[iVnStinger]

I think having a top 10 without numbering would fix the problem. From what I've read no one has a problem with anyone in the top 10 list atm. Apart from the fact that TargA isn't in it.

This is how I feel about that; there are 2 ways to go about it:

1. We could form the list purely off SEA based tournaments. Giving people like KingKong and TargA potential to be in the list. The problem I have with that is then using that we could say someone like Leenock would be in the top 10 NA power rankings for winning MLGs. Also players could've played in more foreign tournaments, yet they wouldn't be taken into account because we are basing this only on SEA based tourneys.

2. We could form the list based off ALL tournaments results, but only using actual SEA players (citizens) . E.g. tourney results from team Nv who went all the way to the US for MLG. That way we keep it strictly for SEA residents and we all get every tournament result for each individual player taken into consideration.

Personally I feel the second one is better. But hey, we all have our different opinions.

My conclusion, just remove numbering in the top 10 list and everyone should be happy.

Quick Comments

	Cyanide:	it's called ranking for a reason
	breadfan:	Power... list?
	FaDeBadger:	No thanks, it's a ranking

[aLtShortizz]

Ffs. Everytime something like this comes along, be it the power rank or last years 2011 awards, some one has to have their ego bruised. Its just a bloody article/award made by someone whose willing to put in the effort to provide content that most of us enjoy. There's no reward or prize, just ego and e-prestige. I said this last year and I'll say it again, make ur own god damn list if ur so upset about it, but don't farkig
Call this stupid or retarded. This was made by members of the sc2sea community who took time and effort in researching and asking various opinions.

I enjoyed reading the article and loved how their designed the power rank page, I'm sure most of us do and would like to see more of these awards / rankings. So again if u think it's stupid or unfair, go die in a fire.

EDIT: Great job on the article btw, was a great read!

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:	that was really well said - except the die in the fire part lol!!
	Stallion:	what that bryan said
	fray`Alpha:	agreed

[SLCN.Kez]

Gl hf adding the results of EVERY tournament in SEA for a year to get an aggregate of points+placings and everything else you need to construct a top 10 list based purely of points and results in tournaments throughout an entire year. UHF did a great job but he says many times that he didnt do every tournament, and he also jumbled a few together and weighed different tournaments differently, which are all biased, arbitrary points of data and therefore invalid for anything statistically of importance. He did a great job and his hard work should be noted, but that list doesn't prove a whole lot. You can't accept some points of data (ie. which tournaments should "count") and not some others and then create a list and say "these are the top 10". The very nature of doing so is only providing arbitrary numbers to a points system that generally denotes who will be in the top 20.
That being said, when I wrote the article I didn't do very much research, as I knew who placed where in what big tournaments, coupled with the top 5 players opinions (their own 1-10 rank) to come up with this power rank, and I feel it captures the scene FOR THE WHOLE YEAR pretty darn accurately, and I'd like to see someone come up with something better.

So, tl;dr.
You're never going to come up with something 100% objective as it's to hard to get every single tournaments results+data, and leaving out tournaments is biased in itself.
Yes it is based a lot on my + top 5 'code s' opinion, which is how players rankings/seeds have been done forever, so sometimes things get messed up a lil (but i stand by the rankins 100%)
I hope you enjoyed the article regardless of where players were placed!

*edit*
I read what UHF wrote whilst still half asleep after I woke up so I only skimmed his posts, but I'm fairly sure thats the gist of it. If I'm completely wrong please correct me

[UHF]

UHF did a great job but he says many times that he didnt do every tournament, and he also jumbled a few together and weighed different tournaments differently, which are all biased, arbitrary points of data and therefore invalid for anything statistically of importance.

I did as many tournaments as I could find, which turned out to be about 40-50 events. I concede that you'd need every single event to have a 100% accurate ranking, however I think what I have is enough to find a near-enough result. I considered keeping all events in a category the same weight as each has basically the same factor of opportunity. However in reality when one event has less than 10 players, and one had over 40, it seems silly to weigh them the same.

When I said I joined a few events together, it was specifically the 1v1 finals events that were separate from the qualifiers, which seemed silly to keep separate (and double up points for winning the qualifier then winning the finals).

You can't accept some points of data (ie. which tournaments should "count") and not some others and then create a list and say "these are the top 10". The very nature of doing so is only providing arbitrary numbers to a points system that generally denotes who will be in the top 20.

I didn't cherry pick events, I used all the data I could find - nothing was left out!

That being said, when I wrote the article I didn't do very much research, as I knew who placed where in what big tournaments, coupled with the top 5 players opinions (their own 1-10 rank) to come up with this power rank

You've done exactly what you said you shouldn't do (choosing your own points of data). It's not fair to say that my data is invalid then go on to say this. This is directly biased as you picked the events, the players and the people that voted.

I feel it captures the scene FOR THE WHOLE YEAR pretty darn accurately

If you only select certain events to draw data from, then it neither captures the whole year, nor is it accurate.

I'd like to see someone come up with something better.

That's what I tried to do! My only goal was to try come up with something fairly accurate!

You're never going to come up with something 100% objective as it's to hard to get every single tournaments results+data, and leaving out tournaments is biased in itself.
Yes it is based a lot on my + top 5 'code s' opinion, which is how players rankings/seeds have been done forever, so sometimes things get messed up a lil (but i stand by the rankins 100%)
I hope you enjoyed the article regardless of where players were placed!

Overall I agree with you: my data isn't 100% accurate, it's based off weights I provided, and I didn't get every single piece of data around. However it's probably the closest thing you'll have to accurate unless someone else does a more thorough job. It doesn't mean your list is wrong and I'm not saying it is. I just wanted something for myself and anyone else interested in the stats.

I hope this doesn't come across in the wrong tone - i appreciate the effort and organising something. Just wanted to chip in!

[nGenLight]

@Kez

No you didn't do much research, and it showed in your writing. Good effort though.

Originally Posted by aLtShortizz

Ffs. Everytime something like this comes along, be it the power rank or last years 2011 awards, some one has to have their ego bruised. Its just a bloody article/award made by someone whose willing to put in the effort to provide content that most of us enjoy. There's no reward or prize, just ego and e-prestige. I said this last year and I'll say it again, make ur own god damn list if ur so upset about it, but don't farkig
Call this stupid or retarded. This was made by members of the sc2sea community who took time and effort in researching and asking various opinions.

I enjoyed reading the article and loved how their designed the power rank page, I'm sure most of us do and would like to see more of these awards / rankings. So again if u think it's stupid or unfair, go die in a fire.

EDIT: Great job on the article btw, was a great read!

You put something in the face of the public, representing an organisation, you face the hurt egos and criticism. So if you think people can't voice their opinions, go hold mummie's hand.

[Myth.ZenAku]

Haven't really read half of this thread but I think the true moral of the story is:

Don't get frustrated that people have a different opinion to you. Life is about discussions. If you're going to just make a mockery out of someone because they have blatantly not researched enough, in my opinion, don't. If the article is really bad as it is people won't believe it anyways because they know information that isn't in the article or isn't true. If they really cared that much about the power rankings they would read every single comment including a player's response to their position. If someone is going to read an article and not read the rest of the information and are openly saying they don't care about any other facts, then maybe you should really reconsider how much you really value the fact that people praise you over other people if that is the case.

No offense, but as soon as you start to insult someone based on the fact that people are sharing their opinions you automatically lose and mildly make yourself look like a fool. Share opinions until you both come to your own conclusions or the same one. If you're really so content that your story is more valid than someone else's, then by all means you should be able to convince everyone that you are right because you know absolutely everything there is and hence could deflect any point which was made against you.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm the best sc2 player on this planet. Debate me.

[x5.Revenant]

Ladies, ladies, settle down.

[FaDeBadger]

The butthurt in this thread is amazing, chill the **** out people. It's a ranking based on a bunch of high level players' opinions. Of course there is going to be bias. If you don't like it, use UHF's list. Even then the only major difference is Mafia/PiG and it's by a handful of points.

[SLCN.Kez]

@UHF Nah I didnt take offense dw, and I didn't mean offense when I brought up some things with your data, I was merely saying it isn't perfect like mine, and should be taken with a grain of salt. My point was that no system is perfect, and we're just trying to do our best pretty much ^^

[nGenLight]

Originally Posted by iM Light

*nirvAnA: *
its the hurt egos that need to hold mommies hand!! lots of drama over nothing imo

It isn't nothing. Ego is pretty damn important for mental health (which ever way you swing it, lack of or too much). Obviously when you are going to list a power rank across COMPETITIVE people (where egos are the heavily contested) your going to have many bruised egos, disagreements and backlashes. Most people will claim they don't care what people/the community thinks of them, and this is far from the truth, we all care in some form.

Having a headline news of you being put in a place you really hate is obviously going to upset you (e.g Pig>Mafia) It is inevitable. The problem is people with the bruised egos aren't dealing with the situations very well and the people who are defending the list-makers are telling people who have a second opinion to "die in a fire" or make your own.

I of course am not saying I approve of people calling people retarded or stupid, regardless if your ego is bruised. But people can definitely discuss the validity authenticity and accuracy of such content without being told to shutup and accept it as it is. Isn't this what this thread is here for in the first place?

I myself personally am pretty happy with the list overall, much like everyone else I think it is quite accurate with a few adjustment here and there. People also went ahead and made their own list. The only issue I had with the power rank was the writing. Like Kez said, there is a lack of research, a lack of insight and heavy ended on sentimentality about potential dominance in the future, lack of editing, and BAD PUNS.

We should all hold our mother's hand if we can't handle some simple disagreements.

Quick Comments

	Pandan:	Forums are literally for discussion, so I'm with RayRay +1
	nirvAnA:	oh discussion is very good, as long as its civil. i loved UHF's post!
	x5.Revenant:	*Trys to imagine a Raichu holding a Pikachu's hand.* Kawaii!

[syfChadMann]

Easy way to rank who's been the most successful over the year.

How much $$$$ They've won.

Other than that - I'd agree to that list alot and oh my word, it was well made..
Good job to everyone! Excited to see what 2013 holds

EDIT: Pandizzle.. Didn't say Best - I said Easy and is a fair barometer for success over a time period.

Quick Comments

	Pandan:	False. Best method is ELO ranking of all tournament matches. L2P
	ToR.Arnor:	Easy way in no way means best way, l2read <3
	ROOTPetraeus:	chopped

[Myth.ZenAku]

I think you're right in that sense but if everyone kept acting like the way you did, no one would ever stop being negative to each other and create an endless cycle. A place where egos stopped mattering in my opinion is when people stopped butchering each other on who is better than who. Even if you say you are better than someone else, knowing that you may never know and having that equal respect is enough for it to not matter

Quick Comments

	nGenLight:	What way did I act?
	UHF:	I don't think the thread is as bad as you make out..

[SLCN.Kez]

I don't think there is that much of lack of research other than not having all tournaments results on hand, for the major ones it was ok, IMO at least. And I will always write bad puns, i think it/they are funny and unfortunately for you nirvana still gives me stuff to write hehe but if you wish for me to stop with light ones i will, but the RAY one i really loved haha

[aLtShortizz]

Originally Posted by iM Light

You put something in the face of the public, representing an organisation, you face the hurt egos and criticism. So if you think people can't voice their opinions, go hold mummie's hand.

You can face criticism and hurt egos, but calling it stupid or retarded without even a reasonable explaination? How can we even encourage such articles in future if half the posters are hating on it over the SLIGHTEST thing. And im not even talking about the writing on the article, which is what you are upset about. I fully agree that you have the right to voice out against you since your one of the people he wrote about.(I thought the Puns were funny btw)

The elephant in the room is mafia and some others going full retard on the article and writers because he got placed behnid PiG. Personally, i could care less if the 2 switches place, and i dont think alot of people are going to come out crying about it too.

Kez, Cute and gang put on something in the face of the public, representing an organisation that provides FREE content on their own time. The last thing we need is people giving one liners like ''Retarded article'' or the likes of it. At least have the decency to explain why like UHF did(nice chart bro) and show some respect for a community that all of us claim to be apart of.

PS: I hold my mum's hand when we are crossing the road or taking a stroll, i think its very sweet.

PSS: Nothing personal Light, i`d like to think that we are having a very light hearted discussion here.

EDIT: Yeah Kez, probably a lil harsh but you get my point.

Quick Comments

SLCN.Kez:

to be fair i dont think i saw anyone say "retarded article"?

[nGenLight]

@Kez
Well I speak for myself Kez I was not impressed with what you wrote about me. The crap about "strategies not working really well" was confusing. Everyone of my friends who read it was like "meh" This guy wrote nothing about you except use your name in a bunch of puns. There was nothing really insightful about me or my performance. You even mentioned HOTS, when I've never even opened the damn thing.

You should see Tgun's notes on his private rankings, it was superbly insightful. Because he actually took the time to know/learn/speak to the people he is writing about.

Nevertheless many people seem to have enjoyed your writing here, so good on you. Yeah, good effort also, just not impressed. It ain't unfortunate for me, better someone to do the job then noone, I just don't have to be impressed by it, at least not by this one.

@ZeNaku
Which way did I behave that showed rudeness or supreme negativity? I debated with NXZ without being rude and we came to an understanding of our misunderstanding almost immediately. The rest of the thread was just people saying they agree/disagree. What was BAD was when somebody started calling other people retards and some other people responded by telling people to die in a fire to people having a second opinion in a thread designed for people to express them.

@Shortizz

No one said it was a retarded article/ranking. I only remember Mafia saying he strongly disagrees.

There is no Mafia and Gang, there is only Mafia. Are you sure you've read through what is going on? Or are you just being a drama queen.

[SLCN.Kez]

Also, at the end of the day, people were always going to disagree with me, and I fully knew that going into it when I began writing it, sooooooo yeh I dunno, shit happens I guess, it's not that big of a deal


*edit*
@light, I actually wrote a bit more stuff highlighting you your play but, for whatever reason, wasn't put in. But at the end of the day this wasn't supposed to be in depth discussion on each player, more of a brief recap about how they did and to try and make it light and humorous, which was pretty much the main goal

*edit 2* and yeah I got what tgun wrote as well

Quick Comments

nGenLight:

The only wrath you have to face is Tim's

[nGenLight]

Originally Posted by iM Light

*aLtShortizz: *
I did say or the likes of it. If you like i could also edit it into Mafia and others. Full on Drama queen btw!

Which OTHERS do you speak of Shortizz? I'm keen to know besides Mafia, who else made a big deal of Pig being ahead of Mafia? Other then that, I saw nothing but some mild discussions of people's own opinions of the rankings.

I don't mean to be offensive, but you should probably get your facts right before you argue.

Quick Comments

x5.Revenant:

Boom, headshot.

[x5.Revenant]

Originally Posted by iM Light

Which OTHERS do you speak of Shortizz? I'm keen to know besides Mafia, who else made a big deal of Pig being ahead of Mafia? Other then that, I saw nothing but some mild discussions of people's own opinions of the rankings.

I don't mean to be offensive, but you should probably get your facts right before you argue.

Oh no you missed out on NOM agreeing with Tim, now you're going to get blown up for it

Quick Comments

	nGenLight:	GG I lose
	SLCN.Kez:	Rev comes back from being innactive to start shit :p
	TAEdgE:	love rev

[UHF]

One thought I've often got stuck on is just the nature of our competitive environment. As we are such a small scene, we don't really have enough pro players to create too much variance at events. Generally it's the same people every time - especially at as the events get bigger (the variance usually comes from the lower end).

I'd actually like to hear some thoughts on what characteristics of events matter the most when determining weights. Things such as player pool, prize pool, prestige, online/offline, invite vs open, format, timing, etc etc.

[SLCN.Kez]

For me importance goes: International event (anything not purely SEA or something like WCS, WCG)
National event final (ACL'S)
Major Lan tournament (That iM Gigabyte thing targa won)
Major online tournament
minor online tournament/qualifiers for other big lan invites
minor lan tournaments (CH's, Melb MC lans etc)