[AsGNabi]

I can't believe this is still going on.. o_O

Quick Comments

syfChadMann:

neither seems pretty clear that he is a hacker.

[nirvAnA]

Final Warning

This will be the last warning, if you do not have anything to contribute to the thread in terms of analysis, do NOT post in it.

The thread has really spiraled out of control multiple times and moderators are going to step in now, either to:

1. Close the thread and any future evidence has to be PMed to crAzerk which will then be posted in the thread
2. Keep the thread open and infract heavily anyone who goes out of point / adds nothing to the thread

Had a discussion with our seal admins earlier about this and we were about to close this thread until UHF made his post. Rossi also follows up with many excellent posts in the last pages. Keep it that way, stick to the analysis and thread will be kept open.

I believe crAzerk will also be working on a compile so everyone can see everything summarized nicely in one post. Remember

1. Yes it is important to catch hackers, I am fully aware and support that cause and anyone caught will be fully punished and banned from everything
2. It is a far greater sin however, to accuse someone of hacking and completely destroy his reputation especially if in the end he turns out to be innocent.

Quick Comments

	Baldie:
	Peleus:	What's the admins decision on this? You're unlikely to see any dramatically new evidence than has been given
	AsGNabi:	So far there has yet to be any solid conclusive evidence..
	Strafe:	Agreed. I rather have 10 maphackers go unscathed than 1 very talented player getting his rep trashed forever.
	mGGDaedalus:

[AsGNabi]

Ender > Mafia

Quick Comments

	Synizta:	Debateable, also what does this add to the thread? Nothing.
	nirvAnA:	I warned her for it and she will not post after that 3 posts below.
	TABiggun:	.

[AsGNabi]

I don't know what all the fuss is about? This mafia guy chobo didnt even flinch at, he smashed his keyboard when he lost to ender. Ender truly must be the stronger player here.

Quick Comments

	Flaunt:	not cool
	Cyanide:	unnecessary, as are the 2 posts below this
	dippa:	integrity is worth a lot to some people
	Synizta:	Leave. Now. Please.
	nirvAnA:	Told chobo about this. Things are going to get really messy quick if gets personal. Stop now please, thanks.
	TADivinity:	Hurting my head
	Champi:	legit moonstar
	Dox:	sup sexy
	[TA]LoSt:	I love dox
	deL:	11/10 stupidity
	TABiggun:	.

[CHoBo(kice)]

sexy you don't need to get involved. don't worry it's not even worth the effort trust me.

Quick Comments

deL:

women are not objects

[nirvAnA]

I received two replays anonymously (not from chobo or his team mates) of ladder games played at the end of January this year.

Would appreciate analysis of these two replays from the same people who have been analyzing the games before. Anyone else who wants to do analysis are more than welcome to. Anyone else who wants to upload replays of their games against him and strongly urged to do so. It will greatly help speed up the process of incriminating him or clearing his name.

Game 1: chobo vs tgun
http://www.sc2sea.com/replays.php?do=viewreplay&id=1266

Game 2: chobo vs tgun
http://www.sc2sea.com/replays.php?do=viewreplay&id=1267

Watch game 2 with an open mind, and pay particular attention to the viking path.

Stick to the topic guys, which is the analysis of games

[Flaunt]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

I received two replays anonymously (not from chobo or his team mates) of ladder games played at the end of January this year.

Would appreciate analysis of these two replays from the same people who have been analyzing the games before. Anyone else who wants to do analysis are more than welcome to. Anyone else who wants to upload replays of their games against him and strongly urged to do so. It will greatly help speed up the process of incriminating him or clearing his name.

Game 1: chobo vs tgun
http://www.sc2sea.com/replays.php?do=viewreplay&id=1266

Game 2: chobo vs tgun
http://www.sc2sea.com/replays.php?do=viewreplay&id=1267

Watch game 2 with an open mind, and pay particular attention to the viking path.

Stick to the topic guys, which is the analysis of games

no maphack in these replays. going to check out the most recent replays now.

[Kepler]

I'm obviously not of a high calibre compared to others, but I can give a general idea. I don't claim to have a definitive conclusion, and I'm trying to be as impartial as I can. To be honest I don't really care what the end result of this is, I've just got nothing better to do except study.

Game 1: Chobo does a weird Reaper/Hellion attack, continues doing some harassment. Rallies a medivac to the corner of the map right past an OL. Harasses Tgun's front with reapers to distract him I suppose.

He drops double engineering bays well after the spire is down, almost complete, likely because he wanted to get double upgrades, which he does when they complete. He doesn't actually start turret production until he sees the spire with his hellion drop with the reaper harass at the front.

At around 15:40 a big engagement happens, Chobo tries to drop most of his army onto tgun's main plateau. Tgun obviously sees this and attacks, most of Chobo's army is in the medevacs anyway so he goes on to do the drop. Lots of stuff dies. Chobo didn't really react at all to anything off screen, he seemed pretty set on doing the drop regardless of what tgun was doing. This just seemed like a bad engagement choice for tgun, nothing suspicious in this game really. Biggest tell of all being Chobo's incredibly delayed reaction to the spire, not starting turrets until he sees the spire that's been completed for a while, etc. I'd chalk the loss up to Tgun not being used to playing such a weird opening, who goes reapers against Zerg these days?

Game 2:
Chobo scouts cross positions, he doesn't see the overlord you'd expect to see if it was close by air. First five minutes is nothing suspicious. Chobo goes for a pretty fast starport for medivacs. Chobo abuses the low ground to attack tgun's main. So far I haven't seen any suspicious reactions from chobo, he drops a third CC during his attack, I would assume because he felt ahead enough after that pressure to do it.

Now, I'm getting a little concerned at around the 10 minute mark, he glances over to fog of war to the ramp to tgun's natural, which is where his infestation pit is building. After this happens he builds a turret at his third and a PF. I'm a little puzzled as to why, but that glance at 10 minutes or so is probably the most damning thing. He gets a few sensor towers up, one in his main. This could be because he sees that the OL's have speed, and thus there could be drops happening. The lack of scouting is the only thing that concerns me here. It's possible he might have just assumed he was going ling infestor after seeing no mutas out and a bunch of upgraded lings, but I'll leave that to the more experienced players.

Chobo loses a huge engagement, a few nydus canals go down. Chobo sends two marines around common areas that it might be, considering they weren't anywhere in his main or natural/3rd. Probably just a matter of being careful. His marines actually sit outside of viewing range of the nydus worms for quite a while, the creep is only viewable. Chobo's mass of marines arrive just as tgun starts building his nydus canals, this is actually pretty reasonable considering chobo looked set to do a doom drop. Tgun just happened to be building some nydus worms the moment they arrived. Unless hacks somehow tell the future.

Chobo is getting really aggressive with drops and just generally being everywhere. But he gets cleaned up in the end, nothing really suspicious about this, you'd assume that a zerg would have this many bases after 20 minutes into the game.

Alright, viking paths. Sends it to the bottom left corner, completely bypasses the overlord to the right of his natural. Then sends it to the space to the right of tgun's main. When the viking arrives I was actually pretty suspicious that he was going to go all the way to the very top right corner, but it doesn't, and he goes on another patrol path down the right side.

So far I don't really see what's wrong with this, it's likely he wanted to deny overlords to prevent scouting and identification of possible drops, if you note the attack path of the viking he's set it all around the map, not to any specific point, just to pick off overlords that would be hiding around the map (which is what zerg players always do, you're not going to send them over land, are you?). Overlord in the bottom right is morphed into an overseer and promptly picked off later. Gets spotted as it morphs because of the attack path set all around the periphery of the map. Viking continues on its merry way a short while later, despite there not being any overlords outside of tgun's bases, barring one at the very, very top right. Chobo's viking patrol still seems very normal, he's searching areas where ground units can't reach, i.e areas that overlords can't be shot at by marines.

All in all there wasn't really much to pin on him for these two games, barring that one suspicious look in fog of war where it's possible he would have seen the infestation pit when it was building. Chobo just had too big of a trust fund and ended up winning, but it's arguable that knowing tgun was going ling/infestor would have helped. But at the end of it chobo still ended up losing a lot. If anything tgun didn't punish Chobo's gold base at all until he had far too much money that it was irrelevant.

I have to stress that I'm trying to be as impartial as I can, if I say anything wrong or misinterpret something please correct me. I'm just writing out what I see based on Chobo's player camera, his reactions and production.

[Flaunt]

http://www.twitch.tv/xeriamafia/b/320424553

1:30 bunker salvage. how does this have ANYTHING to do with maphack? sure, you do mention it as maybe 'really lucky'. uhh.. no. it's just what happens when you've cheesed 99% of your TvZ and have a good understanding of how long X amount of units take to be made to take out 1 bunker.

6:25 he rallies the viking to the most obvious overlord position and then changes mind to clear ol/check lings@third. the shift rally of the ol through out the map is just standard. how could you EVER say this has anything to do with maphack? he rallies pass an overlord hoving@your third and you accuse of maphack? isn't this normal? I thought check gas count/drone count of third was standard.

9:50 ofcourse there's going to be a ling at his third. what zerg player in GM doesn't do this? the fact you pointed this out is ridiculous.

12:30 why are you dick riding on his viking rally? wtf. you expect him to keep it at his base? there are terrans who actually play with more than one hand.

12:50 "doesn't make sense for him to look up here." he moved his SCV while checking to see if his viking spotted anything when crossing the most crucial part of the map. the thing you're missing is that he did this so he only had to use one click to check both.(save the scv and cehck viking vision.)

i checked the tgun reps and it's obvious he isn't mhing in em. maybe i missed one of the important ones? can someone point out the most 'obvious' maphacking ones. i really want to see why the pitchforks are out for no reason at all.

[dippa]

Originally Posted by Flaunt

wtf. you expect him to keep it at his base? there are terrans who actually play with more than one hand.

chill. i'm pretty sure mafia knows plenty about terrans who play with more than one hand, you know, since he's got over 1000 points in korean masters and is actually quite ******* good at this game -.-

(just saying you can object without lashing out)

Quick Comments

Flaunt:

sorry. just feel really bad for the guy since his reputation has been thrashed. sorry mafia for lasing out :)

[x5.Revenant]

With tgun's info on how camera locking works, it does seem that he wasn't utilizing camera-locking in Ender vs Chobo. The sus moments from Ender vs Chobo's games(two huge AFK moments) is very likely to just actual AFKing, with a very small leeway of him "unlocking" his camera lock very smooth.

1. The APM drops to 0 at both moments(Not sure if screen-locks does this, but if it doesn't, that means he's actually just AFK)
2. It seems with auto camera locking, there will be a "snap back to original camera view" effect which causes a jerk on the player's screen.
3. The other sus moments that occurred in the replay have been coincidences.

I'm convinced that chobo didn't hack in his game vs Ender.

Quick Comments

	ToRPeek:	Just adding the the apm drops to 0, adding to the AFK point
	Sedz:
	jayaiwhy:
	nirvAnA:	It takes courage to come back and say this after re-evaluating the games :)
	AsGNabi:	thank you :)

[iM tgun]

My thoughts:

You Tube

You Tube

Please feel free to tell me if you think I'm right/wrong and why.

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:	you are a true hero, everyone needs to watch this video with an open mind
	Nemo:	Fantastic job this evening
	AxSGRiM:
	Dumbledore:	Gj
	Champi:	spending too much time on NA, ur accent is changing mate :P
	Criven:	Such a boss.
	Fenner:	i like the way you think
	RicocheT:
	mGGDaedalus:	nice work, valid points
	DM.MCZ.Polaris:
	Sedz:	He's not the hero we deserve, but the hero we need

[Fenneth]

Originally Posted by tgun

My thoughts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZdBFc0i17o

Please feel free to tell me if you think I'm right/wrong and why.

I'm glad someone did this. It's so easy to get a warped view of things when you are only getting one side of the argument, so for someone to step up and provide a bit of balance is much needed. Defense lawyers exist for a good reason =)

Certainly there are some strange decisions and coincidences, and I think there's a good chance he really was cheating, but I don't see the iron-clad incontrovertible evidence you should have before you utterly trash someone's reputation.

Quick Comments

Flaunt:

oCe-Fenneth, king of West and slayer of BADdies.

[UHF]

Originally Posted by tgun

My thoughts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZdBFc0i17o

Please feel free to tell me if you think I'm right/wrong and why.

I stayed up to 1am last night going over things and comparing patterns of play, rereading accusations, and frankly I'm not convinced he is cheating.

Chobo generally has extensive flight patterns - sometimes they hit, sometimes they don't. The 3 games on Ohana stand out because he nets a LOT of overlord kills - however the pattern was so similar in all 3 games I feel we can chalk this up a lot of practice and knowing where to scout (it's not even that ground breaking - own 3rd, opponents expo/main, flanks of map). Yes there ARE Overlords here, but is it really that surprising? He uses similar, well placed flight paths on other maps that don't net similar kind of results (ie. OL kills).

The pauses in his actions also come up a bit. Sc2Gears parsing shows that nothing happens in these pauses. People have also pointed out that they don't replicate the standard behavior of screen-locking. His in-game APM/EPM also indicates that he is indeed doing nothing.

His scouting/scanning also comes up. People are saying he doesn't scout enough on one hand - but when he does scout with his Vikings, people call him a cheat. He doesn't scout into the main/nat with air units (one would assume to preserve his air unit from dying) but when he DOES scan in to see what's there - people call him a cheat. If you look hard enough through-out the games, you can see him miss his scans (total wiff's).

For many of the game break-downs I can find suitable alternate explanations that don't involve cheating. The biggest thing to note is that his play isn't always orthodox - but there are a lot of patterns you can pick up between games, even between different maps. In my eyes, patterns are indicative of a lot of practice, where-as if you are cheating you are more reactionary and erratic and definitely don't follow patterns.

I know all this doesn't mean he is innocent, but it puts enough doubt in my mind that I can't flat out say he is cheating. There is a lot of - it looks fishy, he didn't do X so he must be cheating, this isn't standard play, that's not what I would do. However I have a feeling you could open up any number of replays and do the same kind of thing.

I think we need something a lot more damning before we end his SC2 career and involvement in this community. I don't expect my opinion to hold much weight (like people keep pointing out, unless you're GM then they don't care), and I have a feeling by posting all this stuff in this thread I've already annoyed a lot of people & burnt bridges - but if he is innocent, then this could be a terrible mistake and we could lose a really really good player.

Quick Comments

	ToRPeek:
	Rage:	Great post.
	crAzerk:	gonna be searching for your posts as they're all good
	nirvAnA:	Don't underestimate how important you have been, and please don't stop
	PiG:

[BAD.BiGbiRd]

Originally Posted by tgun

My thoughts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZdBFc0i17o

Please feel free to tell me if you think I'm right/wrong and why.

Not sure how many people saw the CatZ/TT1/Illusion thing on Spades but this post relates to it hugely. As a player you develop habits and little mannerism's if you will that are literally impossible to change at will/game by game. I'm staying objective to this because i don't feel like getting abused by people from either side but i want to talk about the viking pathing. Ohana is a very narrow map and you will notice that the paths are almost identical in each game and low and behold there are overlords there. Not so easy to drop when an overlord see's you every time huh?? There are spots on maps where overlords will be, to scout for third timings, gas timings, good positions to sac and scout main for tech etc etc etc. 'ALL' good players know where the overlords will be and will kill them off. Whenever i go voidrays in PvZ and anyone else that goes voidrays tell me you dont get at least 3-4 overlord kills in the exact same spots on whatever the map every time??? Because if you say you don't you're full of shit or terrible. I haven't had a complete chance to go everything else and like i said i'm not saying he is hacking or not yet but as everyone seems to be up in arms about the vikings thought i would go over that first.

[syfChadMann]

Originally Posted by tgun

My thoughts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZdBFc0i17o

Please feel free to tell me if you think I'm right/wrong and why.

my responses:
@2:30 - you say his viking pathing is legit to hide the third CC.. why would he naturally go for the top above his main first? - when ever other game he has made the same pathing across his third. What you are suggesting is, he instinctively goes to send it up, then changes his mind as he has more to hide at his natural... this would be fine if his instinctive viking pathing was to go up through the main first - but thanks to UHF's pathing images, it isn't.

everything else in your video is interesting and I think does help support the case that CHobo is not a hacker..

My biggest issues are:
CHobo's horrible responses - dodging future discussions and inconsistency in his responses
EG - He says his GF was on his twitch account watching the stream then claims his Gf claims she was behind him watching.. This suggests that his moments of 0 actions might be him looking at a second monitor with the stream on - maybe he isn't a hacker, but does stream cheat - as Asgchobo was in the stream viewers list (stream cheating is just as bad, it's cheating).. and we know he has at least three screens - after his post on his set up, he shows his main monitor then talks about the other two to the side besides his 'sick DJ set up, bro'..

And also, the 6k games in season 2.. there is no doubt that he used a bot farming program in that season - there is NO way someone can play that many games legitimately, even Mafia said it would be a huge task to try and play 50+ games every single day for three months. So we know CHobo has accessed sites that have the hack programs on them - or at the least we know he is capable of abusing the game with out remorse - his explanation for this is also, pretty horrid.

I'm not sure that CHoBo is a hacker.. it's still so uncertain - but a cheat? or someone that has the capacity to cheat - I believe he is.

[Sedz]

Originally Posted by cR.ChadMann

And also, the 6k games in season 2.. there is no doubt that he used a bot farming program in that season - there is NO way someone can play that many games legitimately, even Mafia said it would be a huge task to try and play 50+ games every single day for three months. So we know CHobo has accessed sites that have the hack programs on them - or at the least we know he is capable of abusing the game with out remorse - his explanation for this is also, pretty horrid.

I'm not sure that CHoBo is a hacker.. it's still so uncertain - but a cheat? or someone that has the capacity to cheat - I believe he is.

Once again, this has absolutely NO WEIGHT on anything. Now you are just fishing for desperate excuses, give it up already and apologise to CHobo dude.

Also, I would assume the main stream and any sub-streams of the Masters Cup should be forced to have a delay on them to stop things like stream cheating happening.

Quick Comments

	syfChadMann:	What?.. it proves he has access to sites that have hacks.
	AsGNabi:	We all have access to sites that have hacks..?

[CHoBo(kice)]

Originally Posted by cR.ChadMann

my responses:
@2:30 - you say his viking pathing is legit to hide the third CC.. why would he naturally go for the top above his main first? - when ever other game he has made the same pathing across his third. What you are suggesting is, he instinctively goes to send it up, then changes his mind as he has more to hide at his natural... this would be fine if his instinctive viking pathing was to go up through the main first - but thanks to UHF's pathing images, it isn't.

everything else in your video is interesting and I think does help support the case that CHobo is not a hacker..

My biggest issues are:
CHobo's horrible responses - dodging future discussions and inconsistency in his responses
EG - He says his GF was on his twitch account watching the stream then claims his Gf claims she was behind him watching.. This suggests that his moments of 0 actions might be him looking at a second monitor with the stream on - maybe he isn't a hacker, but does stream cheat - as Asgchobo was in the stream viewers list (stream cheating is just as bad, it's cheating).. and we know he has at least three screens - after his post on his set up, he shows his main monitor then talks about the other two to the side besides his 'sick DJ set up, bro'..

And also, the 6k games in season 2.. there is no doubt that he used a bot farming program in that season - there is NO way someone can play that many games legitimately, even Mafia said it would be a huge task to try and play 50+ games every single day for three months. So we know CHobo has accessed sites that have the hack programs on them - or at the least we know he is capable of abusing the game with out remorse - his explanation for this is also, pretty horrid.

I'm not sure that CHoBo is a hacker.. it's still so uncertain - but a cheat? or someone that has the capacity to cheat - I believe he is.

You must think I would be reaaaaaaaaaaalllyyyyyyyy stupid to while logged into my account watch a stream while playing game. If I was gonna do this trust me mate, I would do it not logged in to my account for starters. That would be a blatant stupidest thing out. From hacker to stream cheat, your running out of ground? figures...

Sorry bud, I have a laptop for my dj set up. Your clearly clueless, by watching me from the screen she meant she could see that I am not hacking and at times when she wanted to see what I was actually doing because there is actually a DELAY on the stream. She was watching my other computer is faced in a opposite direction which is guess what LOGGED INTO MY ACCOUNT because she wanted to hear casting. I will post a photo of the room set-up to show you the complete room. she was fb messaging me the comments like "the caters hatin' on you"

chad. I am sure YOU deep down know I don't need to stream cheat/hack/be a boss or which ever your trying to make calls on atm... to win because I am already skilled enough to take the win. You did have interest in me for this reason did you not? sigh... glad never went down that path I would never be part of that syndicate.

Quick Comments

	inFeZa:	offtopic - DJing is the equivalent to hacking in music, so i've proven you a hacker outside of the game
	iMSystem:	^ How? O.o
	syfChadMann:	Don't bring Carnage into this - it has nothing to do with it, every other team has posted but you single out carnage.
	Champi:	stop taking stabs at carnage ur clearly not using your head when posting atm

[Nemo]

I've watched with a bunch of guys tgun analyzing many Chobo's replays. The vid is just a summary of 3 hours of streaming with people commenting on the chat. I must admit that it was really convincing. Chobo is often surprised by what happens in the game as he should be.

Note that no convinced Map Hacker in here was surprised like that in the games they were Map Hacking. It's extremely hard to "hide" the fact you know things in the heat of battle.

From the few I've read and seen I don't think he was map hacking but I'm still open to change my mind when I see the vids of Mafia and Rossi (haven't seen them yet but I will).

I thought he could have been using Production tab hacking only but tgun showed that it was not likely since one of his opponents (Peleus I think) was making roach and he didn't reacted to that at all before seeing them (no bunker, nor marauders, still sent his hellions to opponent base).

[Rage]

I still don't think he hacked. None of the evidence has been irrefutable, and the fact that most of the people presenting their accusatory "evidence" seem to claim it as irrefutable sours me on accepting anything else they say. The viking flight paths are far from irrefutable evidence, for example.

With that in mind, here's two replays that I posted earlier, but since nirvana has called for them again

http://drop.sc/191785
http://drop.sc/191786

Quick Comments

Zepph:

What is "irrefutable" to you? Obviously its not a blatant maphack thats easy to spot.