[Next_rim]

Okay, protoss, time to think of a better way to play PvT.

If you followed my previous threads, I'm pretty much set with PvZ and PvP. I love my forge-FE opening into stargate tech vs zerg, and I 2gate+forge rush in mirror into TC tech. Both styles are oriented at taking command of the game, and making opponent adjust, while exploiting holes in sudden (for opp) game plan switch.

Can't think of anything similar in PvT. Seems like there is no solid early-game strategy to make him react. You can't prevent his expansion, and have to do everything do defend against inevitable 3(5) rax stim push. T is in control of the game, and I have to adjust. Which I hate, it's not my style and mindset. Repel push, d from drops, push to hit 3rd, while getting 3rd, while dropping main, while defending drops. If you fail any of these reactionary measures, you start falling behind in macro, and eventually lose to PF, mules and 999 a-move rax spam. You have to get robo, because you can't scout. If you don't you lose to banshees. You can't push early because of bunker repair. In fact, you are the one getting pushed, because marines and marauders are very cost-effective early game.

Currently I have no choice but to play standard 3-gate expansion on small maps, and 1-gate expansion on large maps. In most games, it comes down to 30+ min macro wars with 16 gateways and 3/3/3, which I don't find very fun. They are plain exhausting, and it's almost impossible to take over control of the map. Just like Kas vs HasuObs on Tal'darim.

To add, I hate 4wg. In fact, 4wg is not that good against terran, bunker repair pwnz.

Also, I have hard time defending against scv all-ins and reactor hellion rushes. If you wall, a standard MM push will scan+stimrape it. If you don't wall, you are vulnerable to hellions. So much in early game depends on that one sentry putting forcefield at ramp. And I just proxy gate on scap station, because it is very hard to D vs 3-rax push there.

To sum up, I don't have problem beating terrans, I know how to do it. I just don't like the way the strategy feels, and would like to deviate from reactionary play.

Suggestions?

[LennX]

A 4wg push will pwn a FEing terran even with 3 bunkers as long as you get a good FF off.
If you see the terran expanding, you can choose to follow or punish with a 4wg or DT rush. Never expand 1st against a Terran unless you are really confident of holding off a push/harass. In the early game, protoss will always have the econ advanatge and army advantage(unless its a 4rax all in push).

Given the power of instant warpin and the reverse CD timer, just gun for a base trade especially when you have a 200/200 deathball with 3/3/3 ups. A terran bio army cannot fight it head on even with 3/3 ups. Drawn out macro games favours the Protoss more.

[Next_rim]

Basically you are saying, there is no other way

Makes me sad panda.

[ToRDeathsFang]

Wow you do 1 or 3 gate expands against terran? I cannot in any way hold off the annoying 3 rax so i opt for later expand (8-9 minutes) but having 3 gate robo just so i dont die early. From there the terran can do whatever he wants because as you said protoss is always on the defence, worried about drops and the hit and run tactics stimmed rax units can do oh so efficiently.

PvT is basically always going to be in the terrans advantage. Protoss is OP? Not anymore. We seriously are starting to fall behind with the bajillion recent nerfs.

[Next_rim]

DeathsFang,

I almost always play against 2-rax expo with marine pushes. So I go 1-gate expo with sentries. Recently, I got rolled by ghost timing. So I'm rethinking that one.

I've tried skipping robo, and going straight for HT, but got rolled few times by 3-rax and banshees. I want to design a build around 1:1 chargelot timing. Chargelots do well against early T bio, especially with armor upgrade. Adelscott plays gateway-only PvT and fairs well enough.

I won't be able to play till next week, because my comp at home gots a fried hdd from last night, and I'm going on a hike for the whole weekend. Anyone want to test some variations of this build?

13-gate
core
robo
forge
TC
sentry
cannons
forge
2x gate

Make 1:2 chargelots and do a deathdrop. Rough timing looks somewhere around 10 min, right when 2-rax expo becomes saturated, and T finishes those 5 rax. Chrono on probes and upgrades. I think it will be better, than DT rush. Can transition into zealot-HT too. Build cannon wall at natural ramp, so you can expand safer, if you can't finish him.

[mR.bONG789]

Originally Posted by Next_rim

DeathsFang,

I almost always play against 2-rax expo with marine pushes. So I go 1-gate expo with sentries. Recently, I got rolled by ghost timing. So I'm rethinking that one.

I've tried skipping robo, and going straight for HT, but got rolled few times by 3-rax and banshees. I want to design a build around 1:1 chargelot timing. Chargelots do well against early T bio, especially with armor upgrade. Adelscott plays gateway-only PvT and fairs well enough.

I won't be able to play till next week, because my comp at home gots a fried hdd from last night, and I'm going on a hike for the whole weekend. Anyone want to test some variations of this build?

13-gate
core
robo
forge
TC
sentry
cannons
forge
2x gate

Make 1:2 chargelots and do a deathdrop. Rough timing looks somewhere around 10 min, right when 2-rax expo becomes saturated, and T finishes those 5 rax. Chrono on probes and upgrades. I think it will be better, than DT rush. Can transition into zealot-HT too. Build cannon wall at natural ramp, so you can expand safer, if you can't finish him.

thats a terrible build, why would you go forge and build cannons if u already went robo? it makes no sense... you dont have enough of an economy to upgrade that early and you can just build more units if u want to hold any early pressure. if you have trouble holding a 3 rax with a 1gate expo then go 1 gate robo into 2 gate robo expo. you will hold a 3 rax 100% of the time if u micro correctly. going straight to templars is situational and requires good game sense to not die to banshees (eg dont go straight to ht if u see fast gas followed by only marine and no maruaders with no expo). if u want to rush then the only thing u can do against a terran is 4 gate or proxy gates. there other things like blink stalker and dt but most of the time pvt is a macro battle.

[CCJester]

im currently using fast zealot speed pushes and teching into dropship play later on...just go on the offensive and keep him turtled up ... with enough harass and the scouting you get from it... the final protoss ball should be pretty well suited to stomping him.

[SnoWPanda]

i use special tactix

EDIT: what is wrong with special tactix, you guys are so lame. Zergtastic i challenge you to a 1v1.

Quick Comments

Satu:

You're not whitera, they cant be THAT special.

[mopy]

on maps like with an easily defended natural i usually go for 1 gate expand with fast collosus and try punish the terran if they were greedy or contain them until they have enough Vikings while expanding and teching to ht. On maps with wide open naturals i open either 3gate expand or 2 gate robo.

Just a random thought has anyone tried using hallucination to make colossus so the terran over makes Vikings might be good in certain situations.

[FrOst]

The idea behind PvT early game is to know what the Terran is doing so you can react accordingly. When you initially scout their base, look to see if they are taking any gases. If you don't see any, expect either a Marine/Scv all in or a fast expand. If you do see a gas, the best idea is to keep the Probe alive and constantly poke up their ramp.

When I see a gas go down, I poke up their ramp about every minute or so. If you see only Marines and a Bunker, the best idea is to play safe and go 2 Gate Robo, because they will most likely be doing a cloaked Banshee rush, a Marine/Tank/Banshee all in or some variant of an all in. If you poke and see a mixture of Marine/Marauder, they will be either doing:

- 1 Rax Concussive Pressure into expand
- 2 Rax Attack
- 3 Rax semi all-in

My favourite thing to do if I poke and see Marines and Marauders is a 1 gate expand. You throw down your Nexus after making 1 Zealot and Stalker, then two more Gateways, closely followed by a Robo when you can afford it. Using this build I can generally hold most Barracks pressure and the 3 rax, you'll need a Zealot/Sentry composition and some map control so you have a good idea if an attack is coming. If you know the Terran is fast expanding you can either do a 4 gate, or expand yourself into a 3 Colossus timing push(I always do the latter).

If I see a potential 1 base all in, my response is to stay on one base (try to always have the same number of bases the Terran does, it works for me so meh) and scout using your Observer.

Banshee/Raven/Marine all in? Throw down a Stargate and pump Phoenix, as well as getting a Zealot/Sentry composition. You should be able to hold easily.

Thor rush? Throw down a Stargate and start getting a Voidray/Zealot/Immortal mix. Sounds ridiculous but it works trust me.

Marine/Tank all in? I prefer going 3 gate Colossus. Again sounds dumb but it works. If they attack really fast without siege pump some Immortals out, as well as having a strong gateway mix.

If you hold the all in, you have two options, either expand or counter attack. I generally only like counter attacking if I absolutely crush their army. If you expand they will sit back and lick their wounds before either trying to expand, or committing to another all in.

TL;DR: Make sure you scout before making a build commitment. I used to lose so many times when I blindly went 3 gate expand, or letting the Terran FE for free, but after learning to read what they are doing, I've had much more success.


@Next_Rim, This is a very reactive style of PvT, but it's the best way to deal with the matchup. If you don't like playing reactive I think a need of race switch is in order

[SnoWPanda]

special tactix

You Tube

You Tube

You Tube

You Tube

[Next_rim]

FrOst.510,

Thanks for a good write-up (you forgot to mention ghost pushes), but it's 100% standard play, which I am familiar with.

FML, I'm still without a computer. I was able to reinstall OS on a new HDD on Friday night, got 1 game in on Saturday before going off on a hike for 2 days. Last night I got 0 games in, cuz my sc2 gave me bs errors. QQ

Gonna spend the night fixing it( Hopefully I'll be back on track this weekend to test some builds.

[FrOst]

Next_Rim, Yeah I realised I hadn't really answered your question after I finished haha. But that's just my opinion on the best way to play PvT. Ghost pushes have never really been a threat to me, if I see them I just hang my sentries back and let them emp my zealots.

If you want to try non standard play I have a couple of builds:

1. 4 gate ( which I know you hate)

2. Zealot/Cannon rush. (build either 2 gates or 1 gate 1 forge in their base, it's impossible to stop if they don't scout it)

3. Proxy Void rays. Get 1 voidray and use it for vision so stalkers can attack. Another variant can be where you make 6 voidrays off 1 base and attack with them (Usually ends up in base trades, not recommended).

4. 1 base Colossus push. Do this build how you would in PvP, where you get 3 gates for defence then build 3 Colossi with range and push. If the Terran is not expecting it and doesn't get vikings it will really hurt him.

5. A build I saw today but haven't had the chance to try. 3 gate stargate into expand. Harass with one void ray whilst teching to DTs, then use the voidray to gain vision on the high ground to warp in DTs. Then transition into high templar or robo tech with loads of gateways.

6. 6 Gate timing attack. Very powerful if they have no bunkers. Very weak if they go cloaked banshees, but you should use my metagame strategies to see them coming.

Hope this helped.

[noobinater]

I basically use a 3gate pressure expo in every non-cheesy PvT and it works pretty well for me (vT is by far my best).

[SnoWPanda]

procrastinating have essay due in 17 hours anyway....

imo all protoss openings are quite strong vs terran
its just a matter of picking the right one, that seems to me to be your problem

1 gate robo followed by 2 more gates is the safest opening if you have abosolutely no idea what the terran is doing. This is great if terran opened 1-1-1 and you can counter whatever he is doing (all ins, blue flame, cloak banshee, watever) and expand when you feel safe usually earlier than him.

But you will be behind to fast expanding terrans.So you dont what to do that opening unless you see 2 gas.

The important thing really is deducing the terran opening with your probe. You really need to keep it alive as long as possible and hide it somewhere around terran natural and recheck the ramp at around 5 minutes see if he got bunker or maruder or marine count.

If you see him make 2 marines you can pretty safely poke with your first stalker. or you can push up his ramp with first zealot and stalker and try sneaking ur probe inside his base.

Now the standard 2 rax (reactor, techlab) expand can be countered easily by 3 gate sentry expand. You can contain him at least to gain an economic advantage or on some wide open maps u can do a 6 or 7 gate push to just GG him.

If terran no take gas obviously its 1 rack fast CC unless he cheesing, OR if terran make only 1 marine and bunker and maruder. You can do 1 gate FE against this or use SPECIAL TACTICS.

SPECIAL TACTICS
works great if terran is teching or fast expanding or its close air spawns.
you get a robo then 3 more gateways and chronoobst warp tech like 4 gating.
get a warp prism load it up with units u made from ur first gate, fly into terran mineral line, change mode, warp in units while droping. if you have a sentry, try forcefiled his ramp for lololols

check out whiteRa's special tactics on youtube

[nirvAnA]

there are actually 3-4 other "alternative" builds in PvT which are viable.

one of them is DT rushing. worked several times vs filthy/yoon the two best terran on SEA
basically all the replays/other strategies are explained in detail in TGM and im not gonna repeat them here or it will be unfair to subscribers.

basically DT rushing does NOT require you to kill scvs for it to work, just delaying his expansion while expanding yourself is good enough. if hes unprepared the game is instantly over. vs one base fast raven build orders you get super fast speed zealots instead and mass gateway units and moprh the dts into archons.