[Tom]

@Monk: Um, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with your example. In one of your examples there were 1 Protoss, 7 Terran and 6 Zerg by the Ro16 and in another example there were 0 Protoss, 6 Terran and 2 Zerg in the Ro8. The third example shows the races "breaking even", with each race halving in number each round, until the Protoss/Zerg final.

In any event, arguing about the data at this level of specificity is a waste of time. The data you have referred to is included in the Korean Tournament Results data for May (which is accounted for in the Team Liquid graph). What you appear to have have done is revisited the data used for this graph, selected a segment that apparently suits your argument (or at least doesn't look as bad as the rest of the data), and then used this to assert there is no trend.

With the greatest of respect to you Monk, I am not going to debate the figures with you anymore. It is really not worth my time pointing out gross errors of arithmetic (eg overcounting mirror match ups) or trying to explain basic statistical principles such as "don't pick a small part of a data set that suits your argument and then ignore the rest of it". I also suggest it may be wise not to lecture nGenLight (possibly the best Protoss player in Australia) on his macro ;p

[Monk]

double post on accident D:

[nGenLight]

I was offering my opinion because it was asked of me to give one. I was just telling my own personal experience of Ventral Sacs giving me fits, in no where was I calling anything OP. But all I get from you is insults and you talking out of your ass about a level of play you wouldn't have a clue about.

1. You have no clue what a multi-prong attack is do you? I can stop 20 overlords if it was the only thing coming at me.

2. Do you honestly think 20 medivacs flying towards your base is the same as 20 overlords flying towards your base? Maybe you want to start thinking about resources like food/building time/availability/opportunity cost.

3. Having the ability to scout = map control. Once you take that third base you give away that map control. Regardless, I am still able to scout through hallucinated phoenix, well placed units and usually can see things coming at me before they do.

4. You need to read, I didn't say nerf Ventral Sacs, I was asked a question, my answer was that If I HAD to nerf something that would be it because Ventral Sacs is what gives me the most trouble.

5. Yes I need to get better, it's just a little weird being told so by somewhat who is so ridiculously ignorant.

[Monk]

Originally Posted by nGenLight

I was offering my opinion because it was asked of me to give one. I was just telling my own personal experience of Ventral Sacs giving me fits, in no where was I calling anything OP. But all I get from you is insults and you talking out of your ass about a level of play you wouldn't have a clue about.

1. You have no clue what a multi-prong attack is do you? I can stop 20 overlords if it was the only thing coming at me.

2. Do you honestly think 20 medivacs flying towards your base is the same as 20 overlords flying towards your base? Maybe you want to start thinking about resources like food/building time/availability/opportunity cost.

3. Having the ability to scout = map control. Once you take that third base you give away that map control. Regardless, I am still able to scout through hallucinated phoenix, well placed units and usually can see things coming at me before they do.

4. You need to read, I didn't say nerf Ventral Sacs, I was asked a question, my answer was that If I HAD to nerf something that would be it because Ventral Sacs is what gives me the most trouble.

5. Yes I need to get better, it's just a little weird being told so by somewhat who is so ridiculously ignorant.

When I quoted you you didn't have the "I don't find this OP" part in there, as per my quote. But now you make me look like really arrogant.

Because units that have no food cost, very low cost creates a threat that requires about half your army to deal with. When the Zerg player subsequently throws cheap Roaches at your third and natural at same time whilst baited your army to your main. Goodluck getting that deathball up. With super high levels of insight, unit management and control, it is possible to defend well enough to get your deathball up before Zerg has a deathball busting unit composition.

Medivacs can be dealt by mineral dumping on some zealots or making 4 stalkers to prevent a drop. Zealots against Zerg units? 4 Stalkers to target fire 20 overlords heading your way (with no idea if theres any units in there)?

This is what you had posted when I replied. It makes you look ignorant to me.

1. Obviously. This is where I said that scouting is important.

2. No. There is a world of difference, not to mention the fact Medivacs can heal, Medivacs can also carry 8 slots. 8 Marines dropped then stimmed and right clicked on a tech structure can take it out in seconds. same as a probe line. I don't get what this difference is? Anyways. You would only need 10(20 supply) worth of Medivacs to be the same. They cost a little more, but can carry twice as much as an overlord, can heal and are very cost effective. And then now you see, a reactored starport or two can easily get these up.

3. I don't get why you have trouble with overlords drops then if you can see things coming at you?

4. I did read it, and I re-read it and still stick by my words. Did you read my post? As to your first point I clearly covered it.

5. I may be ignorant because your post came off ignorant.

[nirvAnA]

an interesting observation of the reputation in this "protoss underpowered" topic



well except for apth

[Tom]

The fact that a non-Protoss player approves of this thread leads me to doubt that there is trend in Protoss players approving of this thread!

[nGenLight]

4. It was a reply to Benji that had nothing to do with you, you come in completely out of context and call me a whiner because I am explaining to Benji the mindset that he was looking for, I was not looking for answers or having a cry. You tried to make me look like I was doing so, stay out of it.

1. What I'm saying is scouting is irrelevant. Just because you see ovelords coming does not completely stop the damage it does, because it requires a large amount of units to actually deal with them, that is a large amount of units that is unable to deal with the multipronged attack hitting your natural and 3rd at the same time with no garantee that there are actually units in the overlords, but we have to prepare for them regardless.

2. You just don't get it. Consider how much difficult it is to get medivacs as opposed to overlords, and consider the opportunity cost/time/resource/effectiveness of making 20 medivacs as opposed to 20 overlords and whether you want to "fake" a drop with them.

3. Same as point one, seeing them come does not prevent the damage they may do. I never said they were OP or anything, merely that they are extremely hard to deal with and it would be something that I PERSONALLY would REWORK. Does multi-pronged attacks happen in Silver?

5. My post was not intended for you. You are in no position to call the views of someone who has spent much more time on this game ignorant when the post was not even intended for you in the first place.

I am done arguing with you because I have to make myself think like a Silver player in order to put things into perspective to explain things to you, which you will probably ignore and continue to try to lecture me anyway, I'm done.

Quick Comments

SnoWPanda:

you show integrity in all your posts. but i suggest you give up bro its pointlses

[NvPinder]

There are poker forums where you get insta banned for arguing about low-stakes poker hands if you are a micro stakes player, or high stakes poker hands if you are a mid-stakes player etc... After reading the majority of the monk vs light posts you can kinda see their point -.-;;

That being said, light I'm not trying to come off like an asshole, from your posts it just seemed like you were more whining and waiting for someone else to solve the problem for you and complain until that happens rather than seek it out for yourself, so sorry for judging it wrong. Also I obviously never meant to insinuate that you have never gone past 2 bases in your life don't be a moron -.-, I did however say that from what I ever saw (which is mostly tournament games streamed and games you played against me, both pvp and pvz) you did a lot more 1-2 base heavy agression stuff, and in tournaments players generally tend to do what they're most comfortable with... And this was going back 3 months, long before this new notion of protosses are struggling to take 3rds against zerg came about.

Fwiw I'm not saying the only thing you should be doing is laddering hardcore and trial & erroring non-stop until you find something, but posting on a community forum where you're easily the best (active :P) protoss player seeking protoss advice is a kinda retarded outlet... ask other teammates around your level to suggest shit, because on here (and every forum, this isn't a go at sc2sea either) you're just going to get the opinion of the kids who honest to god believe "Yo I actually have sick good game knowledge, like, i know EVERYTHING about the game and strategy because i can tell you how much hp every unit has and like, I know that i should be building workers all the time and stuff, it's just I dont have very good mechanics, but seriously, I know everything else, so heres what you need to do: ***Insert random theorycraft bullshit***"

Also just my 2c on the overall "What needs to be done" thing, I don't think any sort of patching should be done at all until it is very, VERY clear a race is struggling, and I mean more than just protoss hasn't had a good tournament placing in 2 months.

Quick Comments

FaDeBadger:

Spot on

[Benji]

A new chart was just released, I took a few minutes to add some notes on when some specific balance batches came out, so you can try and understand any changes brought about by the patch. Because the chart is not very well labeled, patch dates are approx.

+ Show +

[Monk]

Originally Posted by Benji

A new chart was just released, I took a few minutes to add some notes on when some specific balance batches came out, so you can try and understand any changes brought about by the patch. Because the chart is not very well labeled, patch dates are approx.

+ Show +

I was just about to post that :P

Protoss only being down a few percent doesn't make the race under powered by any means. I think they're relatively balanced as compared to Zerg. Terran are doing pretty well for this month too. In the end, I think all 3 races from this chart are pretty balanced.

[SnoWPanda]

What I conclude from the graph:
Terran is the real OP race, protoss has the illusion of been OP while zerg is not as weak as people say it is.

[aLtNinja]

The gsl results are skewed because as the rounds go on great zergs like Losira, Nestea end up playing a bunch of bad protoss in comparison like Inca and Anypro which they way outclass.
The result comes from the few zerg making it far so a very high percentage of zerg games are from these top zerg playing against bad protoss.

[dennistoo]

Originally Posted by stormninja

The gsl results are skewed because as the rounds go on great zergs like Losira, Nestea end up playing a bunch of bad protoss in comparison like Inca and Anypro which they way outclass.
The result comes from the few zerg making it far so a very high percentage of zerg games are from these top zerg playing against bad protoss.

Sorry, are you saying Korean Code S are bunch of bad protoss? Look at MLG top 3, obviously Protoss is the weakest race atm.

Even the best protoss in the world can managed a 3rd in MLG. Your above comments makes no sense.

[SnoWPanda]

lolol ninja think! what ur saying isn't logical at all, thats like saying "if you take out MC's wins, protoss is actually doing alot worse, therefore the graph is inaccurate!"

EDIT: if you look at that way, GSL 3 where all the toss bombed out early, MC accounted for >50% of total protoss wins lol... and protoss still did the worst in GSL 3 overall. i haven't got the data to prove it but its about a good estimation if u actually watched all of GSL 3.

[Tom]

EDIT [SPOILER]:

Slayers_Alicia is the only Protoss through to the Round of 16 in the GSL Super Tournament, with a gimmicky 7 gate timing attack and a 1base void ray all-in. DT expand failed miserably.

Today, Korean negative balance sentiments towards Protoss (see link in my OP) are at the highest level since the beginning of December last year.

***

@ Benji - The TLPD International Tournament data does appear to be the best case that the races are approaching balance (as the earlier TLPD data also showed, and as referred to in my OP). On one view, it still shows Protoss is the slightly weakest race at that level of play.

What I find interesting, though, is the low number of Protoss players qualifying for the finals in these tournaments. The slightly lower win % appears to translate into a dramatically lower proportion of Protoss players qualifying for higher rounds. I am not sure why this is so.

What I think we can say about the TLPD International Tournament data is that it apparently shows a slight trend towards underperformance by Protoss, but the apparent trend is less pronounced than that from the Korean Tournament data, the "qualification" data (NASL, MLG etc), and the Korean, NA, EU and SEA GM League data. The fact that the trend in the TLPD data is less pronounced than in other data sources (but nonetheless present) would not lead me to reject the hypothesis that Protoss is underpowered in high level play.

[Benji]

Sorry, are you saying Korean Code S are bunch of bad protoss? Look at MLG top 3, obviously Protoss is the weakest race atm.

I fail to understand how having top 3 of a tournament be the 3 different races is a sign of inbalance. If anything, it shows the game isnt that bad (infact quite good balance wise). If MC placed first, and Losira 3rd, would you say that Zerg was weak? No you wouldn't, you only look at the data from the point of view that makes your race look weak (and thus is an excuse as to why you aren't ranked higher than you are).

@Tom, The data does show that Protoss is a little behind, but I want to remind you about earlier this year, around Jan/Feb when Zerg had a 40% win (the lowest representation of all the races in sc2 to date) and Zerg players were crying, saying we were UP. Protoss and Terran responded with 'learn to adapt' and we clawed back to 48%ish before the Infestor went live. There have been plenty of GSL's as well when Zerg were signifncatly underrepresented (1 Zerg in the Ro8 of March, Lowest representation of race all through GSL May), its the nature of tournaments.

Give it time, players will figure it out. One thing you can try is getting a trial or second account and play some Zerg or Terran (whatever you have trouble with) and find out what annoys you from the other side of the coin, to give you some perspective. It will improve your play.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by Benji

@Tom, The data does show that Protoss is a little behind, but I want to remind you about earlier this year, around Jan/Feb when Zerg had a 40% win (the lowest representation of all the races in sc2 to date) and Zerg players were crying, saying we were UP. Protoss and Terran responded with 'learn to adapt' and we clawed back to 48%ish before the Infestor went live. There have been plenty of GSL's as well when Zerg were signifncatly underrepresented (1 Zerg in the Ro8 of March, Lowest representation of race all through GSL May), its the nature of tournaments.

One data set shows Protoss "a little" behind. The rest of data shows them a lot behind.

The "underrepresentation" issue for Zerg is slightly different. With Protoss, it has generally been the most played race, whereas Zerg has generally had a low % of players. You would therefore expect, all else being equal, that you would see a higher proportion of Protoss than Zerg in tournaments. Think about it this way, if only 20% of players used Zerg (which is close to the actual propotion, although it is increasing) then you would expect only 1 in 5 GSL players to be Zerg. It wouldn't indicate balance, only that there is a lower player pool to begin with. Contrast this to 35% of players using Protoss but only 1 in 16 making it through in the GSL. This does indicate that there may be a disadvantage in playing Protoss.

Originally Posted by Benji

One thing you can try is getting a trial or second account and play some Zerg or Terran (whatever you have trouble with) and find out what annoys you from the other side of the coin, to give you some perspective. It will improve your play.

I have not mentioned my own play or any trouble I'm having. Thanks for the tip though ;p I barely have time to log on more than 1 or 2 days a week as it is, let alone starting multiple accounts!

[Benji]

Are you referring to the most recent graph that I linked to? Because after that was released all other data is outdated, and that graph doesn't show that big of a difference.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by Benji

Are you referring to the most recent graph that I linked to? Because after that was released all other data is outdated, and that graph doesn't show that big of a difference.

Sorry could you please explain why "all other data is outdated"? As far as I can see, that graph is one of several data sets.

[Benji]

Its the most recent data which should be used, as the discussion is wether Protoss is UP Now, and not 2 months ago.

The graph of Korean games, that shows 70% ZvP has such a small sample size that it should be taken with a grain of salt. The data linked above not only has a largeer sample size, but is also the most recent. If you want to pick and choose which data to use to suit your arguement however, then its simply a bias discussion.

I have not mentioned my own play or any trouble I'm having. Thanks for the tip though ;p I barely have time to log on more than 1 or 2 days a week as it is, let alone starting multiple accounts!

Ah kk, np. Its still good advice for other Protoss that are struggling. I had issues with my ZvP and ZvT, so I got a second account and played some from the opposite side of the matchup, and it really helps.