[OxygeN]

Cheesing is defined to me as a cut in economy to gain an offensive advantage. This takes form throughout the game, in the early game as 6pool, proxy gateways & terran barracks, and mid-game with potential utilization of workers to build offensive structures, or just to deal additional damage/tanking.

Before I begin, let me state by saying I am writing this from a Terran perspective, as Terrans have a very useful spell called "MULE" which allows the maximum utilization of any creative strategies, and innovative aggressions.

So what constitutes a cut in economy? When you can't produce off all your production structures, the loss of potential for expansion and additional production structures. However, there is potentially an optimum level of production off of 1 base, if you are looking for an early push. Potentially in any match-up, because of the structure of the game, it does not really matter if you have 1 more barracks, or 1 more factory. The idea is if you get a better unit mix than the opponent, all you have to do is to make him engage you before he gets a better unit mix than you, and you would win.

So what do I then mean by optimum level of production? And where do the cheesing vs All-In strategies come in? In a very simple analogy, you decide to go Marine Maruaders Medivac Ghosts vs an 3 gate robo strategy. Simply put, MMMG with at least 2 emps with kiting would decimate any similar food army once the Terran reaches his critical mass. Here comes in another concept of critical mass, when and how much is enough? Its really simple, when you hit about 20ish units of infantry, it is a very good time to consolidate a mid-game position. Also, because at 24ish units of infantry,he would probably have like 14-16 units of zealots/stalkers/sentries/immortals.

In a straight up fight, with some insane micro from the Protoss, he may still be able to beat you! You mis-timed your EMPs, or he split his sentries, and well, good luck to your MMMG ball when 5 zealots are in your face with guardian shield, immortals slaughtering maruaders at insane speed. However imagine now, if you brought 10 SCVs along*, if you have the micro to carry it out, all you have to do is to alternate moving infront of your army at first, "creep-blocking"** the zealots to slow down their charge, and later on attack when they are beside your ranged units. What you are doing here, is effectively slowing down the duration the zealots are beside you by at least 2 seconds, which is HUGE when it comes to the amount of DPS a marine/maruader can do in 2seconds with stim. And later on with the attack click it soaks up 450 damage from stalkers/sentries. Which is equivalent to 4 more maruaders being able to attack... about 9 marines... u do the math. the additional DPS is essentially FREE! Why? Because MULES essentially cover up the losses from your SCVs, and if you over-saturated your mineral line by like 3 or 4 before moving out, you essentially have the same amount of workers as a protoss fully saturated.

Hence, you are losing ZERO economical advantage, as a matter of fact, you could even expand, continue SCV production, and even unit production off all your buildings! Of course you are losing the opportunity cost of getting another expansion, but as I stated earlier its the idea of using your early unit mix to beat his unit mix than to wait later on and keep on countering each other repeatedly.

Essentially even if you do fail the push, and you lose all your SCVs and most of your units, you are still in a good position for a comeback and expansion if you have been producing SCVs all along as you pushed.

What appears as cheese to other players may actually work for you, as you can develop strategies to make people build whatever you want them to build(natural reaction), and not build whatever is not viable while you do a 360 Degrees tech switch. That is actually in my opinion a display of sheer strategic genius, but I haven't been able to utilize that to much success! So do not be daunted by the calling of cheese as long as you know whats the follow-up plan.

Still, 6 pool games are still incredibly funny, if you take things on the lighter side! HAHA!

Hope this was worth a good and informative read for all Terran players! :X

*1 Starport - Medivac 2 Raxes with Tech labs - Maruder/ghost 1 Rax with Reactor - 2 marines, SCV.
** Term adapted from Warcraft II, essentially blocking the unit pathing

[Admin]

A great look into the mind of oxygen! Love his thought process and how he explains it.

Fantastic article!

[nirvAnA]

Originally Posted by Admin

A great look into the mind of oxygen! Love his thought process and how he explains it.

Fantastic article!

+1

This was a great read!

[Craiglist]

Wassup Oxy!

[pangshai]

very eloquently put, oxygen.

[sheepy]

A very well written and thought out article. My sentiments exactly.

Seems to me that many in community currently have the perception that playing out of the ordinary is "cheesing" . For some reason, people view SC2 as a macro and reflex game, rather than a "strategy game". What i mean by this is that people expect others to follow the mainstream and play by what is widely considered to be "fair" or "honorable". To these people, this means playing straight up with brute force and macro skills , which are without a doubt fun to spectate. It has gotten to a point where people view strategies that have a gamble element to them as cheese, because a good player supposedly has the mindset that "if the game drags out, my superior skill and macro will prevail because i AM the better player"

To me, this is rubbish. What we end up with is a community that expects everyone to play with invisible constraints, and when someone steps beyond those boundaries , its cheese. Winning with strategy and timing are viable ways of playing, and the cries that such players won't get far have no basis but frustration. Just take a look at the GSL, with nex genius getting gged by 2 proxy barracks rushes, or even the timing mmm push by several terrans. Plenty of terran players or even protoss players base their game around good timings that are highly reliant on strong scouting. SC2 is not just about who clicks faster and who has better hand eye coordination. Its about strong strategic decisions and the ability to evaluate on the fly what the better decision should be. Oxygen has shown us during the invitationals how effective this approach can be, and as someone who trained with him before the event, i can say that his play style is more varied and unpredictable than any Terran i know.

The game is still new. Some would claim that this approach would never get far, but i strongly believe they will be proven wrong. A good craftsman uses his tools to the maximum effectiveness. Whats important is getting the job done . When your opponent knows that you are capable and likely to take risks in a game, but you are also able to play a strong macro game, that odds are strongly stacked in your favor.

[OxygeN]

Hi Cow and Kel! haha!
thanks ps~ :O

Originally Posted by tendersteak

The game is still new. Some would claim that this approach would never get far, but i strongly believe they will be proven wrong. A good craftsman uses his tools to the maximum effectiveness. Whats important is getting the job done . When your opponent knows that you are capable and likely to take risks in a game, but you are also able to play a strong macro game, that odds are strongly stacked in your favor.

Very true indeed!

[progrezzion]

good post..cheese or not cheese its strategy...even the koreans pros are doing...davi on gsl just cheesed both games against the top ladder protoss n won both under 10 minutes....if u dun scout well n defend its your fault not the cheesers....dun hate on the cheesers man work on your defence instead!

[Unstable]

While I agree with 99% of your post. I think there are a few things that the majority of the player base has misunderstood.

Too many people are using "cheese" inappropriately and just saying it whenever they haven't seen it before.

EG "Cheese is a pejorative expression which refers to a strategy that is highly unconventional and designed to take one's opponent by surprise. In general, cheese is hard to beat if not scouted but easy to defeat if it is scouted."

I was impressed by your unique play in the Blizz invitational, and i say so in the Vods that are now up However a lot of the people calling you a cheeser is because of your first 2 games with glade. as a perfect example to the definition above. Game 1 you did an unusual and effective strategy if not scouted (which glade didn't) and you won the game because even though you didn't finish him with the initial contain because glade was put so far behind. whereas game 2 glade saw this coming stopped it and was instantly ahead. But in your games vs RA, ICE etc this was not the case.

Unfortunately first impressions count However I do agree with your assessment of the bringing workers with you however it is something that needs to be done PERFECTLY or you do end up behind Sometimes when you did it you were even, but sometimes u took too many SCV's and it crippled you.

I also think because you were relatively unknown to a lot of the players for the Bliz invitational and your strategy worked well because they had never seen it before, as it will be for some time during SC2 since it is very new. But i believe that kind of play wont be as effective the longer you do it as players will be ready for it.

That being said keep up on the unique strategies they are very entertaining to see!

And ignore 99% of the haters because they don't even understand what cheese is to begin with let alone recognize it haha!

[Edrahil]

Just remember, the difference between a top player and a "cheeser" is that a top player is able to cheese should he wish, but he is not limited to ONLY cheese. I think you merely need to look at the recent starleague finals to see a plethora of "cheese" from the top 2 players of sc/bw in the world, no less. 5rax, 4pool anyone? JD only managed to take a game from Flash by 4 pooling, does that mean he is a "cheeser", i think not.

[Shinta]

Good read! There are some key issues that some people really need to be educated on about what's all in and what's standard cheese, and what cheese is in general.. Nice explanation!

[OxygeN]

Unstable: many thanks for casting the games, I did watch it, and thanks for your feedback too!
edra: yeah I heard of that tournament too, and I hope I fall into the latter category!
Shinta: thanks for your kind feedback!

[TheRandomOne]

Since we're on the topic, anyone want to share how to counter "cheese" strategies such as bunker or photon cannon rush?

[OxygeN]

Originally Posted by TheRandomOne

Since we're on the topic, anyone want to share how to counter "cheese" strategies such as bunker or photon cannon rush?

as terran?

[Plexa]

There are two sides to this, while one base timing pushes (it better describes the strategies you used) are an effective means of winning games, they're not very good practice tools for your average person. They get results, but eventually you'll run into players who can fend off the timing push and then since they are more experienced in mid-late game play they will be able to defeat you. So while it gets results in the short term, in the long term it can really hurt your gameplay.

Obviously in tournaments these strategies are great at getting wins - especially when people are still learning the game. But they're really bad at making you improve (well improve anything other than the execution of your timing push) since most of the time you are not playing a midgame or a lategame, hence these one base timing pushes are bad for practice (whether that's laddering or massing custom games). The same can be said about 4warpgate players - it gets wins now, but will they be able to compete 6 months down the line when people know exactly how to counter that and the strategy becomes obsolete?

People get frustrated with one base play in tournaments because they've practice their standard play and believe that their overall gameplay is superior to yours. Meh, it doesn't matter at the end of the day - winning is all that matters. Other players from the outside make the same judgement - "oh he has no real skill because he just timing pushes every game". There is a very real difference between timing pushing because you choose to, and timing pushing because it's the only thing you can do. It's the difference between Nal_ra and ever)P(TT, Boxer and UpMagic, Jaedong and Kwanro etc.

[Lovestoned412]

couldnt agree more to this thread. Sick of hearing OP and cheese. Whatever it takes to win a game. i just just to a terran who fly off his base after i destroyed his army and drop on my main on my nexus. i have not enough money to build another nexus, he just island and banshee me -_-

[eraft]

Originally Posted by TheRandomOne

Since we're on the topic, anyone want to share how to counter "cheese" strategies such as bunker or photon cannon rush?

I only can think of one thing: Scout, Scout and Scout.

If Bunker, you can try to target the scv, destroy it before the bunker is done,
PC rush or Proxy gateway, i will aways try to target the pylons.

Remember to continue to build your units will you are doing all that, you should be fine.

Well, back to topic. As for me I am a firm believer of whatever it takes to win (Other then cheating via map hack etc.). Even losing to cheese, i just live and learn, try to defend it or use it next time

[nirvAnA]

Yes this cannot be stressed enough.

Good scouting is the counter to any form of "cheese". If it isn't then what you lost to cannot be categorised as cheese as cheese is doing something allinish or gimicky which wont normally win if scouted properly but might win if your opponent was unprepared.

[TAEdgE]

Enjoyed this read immensely, well put together. However this bit just annoys me so much that terran can do this

'Because MULES essentially cover up the losses from your SCVs, and if you over-saturated your mineral line by like 3 or 4 before moving out, you essentially have the same amount of workers as a protoss fully saturated.

Hence, you are losing ZERO economical advantage, as a matter of fact, you could even expand, continue SCV production, and even unit production off all your buildings! Of course you are losing the opportunity cost of getting another expansion, but as I stated earlier its the idea of using your early unit mix to beat his unit mix than to wait later on and keep on countering each other repeatedly.'

I don't see that as 'strategic genius', just abusing what's available.

[OxygeN]

haha, yeah edge. i agree its abusing what is available, but its good isn't it? Everybody abuses their units to win! Abuse zerglings insane speed, abuse muta's mobility, ht's insane storms, ghosts emp... the list goes on! on a more relevant basis, abuse chron boost for an insane timing 4 gate warp prism drop, vr proxy... abuse queen's spawn larvae for 7 mutas when spire completes etc etc.

[ToRXypha]

Its not abusing IMO thats the intention of the ability, to 'abuse' it is to use it for its intended purpose, which constitutes it as being strategy.

think this game has 2 parts strategy and tactics.
Strategy is the bigger picture, ( i'll take this upgrade and build these units in this game againts that player because...,)
Tactics is the way you employ your strategy and make it win. eg using the high ground, flanking and getting surrounds and all that micro that i just haven't got right yet . well thats my 2 cents anyway from a gold leaguers perspective.

[happieness]

well i just started playing multiplayer 3 days ago, however the strategy u mentioned is one that i make to good use, good for defensive or offensive purposes.

recently won a game, TvP he went forge/void, i manage to delay voids but to push properly i didn have the units to sacrifice so i send ahead 13 scvs to absorb cannons and use thor/marau to finish him off. and its esp good for blocking, coming from alot of WC3 ladder

[OxygeN]

xypha : i think i agree with whatever you said, if you have to boil down everything, SC2 in its purest form would be as you mentioned both strategy and tactics. Though, the hard part is to master it, not understand it!

happieness : lol! I bet you played human or orc in wc3!

[TAEdgE]

Yeh it is good to abuse what is available, if you do it well, who's gonna stop you? Unlike a lot of terrans, you actually put thought into how to use what is advantageous to you, and i respect that. I hope you didn't take it as any imbalance whining, i just wish zerg had some cool little techniques like that. Damn defensive queens!

[happieness]

zerg has pretty damn strong offensives and probably the fastest expander.

[happieness]

You Tube

You Tube

watch this replay of the zerg.

[TAEdgE]

happiness i'm well aware of things like that, i try and incorporate it whenever i feel comfortable too, but that is so late into a game, and surviving until then in a good position is what the game is about. OxygeN is using terrans unique 'energy investment' (orbital command) to the fullest early on, while zerg uses queens for macro.

I guess you could say perfect queen usage (creep spread, constant spawn larvaing) is a great asset in any game of any style, not just one off things possibly like things discussed in this thread. I guess it's just how the mule/orbital is designed though, being able to make up for lost scvs and get a huge income in an instant if saved up, or used smartly like this. Protoss probably has the least interesting mechanic with chrono boost basically being a 'speed up' process, but warp gate is pretty damn sick.

Once zerg evolves more drops/nyduses will be more common. I've already experimented with Nydus army escapes when attacking expos. It's great!

[NvPinder]

Doesn't really matter how you like to sugar coat it, if someones entire play style revolves around never moving off one base and just doing cute timing attacks pulling half your workers and just praying you kill the guy then and there, it's a style that whilst is working well for people right now as people are still optimizing the 'standard' builds in this game, will simply get less and less effective as there's a very low skill ceiling on what the one-basers are doing and they will optimize it very quickly, meanwhile everyone else will keep on getting better and better, and the one-basers results if they continue to play this way will fade into insignificance.

there will always be a place for these strats in the game, in fact you almost need to play like this every once in a while if you're playing tournaments, because otherwise people will just punish your macro heavy style by playing even more economically aggressive and crush you mid-game anyway, however the players that simply 1-base over and over and over (ladder is plagued with these, because A) it's MUCH easier than playing for the late-game in mind, and B) it's not like you need to win a Bo3/5/7 series in ladder, its just singular games against random people that you're likely to not run into again for quite a while C)Half of climbing the ladder is gaming as much as possible, obviously the quicker you can win the better it is for climbing the ladder), are not going to progress as a player very far and they're just going to find their results getting worse rather than better.

Quick Comments

x5.Revenant:

[OxygeN]

Originally Posted by JPMoney

meanwhile everyone else will keep on getting better and better, and the one-basers results if they continue to play this way will fade into insignificance.

there will always be a place for these strats in the game, in fact you almost need to play like this every once in a while if you're playing tournaments.

That is quite contradictory there, if it is insignificant, why use it? lol.

But I agree with your post in the sense that there is a low celling on how good the one-base strat can get, that is rather undisputed, and obvious.

1 base maximum you can get is potentially 100food?

There is the celling right there.

[NvPinder]

hhhmmm, yeah sorry, I did actually mean 2 different things by those 2 lines i just didnt express myself very clearly, there will always be a place for using these strategies every now and again as a way to kind of balance your range of builds like you would in poker... eg: think of a cheesy all-in as a bluff in poker, if all you ever do is go all-in every hand in poker, bluffing 99% of the time, people are going to start realizing and are just going to start calling you whenever they had the odds to do so against the 100% range of hands you have and you will lose money very very quickly, however at the same time if you never bluff in poker and only play with strong quality hands, people will also catch on and will simply begin to fold anything every time you bet unless they have an absolute monster, thus simply playing both extreme ends of the spectrum will lose you money and you must figure out the right amount of bluffs to use in order to keep your image at the table solid. Just like you must use the right amount of cheesy all-ins in starcraft to keep your image solid and your opponents scared that you do have the potential to pull this out on them, stopping them from going something ultra greedy like a 16 nexus build. And at the same time if you always do cheesy all-ins, people will start realizing this, play very safe against you, and just make it to mid-game fine and crush you there.

[Exultant]

^ In other words, be versatile. But really, who's gonna be senseless enough to do the same macro tactic over and over if you're playing against someone familiar. Just do the same tactic to randoms if you want and vary your play when your're being recorded/ in comps.

Ye i agree that in time, there will be tons more macro-oriented games. Just like in BW, it's the traditional way of winning.

I'm noob and love one basing, faster games and usually works bahaha.