[EveJeonSa]

Hi guys, just a protoss who have been experimenting "other styles" of pvt, after seeing Naniwa play rain yesterday at dreamhack I tried to do his colossus style.

I tried it on ladder and i warded off a ghost push.


2 minutes later, when i had a viable army size, I go to his base and killed off almost all of his units.


Then, I got greeted by 4 vikings (double reactor port transition) and more Marauders streaming in.


I managed to snipe off those 4 vikings by warping in 4 stalkers but all my colossi had died by then and i was greeted with an army of ghosts, MM and vikings just a few instances later.

ggnore

Is warp gate style the only way to play? (Seeing as how terran can gets vikings up so fast)

Replay : http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=471

-A struggling protoss

[PiG]

Heya Derpy post the replay man sounds like there was something happening with the economies which was really weird for him to get out double reactor vikings and u have no antiair!

Where was your pylon? surely if you warped in a round of units there you could have zoned the vikings out and pushed onto his production?

[iM yang]

There seems something terribly wrong where I see 1 colossi and 5 sentrys in one screenshot and 3 colossi with no other units in another. Colossi are great but without any units supporting them they are almost useless.

Quick Comments

dazaris:

[Starcraftmazter]

What ever happened to colossi phoenix? Nobody seems to do it anymore.

[NvPinder]

Originally Posted by Starcraftmazter

What ever happened to colossi phoenix? Nobody seems to do it anymore.

Ever since ghosts became cheap enough in gas that ghost marine viking with marauders mixed was a legitimate composition pheonixes became useless because they got EMP'd so they couldnt lift and then just got raped super quick by the stim marines in the fight anyway.

Also - yes collosi are still viable... dont really know what else to say.

[EveJeonSa]

Uploaded rep

[EveVendetta]

i agree with yang if u had just one round of warp in with that 3 collosi you could have probably won that game already

[Next_rim]

As I see PvT, 50% is econ, 50% is tech switching.

Ghosts>>>HT. Vikings>>>Colossi. If you deploy colossi vs ghosts, you win. If you do HT when he has vikings, you win. My general plan is to make DT and HT, do a push, and make a switch behind it. Trade armies and watch him arrive for counter-push with 10 ghosts to die to colossi.

If you dedicate to one tech, it's very easy for terran to counter it, especially if you are not ahead in econ. So you either have to execute a very good 2-base timing, or do tech switch.

Quick Comments

	asdfSchnitzel:	Great way to explain the concept
	Synizta:

[AxS.Sorathez]

Originally Posted by Next_rim

As I see PvT, 50% is econ, 50% is tech switching.

Ghosts>>>HT. Vikings>>>Colossi. If you deploy colossi vs ghosts, you win. If you do HT when he has vikings, you win. My general plan is to make DT and HT, do a push, and make a switch behind it. Trade armies and watch him arrive for counter-push with 10 ghosts to die to colossi.

If you dedicate to one tech, it's very easy for terran to counter it, especially if you are not ahead in econ. So you either have to execute a very good 2-base timing, or do tech switch.

Yea I can see your point there, Usually I do my first push with chargelot-colossus, and tech to templar behind it, because I know I'm going to force vikings (if all goes well, and I don't lose everything), Those templar then force a tech switch to ghosts, and I swap straight back in to colossi and it becomes quite the tech dance (and of course, a few archons never go amiss when you've used up your templar energy).

[Synizta]

Indeed, i agree with Next_rim if you can switching between HT and Colo after the Terran starts to mass up the counter for the other, i feel it puts the protoss at advantage, i had MUCH less trouble vs bio terran when i was switching between then two, then being stubbon and sticking to just colo.

[EveJeonSa]

Note that i was trying a style that went for a straight tech path to colossus, was aiming for a timing attack. Maybe I shouldn't commit too much to colossi.
@Vend and yang, noted.

[TAXanT]

Seems to be how PvT plays out for me. I've been doing a 2 collosi w/range push and try my best to hide the collosi so he doesn't see it coming. If we engage anywhere besides his base by the time my army gets there (that's if I win the battle) he pumps vikings out to snipe my collosi whilst marauders kite the rest of my units.

That being said sometimes I get away with it, sometimes I don't.

[xGKingdelete]

collosus is viable in any matchup, but they are most effective when part of a big deathball. they are also most effective when you keep them alive. in the second screenshot (with 3 collosi vs a bunker + a few units), you should not have been there in the first place. while you may have killed some bio and scvs, it's not worth it to lose 1-2 collosus in the process. (unless you are sure that the collosus can handle the defense + any reinforcements).

also, get collosus range. in those pictures your collosi are way too close. even without vikings, they can just snipe your collosus, leaving a vulnerable gateway army.


collosi on their own are useless, they have to be mixed in with a decent sized ball of gateway units. in the screenshots, you don't have a gateway ball at all. also, remember to remake sentries. in the counter attack, if you had a couple of forcefields you could have picked off half of the army safely (if the vikings try to engage the collosus they will be talking hits from stalkers). but this is all assuming you have an army, which as the replay shows, you don't. notice how the supply shows that your terran opponent was pretty much always ahead of you in supply.

with that in mind, the reason you lost was because you simply had a smaller army, not because your army had collosus in it. you should work on trying to keep up or beat the terran in macro (maybe by expanding after holding off the ghost push, instead of attacking)

[Malik]

Watching the replay will post back when done que th e elevator music

editim blunt and direct but truthful so dont take wat i say as an attack)

1st u didnt ward off his ghost push he terra failed (didnt have enough emps didnt have stim or combat shields) and then decided to walk up a ramp which then forcfield and lol killed his stuff.

2. ur army was not a viable size (have some units with ur collosus) basically u had collosus and some sentries with a sprinkling of zelots in the first screenshot u provided if the terran had microed better then u would lost that battle and lost at that moment. Also collosus are ur dps unit they are not ur damage absorbing unit as soon as u lost ur zelots and sentries u should have disengaged.

3. 2 out of three of ur collosus were lost to marines in a bunker vikings were a formality.

the main reason u lost was that u didnt have enough stuff and then engaged when u didnt have enough my notes that i made while watching the game.

1 rax reaper expand (cc low ground) vs 1 gate expand
nexus start 5:20
cc finish 5:40 (cc on low ground)
7:00 nexus finish (1.2mins late)
7 minute mark built up chrono collosus in production 41 scvs +2 mules vs 37 probes, 6 zealots, 1 stalker and 5 sentries (too many sentries have been built to go collosus unless a specific anti timing is in mind alternatively this could be due to a build up of gas on ur part which makes sense due to the low zelot count)

9:20 wasted emp (sheilds + stim are not done 10 seconds)
10:03 ghost push in bad emp good force fields terran loses part of army 2 zealots lost to poor control. Protoss over commits and loses zealots sentries and energy on sentries. poor control leads to a less than optimul outcome for the terran player.
47 scvs + 1 mule vs 40 probes

11 3rd cc floatd to south expo 49scvs vs 44 probes +1 mule
12:10 push in terrran natural (no third nexus) 50scvs + 3 mules vs 49 probes 3ocs 2 nexus. zelots for little damage lost due to poor control and forcefield placement sentries lost due to lack of tanking units.
13 minute mark vikings are out 10-15 seconds before this occurs however 2 collosus are lost to a bunker with marines while the last is lost to said vikings though in the process they are destroyed.
14 minute nexus started
15 minute decent unit composition however poor concave and target firing of all stalkers (even those not in range) at vikings results in loss of armyin an inefficent exchange (pretty much shouldnt have attacked)

terran takes map control and gets adds ghosts but dosent increase the size of his army to any significant degree and get goes and kills ur collosus with his vikings while slaughtering ur zealots with his infantry. gg

TAKE AWAY MESSAGE:

in this game u lost mainly because u were in an inferior econoomic position which meant that u didnt have enough money to build the units that u wanted. while the terran was able to build units and account invest in more than one tech route (ghosts and vikings)

Also the push that u made into the terran natural would have worked (though it was a terrible decision to make and i pray to god or higher powers that created the universe that u never do this again ) if u had range for ur collosus mainly becasue u would have been able to kill the bunker with the marines in it from far away (leaving u with 3 collosus) which would have then enabled u to push into the natural and kill workers and thus even up the economic situation, retreat and then push later with a even stronger army. 4 vikings can handle 1 collosus so that damage is minimilised but with 3 they cant kill ur collosus as fast as u can deal damage with them.

obs are good build more u must

the way u opened seem strange keeping units in base patrolling etc i would like to know what u were thinking (i.e. wat were u afraid of).

2 base collosus is rather crappy build (imo) as it relys on ur opponenet and u being in fairly equal econmic situations and being left along to build ur collosus so that u push out and lol kill them. U can win games doing it but at the end of the day u can win games by marine scv alling but that dosent mean its a good build. gateway orientated styles are stronger and that teir 3 should be explored only on the third nexus. (some people dont agree with this) as it is more flexible and is safer (once u get used to playing it as if u dont have ur macro down pat then u will get overun by someone who just has more stuff)

on shakerus as toss (vs t ofc)u should expand to the third near ur main just adjacent to the xelnaga tower rather than the natural of the base either above or below you as a protoss army is stong in large numbers (or concentrated) a terran is strong in small numbers (when spread out) so why build ur bases far apart when u can build them close togther. Also if u build collosus u can walk them to any of ur three bases under attack easily and quickly as well as bring supporting stalkers (when blink is done at the appriate time) rather than haveing to run ur army around the map and lose stuff and spend monies on units and cannons in useless locations just to stop a 6 marine drop e.g. 3 bases X 4 zelots and 1 ht (feedback) = army weaker by 12 zelots and 3 hts.

finally u cant transition on two base unless ur opponent is in an economically inferior position as it relies on ur opponent not attacking u as u cant make units, tech, take additional bases, not get supply blocked and get upgrades (essential as well) at the same time. Any strategy that relies on ur opponent not doing some (or doing something) of their own conviction (i.e. they dont do it because they are forced to or scared into) is stupid and relays on ur opponent being an idiot which to be fair will work for some time against players who dont know better but u will hit a skill ceiling faster than the speed of light ( i had a more amusing line but i it was too close to asking for a ban so heres the more lame one)

anyway bro peace.

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

[TragicHero]

I can't watch the replay as I'm in uni right now, but to answer your question, yes collosi are viable and I love them!

There are usually 2 choices that I go for when playing PvT. This is after my standard opening: 1 gate robo into 2/3 gate ways (depending on whether there is a lot of pressure or not coming from the T).

With my early first obs, I will then decide whether I should expand, tech to collosus, or choose another tech path.

A few situations where I go for fast collosus:
1. Whenever I hold off early heavy pressure from T (2/3 rax expo). - usually means late starport. which means late medivacs, which means late vikings. If he decides to cut on one or the other, it sucks for him.
2. 1-1-1. Middle map engagements are key, I usually am able to get 2 collosi before they reach my base. Collosi are such awesome damage dealers that marines just literally melt, and stalkers can handle banshees and zealots can eat up tank fire.
3. and sometimes when the T goes 1 rax FE - I go for 1 base collosus push (HwangSin style)

I heavily rely on observers against terran, as I prefer to get them to react to what I'm doing (instead of the other way around). Most of the time whenever a T spots even ONE collosi, they tend to get >4 vikings. This is when I tech switch into hts with storm. And if they're way below their standard medivac count, I just pump more collosi out because well they're awesome.

This may all sound like theorycrafting but it's just my 2cents as a lowly diamond player (gameplay might be different in higher leagues I dunno).

TLDR; I love collosus lol USE THEM!

[Stallion]

ok im writing this after gym cos im tried without reading anything but colos are viable off 2 base 1 robo pumping colos constantly is awesome as it forces more gas into air aka vikings this means you can change into full gateway for the kill move and also means that his army comp is going to be more marine heavy. this my friend leads to some great storms this also means tho as you are prepared to lose these colos that you can be more aggressive in your positioning and every medivac you pick off is less gas to the army i mean i know marines dps is good but they are like hydras in the fact they melt to storm of colos swipes. another thing to do on the bigger maps is later upgrading to say 3 robos (off say 4 base) and chrono pumping 6 colos out all of a sudden and all of a sudden the colos shall do a lot of damage and are excellent if you can micro them at the front to pick off ghosts or even marines (every bit counts) sorry this was a slopy write up jumped on after gym and was tired and couldnt be bothered proof reading hope this helps

[SuperHero]

Colossus are extremely viable in PvT, dont let one bad game change your mind. i always get destroyed by colossus and timing attacks with them.

early game i dont rely on vikings to kill collosus, instead i grab a few marauders (5-6) and stim and run in and try to snipe it during any engagement. although they do have a fair amount of health with good focus firing i can get them down rather efficiently.

but yeah, colossus are awesome especially when combined with forcefield or a choke. their splash damage is easily one of the best in the game.

[johnnyli]

With colossus you must know when to build them as in not to build them too early nor too late.

If the Terran starts building vikings then you switch into High Templars. If you notice that you have taken out all their vikings and they have stopped producing them then you're safe to start building Colossus again.

Agaisnt:

Terran - Start your Colossus after saturating your natural and you have a sizable force to hold off any push they might be coming.

Zerg - With this matchup colossus are best if they have hydra/lings in their army pool.

Protoss - After patch 1.4 I've noticed that most games comes down to how has the most colossus. It's very hard to say when you should produce the first col because timing is everything in this. If you are going for a really early colossus make sure you have enough sentry guarding the choke to give you enough time to have the unit out.

[Trusty]

Collosus are pretty terrible against Terran with good micro - but there is nothing better to build anyway.

[iM yang]

Dunno what you're talking about, Colossi are total ballers.

[nirvAnA]

I played indy last night, had a 20 food advantage, like 150 vs 130 and lost to just pure stalker/collosi

He always made it a point to protect his collosi and snipe all the vikings blinking infront of his collosi with the stalkers, and just let the zealots/collosi attack the infantry. it was really tough to beat and he didnt even add templars, kinda made me rethink how powerful collosi are.

[LOSDoG]

yes,
colosus are still viable to use in PvT the only thing you need is alot of good micro skills so u can move back your colo against marine marauder ball and ur sentry shall use the force feilds to trap the mm runing into you then your colo (most likely with thermal lance) will kill the roasty toasty mm.

if there are vikings, simple scout it and most likely if the terran has scaned the money spot of colosus then again good micro management and force field the mm while the vikings go solo into your deth pit of staker's.

[iM yang]

I've been having a tonne of success having at MAX 10 stalkers in my army during midgame, using them purely to snipe vikings while my colossi have great retention as long as I have a decent sentry/energy count.

[inFeZa]

Colossi are great in this matchup - Protect them (they are EXPENSIVE) but there will be a point when terran makes so much vikings (too many to kill before your colossi do damage.

Keep an eye on their viking count. and start making chargelots templar (3base+) your stalkers wont be able to kill the vikings in time.

Then they will have no medivacs and your chargelots will cut through vikings/marauders after your colossi have done the most damage they can. then storm away!
GL

[NoThanXSPR]

it is viable as long as you do a proper transition imo and keep viking count low

[syfMiley]

I don't see why not.

[Melite]

It's still viable and I think a must in a PvT matchup. Blink stalkers to cut vikings are ncessary tho or else the game's usually very easy for a T to micro.

[TABottles]

Collosus man, they're designed to kill marines and anything clumped up. (i.e marine maruader without micro.) Keep them alive and you'll love them, and they'll love you too ♥.

[lolwut]

Hmm yeah in 2nd pic you had no gateway units with your ball. Personally I love using collusus lategame in an upgraded chargelot/HT/archon/sentry/stalker ball.