will have 3-5 roaches and get speed myself then mass lings too, and since my hatch is earlier ill just have a better econ and more stuff by the time you get to me, but this is all very reliant on me scouting well.

[Reere]

The RW Pickle is referring to is only planted immediately if a no expo is scouted.

[mGGDaedalus]

Originally Posted by nRvPickleWeasel

That can kill me if not scouted, but this build is fairly versatile. If you hatch first and then mass ling i skip roaches and go standard, getting speed first and no roaches. If you 14/14 speedling expand then 2 base ling i will have 3-5 roaches and get speed myself then mass lings too, and since my hatch is earlier ill just have a better econ and more stuff by the time you get to me, but this is all very reliant on me scouting well.

Yeah you have to know the ling flood is coming, otherwise with just roaches even blocking the ramp will not save you (kill your natural then break down your wall off while droning and getting roach warren at home). When I see people trying to be greedy like that I use queen at my natural to pick off overlords while pooling lings in a hidden corner of my base

[Snx.FigJig]

Yup, is something i do have to scout for and if caught off guard i can just lose. Is why i need to scout well with it, checking your nat and its drone count and such. I like this build though, i feel safe with it if i do it properly.

[crAzerk]

Ive flirted with Roach openers in the past too, but the general feeling is that its harder to play

- you have to be defensive
- opponent's speedling-expand does not necessarily mean you're ahead in drones just cos u hatch first - rem ure pumping roaches to block ramp n maybe even a spine, and you really cant' tell when it's safe to drone up until speed is done (which is considerably later cos of your roach investment
- virtually no map control

Whereas a speedling(baneling) opening (with expo) is more flexible and you can drone up comfortably (with spines if you're concerned of roach allin)

I think it's map dependant as mafia said, some maps allow a generally defendable 15hatch, some are jus shit n need good micro+drone split so speedling expand may be better

I really don't think there's a 'right' answer of which is better, you just have to consider which side you feel more comfortable with. As you said you feel safe with this so I guess it's good for you, for me i feel like I'm playing blind/too defensive with these roach-first builds)

[Snx.FigJig]

I am ahead in drones by about 3 against a speedling expand or banes by the time they either expand or hit me with banes, but as you said it is very defensive and little map control but for me i am comfortable with that since that is the point of my build. I rely on sneaky slowlings amd good ol placement for scoutong. Will upload reps later to show my build to make it more clear.

[PiG]

Originally Posted by nRvPickleWeasel

Thanks for all the replies! Ill def try all your suggestions.

After I made this post i just trained zvz for hours with a friend and we found a roach build that seems to work well. It goes 15h 15p 18g getting a rw as soon as pool finishes and skipping speed to get 3-5 roaches. From what we tested the roaches were out in time to stop 14/14 banes. Any of you used this build before?

Skipping ling speed means you won't be able to scout. This is not good. It may work well at several levels of play. However I personally favour getting pool and gas at the same time on 15 supply and then reacting to what I scout.

Build:
15/14 pool/gas
15 ovie
2 queens asap
4 scouting lings
1 off gas @100 +metabolic boost

if hatch-first go expo into bane defense and drone + add spine
if 1-base or speedling expo build warren immediately and expand once 5 roaches are out.


Enjoy. As always any questions hop on my streamchat linked below

[Snx.FigJig]

2 queens? Do you get them before you expo and do you skip the 2nd queen if you get the roach warren? Also, do you stop drones at 15 and how many defensive banes and lings do you get to be safe? Thanks again pig, helpful as always !

[crAzerk]

PiG is da boss.

[mGGDaedalus]

Yeah, getting 2 queens straight away is so vital in surviving a lot of different kinds of early pressure/all ins, as well as allowing you to quickly block your ramp if you're getting bling busted. Lings + queen with your lings kiting is also great way to defend against slightly higher number of enemy lings.

Quick Comments

PiG:

well said

[Snx.FigJig]

So with the build, you get the 2 queens before RW, block the ramp with 2 queens until roaches are out then expand if they go ling bling or mass speedlings?

[PiG]

Edit Might aswell add reps. Not bragging its just only 2 with right example i could find:

Replays: http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=584
http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=583

Originally Posted by nRvPickleWeasel

2 queens? Do you get them before you expo and do you skip the 2nd queen if you get the roach warren? Also, do you stop drones at 15 and how many defensive banes and lings do you get to be safe? Thanks again pig, helpful as always !

You drone to ~18 after the 4 lings. If you verify there's no hatch first (depends on if you scout them with ovie) then you get warren before 2nd queen. If you have to wait for lings it's a bit later and so comes after the second queen. Either way they go down around the same time, it's a matter of seconds.

How many defensive lings and banes? This changes with every second that goes by and depending on what you scout. You go ling-bane only vs hatch first and so will have faster ling-speed and can verify what your opponent has. As you have 2 queens and a spine by the time any potential banes hit you just need 4 banes to be safe, no zerglings, just a few for scouting.

"So with the build, you get the 2 queens before RW, block the ramp with 2 queens until roaches are out then expand if they go ling bling or mass speedlings?"

This is true. As long as they don't go HATCH FIRST. if they go hatch first you expand immediately and go defensive banelings. But if you are fighting a 1-base opponent or a speedling expo then you go roaches. The 2nd queen begins just after the roach warren starts.

Note that roach expand vs speedling expand your expo can be as much as 100 seconds later (ingame time) then their hatchery and its ok. This is because you have roaches vs ling or ling/bane and you were ahead in drones earlier on and they usually have just caught up.

Pro tip: If heavy ling pressure while droning wedge your queens between the minerals of your mineral line so their is only small surface area stopping them from being sniped while still covering the drones and so microing drones is your only concern.

Quick Comments

Reere:

thank you, you have cracked the zerg code i've been stuck on~

[Snx.FigJig]

Just one last question and ill stop bugging you pig . When you say 15/14 pool/gas, what makes you decide to get a 15p (also, do you still get gas at 14 or 15?) instead of a 14p in games? Is there any real difference between the two? And do you put the 1 drone back on gas after you expo/get your RW?


Thanks, sorry was more than 1 question I need to buy some coaching from you with all this help youve given me!

[crAzerk]

To add on to the question about 15/14, does this opening hold an early pool opener comfortably like 14/14?

[PiG]

Originally Posted by nRvPickleWeasel

Just one last question and ill stop bugging you pig . When you say 15/14 pool/gas, what makes you decide to get a 15p (also, do you still get gas at 14 or 15?) instead of a 14p in games? Is there any real difference between the two? And do you put the 1 drone back on gas after you expo/get your RW?


Thanks, sorry was more than 1 question I need to buy some coaching from you with all this help youve given me!

15/14 just means both at same time. Sorry that's just how I write it as you get them same time first one drops supply to 15 then other to 14. So it would normally be written 15 pool 14 gas. Perhaps "15 - pool+gas same time" would be clearer. You can do them both on 14 supply aswell it's up to you.

When you put the guy back on gas depends on what you wanna do but generally once you're in a safer zone of the game where you're droning you chuck it back on. Doing it when your hatch finishes or is down is fine if you find you keep forgetting.

Crazerk: 15 pool 14 gas your pool goes down earlier then 14/14. Because the moment you have 200 minerals you build a pool. You have built 15 drones to this point. With 14/14 you have also built 15 drones but you've used one on a gas geyser so you are 25 minerals behind.

[Snx.FigJig]

Will practice this build asap, but with the roach opening build ive been practicing that gets speed after roaches if they do 1 base play, ive been wondering does the later ling speed against a bane opening or speedling expand really affect your scouting? Because wouldnt you have an OL at their nat to scout if they expand or not, and by the time their hatch would be up speed will be done so you can scout whatever 2 base play theyre doing?

[Eldrid]

Completely avoiding the question the OP asks - if your doing hatch first as your standard opener in ZvZ, you will (read, you -will-) lose 20-30% of your games automatically from people who 6/7/9 pool all in you. I always liked going 15/15/15 but it just never worked no matter how good my micro was against the above all in's, if my opponent didnt badly stuffup, eg: lose all their lings for nothing, you lose.

I know this is another topic all together, but i think its probably an important one, as it sounded like this was your main opener.

i've recently been doing 15 pool 16 hatch 15 gas (13 scout and hatch cancel vs early all in's) and this holds by the skin of your teeth. Holds up well vs hatch first as well, i then transition to 2 gas banes for any ling flood and drone like crazy behind 1 and maybe 2 spines if needed.

i think this is alot safer, and certainly no less economical than 15 or 16 hatch. Especially when you factor in the annoying auto-losses hatch first brings!

[SLCN.NXZ]

PiG I'm curious if you cannot scout the hatch first vs pool first, say your cross spots tal'darim which of your builds would you choose to do. Would you just like wait until your lings arrive and then react or would u just go expand and hope your micro and the rush distance can hold any early banes? Also I'm curious how you transition but I'll go watch the rep again for that.

Thanks a lot mate. ^_^

(top 100 GM, just so you know I have some fundamentals down )

[PiG]

I wait for the lings. Hence this builds weakness on big maps like TDA and antiga in crossspots. Your roaches/expo will be delayed. Sometimes i just roll a dice and choose one. If i choose roach i cancel it if i spot hatch first and build expo+bane nest instead

[SLCN.NXZ]

Thanks so much man. Definitely keep trying the build

[JordsKeen]

Seems a tad risky to me. But that's just a toss's opinion who sometimes plays random lol ^_^

Sure I think it'll work sometimes

[TARane]

you just have to stay at your ramp with both queens + (spine if you prefer)
some zergs make lings and send all of them out thinking they can match the other zerg in ling production but since your speed is later than theirs (assuming they 14g 14p into speeding expo or banelings) and so you can easily get overrun - hence, inevitably there is a brief time where you are in the dark ( but good overlords should help read what they are doing)
i may not be exactly correct because i do prefer 14g14p but this is just my 2c