[x5.Revenant]

Originally Posted by Sedz

This is long after this. I explained my reasoning to this before.

Needs clarification, but when he looks into the main at 5:30, the camera stops for a brief period of time onto the second gas, now looking at that position, he is barely able to see the baneling nest which is in the top right part of the screen, just enough time to click on it, but surely the hack would centre directly onto the nest or he would click closer to it? Then he flicks down to the natural VERY briefly to set a rally point.

Also, the look at the natural happens BEFORE he pulls scv, surely if he was hacking he'd see the spines and queens, and choose to not bring scv's but pressure with marines instead?

Production tab is part of the hack.

The reason why he pulled halfway and then pulled back was probably because of the ling production(Mafia had ~20lings in production at that time that his SCV train was moving out, and a nest that was completing)

[Sedz]

Originally Posted by iM Mafia

The reason why he would have to send his scv's is because when you do 4 rax if you don't send your SCV's its more obvious your hacking than if u do.

It's also another reason why he purposely sent his scv's later than usual and only half way, (less travel distance back) he already planned to send them back home cause he knew he was never commiting to that attack. That has to be the biggest clue, this is why earlier when Rossi said you were just a Masters player giving advice, your understanding of the game is no where near the top level where we are.

You realise he can just not pull scv's and expand immediately anyways? He'll still be behind either way. But I do agree, that would make it more suss unless he has a specific 4rax pressure into expand, which maybe one of his wild, random builds designed to punish gasless with no spines.
I wouldn't say you guys are top level, but you're definitely good, and better than I am.

Quick Comments

mGGDaedalus:

4rax expand w/out scouting would scream IM A HACKER

[x5.Revenant]

Originally Posted by Sedz

I wouldn't say you guys are top level, but you're definitely good, and better than I am.

Rossi and Mafia aren't top level of our community?

Quick Comments

	Kepler:	I think he means in comparison to competitive SC2 in general, not just the SEA community, of which they very much are.
	Peleus:	You need to post the pic multiple times to make up for the fail of that statement

[iM MaFia]

Originally Posted by Sedz

You realise he can just not pull scv's and expand immediately anyways? He'll still be behind either way. But I do agree, that would make it more suss unless he has a specific 4rax pressure into expand, which maybe one of his wild, random builds designed to punish gasless with no spines.
I wouldn't say you guys are top level, but you're definitely good, and better than I am.

The reason why he would have to send his scv's is because when you do 4 rax if you don't send your SCV's its more obvious your hacking than if u do.

You just asked me a question that made my brain explode. And its good to see you agreed with me on something but looks like you think you know what level we're at or something

[AsGNabi]

I can't believe this is still going on.. o_O

Quick Comments

syfChadMann:

neither seems pretty clear that he is a hacker.

[Sedz]

Originally Posted by Revenant

Rossi and Mafia aren't top level of our community?

Don't make assumptions, Mafia said it with arrogance implying top level of SC, of which they are no where near. And they know it. I'll admit they are top level of SEA though.

Quick Comments

	PiG:	Unfortunately true none of us are. And reading into these points is going too far
	TABiggun:	.

[Peleus]

Originally Posted by Sedz

Don't make assumptions, Mafia said it with arrogance implying top level of SC, of which they are no where near. And they know it. I'll admit they are top level of SEA though.

They are top level KR masters, we have SEA players taking games of Nestea, how friggen far off do you think they are? He's just gone like 53 - 4 on SEA GM ladder. Pig was number #1 NA GM. We don't have a lot of strong players in SEA, but I assure you they ARE top level (of all SC).

Anyway, offtopic, I don't know why this is even a debate any more, there are literally 10's of things standing out unexplained and more than enough proof imo. I don't know what else people are expecting.

Quick Comments

	syfChadMann:	agreed
	Flaunt:	not even close to top lvl sc
	Dox:	LOL FLAUNT WOULD KNOW

[iM MaFia]

Originally Posted by Sedz

Don't make assumptions, Mafia said it with arrogance implying top level of SC, of which they are no where near. And they know it. I'll admit they are top level of SEA though.

Your the one making assumptions here buddy.

[x5.Revenant]

Originally Posted by Sedz

Don't make assumptions, Mafia said it with arrogance implying top level of SC, of which they are no where near. And they know it. I'll admit they are top level of SEA though.

It was quite sensible to think that if he were to imply that he was at the top, that it was on SEA, obviously not in the world(top of whole SC2).

Also, having a high understanding of the game doesn't directly imply that he's saying he's top level. You assumed so. You can have a high understanding of the game but not be at the top.

[syfChadMann]

Originally Posted by cR.ChadMann

OKAY ENOUGH OF THE HE SAID THIS YOU SAID THAT BULLSHIT

If you are not going to add to the discussion or bring into light new evidence or prove some sort of defence.
DON'T
FKING
POST.

The end.

just want to remind everyone of this.
if you want to debate if Rossi and Mafia are high level - do it elsewhere, this thread needs to be clear of clutter so the evidence can be examined.

Also, I think its a fair assumption - unless you you probably should comment on the strategic nature of the games.. if you see something obvious to a scrub that he is cheating - then mention it.. if not, don't post.

[nirvAnA]

Final Warning

This will be the last warning, if you do not have anything to contribute to the thread in terms of analysis, do NOT post in it.

The thread has really spiraled out of control multiple times and moderators are going to step in now, either to:

1. Close the thread and any future evidence has to be PMed to crAzerk which will then be posted in the thread
2. Keep the thread open and infract heavily anyone who goes out of point / adds nothing to the thread

Had a discussion with our seal admins earlier about this and we were about to close this thread until UHF made his post. Rossi also follows up with many excellent posts in the last pages. Keep it that way, stick to the analysis and thread will be kept open.

I believe crAzerk will also be working on a compile so everyone can see everything summarized nicely in one post. Remember

1. Yes it is important to catch hackers, I am fully aware and support that cause and anyone caught will be fully punished and banned from everything
2. It is a far greater sin however, to accuse someone of hacking and completely destroy his reputation especially if in the end he turns out to be innocent.

Quick Comments

	Baldie:
	Peleus:	What's the admins decision on this? You're unlikely to see any dramatically new evidence than has been given
	AsGNabi:	So far there has yet to be any solid conclusive evidence..
	Strafe:	Agreed. I rather have 10 maphackers go unscathed than 1 very talented player getting his rep trashed forever.
	mGGDaedalus:

[AsGNabi]

Ender > Mafia

Quick Comments

	Synizta:	Debateable, also what does this add to the thread? Nothing.
	nirvAnA:	I warned her for it and she will not post after that 3 posts below.
	TABiggun:	.

[AsGNabi]

I don't know what all the fuss is about? This mafia guy chobo didnt even flinch at, he smashed his keyboard when he lost to ender. Ender truly must be the stronger player here.

Quick Comments

	Flaunt:	not cool
	Cyanide:	unnecessary, as are the 2 posts below this
	dippa:	integrity is worth a lot to some people
	Synizta:	Leave. Now. Please.
	nirvAnA:	Told chobo about this. Things are going to get really messy quick if gets personal. Stop now please, thanks.
	TADivinity:	Hurting my head
	Champi:	legit moonstar
	Dox:	sup sexy
	[TA]LoSt:	I love dox
	deL:	11/10 stupidity
	TABiggun:	.

[CHoBo(kice)]

sexy you don't need to get involved. don't worry it's not even worth the effort trust me.

Quick Comments

deL:

women are not objects

[mGMUSE]

Originally Posted by AsGCHoBo

There was one season which I used a different ID. i did give the yamama account to my brother at this stage. this was the one which I got R2 on before second free name change came out.

doubt he would hack on my account regardless, that would be just disrespectful... me giving him a free account and him risking me getting banned.

http://sc2ranks.com/sea/251441/AsGCHoBo

I reclaimmed several weeks after second free name change was released in s6

1. Conveniently does not answer to 'are you yamama?' for a few pages, and now gives a pathetic excuse when uncovered.

2. 6k Games - Portrait hacking

Also many of his responses feel like how a hacker would reply.

I havent played sc2 in months(so my game knowledge might be limited) but watching a game of mafia vs chobo on that new map, i couldn't really point out any REALLY suspicious actions. However, he played way too risky(no scout) to be consistently beating mafia/targa/jazbas imo.

If his game sense is THAT GOOD, he should've pushed out with his 16 marines after mafia lost all his lings in the counterattack. Basic TvZ, force your opponent to make units, and at that point even a diamond league terran would make the decision to push...

Also it's natural for Chobo's friends, teammates to stand up for him, and the accusers to stand their ground firmly and keep finding evidence, just like what happened with fadeevets. I urge everyone to look at it with an unbiased opinion though.

just my 2c

[AsGNabi]

Originally Posted by mGMUSE

1. Conveniently does not answer to 'are you yamama?' for a few pages, and now gives a pathetic excuse when uncovered.

2. 6k Games - Portrait hacking

Also many of his responses feel like how a hacker would reply.

Also it's natural for Chobo's friends, teammates to stand up for him, and the accusers to stand their ground firmly and keep finding evidence, just like what happened with fadeevets. I urge everyone to look at it with an unbiased opinion though.

just my 2c

How is that a pathetic excuse? Perhaps ideally not the best or strongest 'excuse', but his reasons with his brother are their own. I don't understand how this is even relevant though.

In what method would a hacker reply? Sure he's vague, but that's literally the kind of responses he gives.

[nirvAnA]

I received two replays anonymously (not from chobo or his team mates) of ladder games played at the end of January this year.

Would appreciate analysis of these two replays from the same people who have been analyzing the games before. Anyone else who wants to do analysis are more than welcome to. Anyone else who wants to upload replays of their games against him and strongly urged to do so. It will greatly help speed up the process of incriminating him or clearing his name.

Game 1: chobo vs tgun
http://www.sc2sea.com/replays.php?do=viewreplay&id=1266

Game 2: chobo vs tgun
http://www.sc2sea.com/replays.php?do=viewreplay&id=1267

Watch game 2 with an open mind, and pay particular attention to the viking path.

Stick to the topic guys, which is the analysis of games

[Flaunt]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

I received two replays anonymously (not from chobo or his team mates) of ladder games played at the end of January this year.

Would appreciate analysis of these two replays from the same people who have been analyzing the games before. Anyone else who wants to do analysis are more than welcome to. Anyone else who wants to upload replays of their games against him and strongly urged to do so. It will greatly help speed up the process of incriminating him or clearing his name.

Game 1: chobo vs tgun
http://www.sc2sea.com/replays.php?do=viewreplay&id=1266

Game 2: chobo vs tgun
http://www.sc2sea.com/replays.php?do=viewreplay&id=1267

Watch game 2 with an open mind, and pay particular attention to the viking path.

Stick to the topic guys, which is the analysis of games

no maphack in these replays. going to check out the most recent replays now.

[Kepler]

I'm obviously not of a high calibre compared to others, but I can give a general idea. I don't claim to have a definitive conclusion, and I'm trying to be as impartial as I can. To be honest I don't really care what the end result of this is, I've just got nothing better to do except study.

Game 1: Chobo does a weird Reaper/Hellion attack, continues doing some harassment. Rallies a medivac to the corner of the map right past an OL. Harasses Tgun's front with reapers to distract him I suppose.

He drops double engineering bays well after the spire is down, almost complete, likely because he wanted to get double upgrades, which he does when they complete. He doesn't actually start turret production until he sees the spire with his hellion drop with the reaper harass at the front.

At around 15:40 a big engagement happens, Chobo tries to drop most of his army onto tgun's main plateau. Tgun obviously sees this and attacks, most of Chobo's army is in the medevacs anyway so he goes on to do the drop. Lots of stuff dies. Chobo didn't really react at all to anything off screen, he seemed pretty set on doing the drop regardless of what tgun was doing. This just seemed like a bad engagement choice for tgun, nothing suspicious in this game really. Biggest tell of all being Chobo's incredibly delayed reaction to the spire, not starting turrets until he sees the spire that's been completed for a while, etc. I'd chalk the loss up to Tgun not being used to playing such a weird opening, who goes reapers against Zerg these days?

Game 2:
Chobo scouts cross positions, he doesn't see the overlord you'd expect to see if it was close by air. First five minutes is nothing suspicious. Chobo goes for a pretty fast starport for medivacs. Chobo abuses the low ground to attack tgun's main. So far I haven't seen any suspicious reactions from chobo, he drops a third CC during his attack, I would assume because he felt ahead enough after that pressure to do it.

Now, I'm getting a little concerned at around the 10 minute mark, he glances over to fog of war to the ramp to tgun's natural, which is where his infestation pit is building. After this happens he builds a turret at his third and a PF. I'm a little puzzled as to why, but that glance at 10 minutes or so is probably the most damning thing. He gets a few sensor towers up, one in his main. This could be because he sees that the OL's have speed, and thus there could be drops happening. The lack of scouting is the only thing that concerns me here. It's possible he might have just assumed he was going ling infestor after seeing no mutas out and a bunch of upgraded lings, but I'll leave that to the more experienced players.

Chobo loses a huge engagement, a few nydus canals go down. Chobo sends two marines around common areas that it might be, considering they weren't anywhere in his main or natural/3rd. Probably just a matter of being careful. His marines actually sit outside of viewing range of the nydus worms for quite a while, the creep is only viewable. Chobo's mass of marines arrive just as tgun starts building his nydus canals, this is actually pretty reasonable considering chobo looked set to do a doom drop. Tgun just happened to be building some nydus worms the moment they arrived. Unless hacks somehow tell the future.

Chobo is getting really aggressive with drops and just generally being everywhere. But he gets cleaned up in the end, nothing really suspicious about this, you'd assume that a zerg would have this many bases after 20 minutes into the game.

Alright, viking paths. Sends it to the bottom left corner, completely bypasses the overlord to the right of his natural. Then sends it to the space to the right of tgun's main. When the viking arrives I was actually pretty suspicious that he was going to go all the way to the very top right corner, but it doesn't, and he goes on another patrol path down the right side.

So far I don't really see what's wrong with this, it's likely he wanted to deny overlords to prevent scouting and identification of possible drops, if you note the attack path of the viking he's set it all around the map, not to any specific point, just to pick off overlords that would be hiding around the map (which is what zerg players always do, you're not going to send them over land, are you?). Overlord in the bottom right is morphed into an overseer and promptly picked off later. Gets spotted as it morphs because of the attack path set all around the periphery of the map. Viking continues on its merry way a short while later, despite there not being any overlords outside of tgun's bases, barring one at the very, very top right. Chobo's viking patrol still seems very normal, he's searching areas where ground units can't reach, i.e areas that overlords can't be shot at by marines.

All in all there wasn't really much to pin on him for these two games, barring that one suspicious look in fog of war where it's possible he would have seen the infestation pit when it was building. Chobo just had too big of a trust fund and ended up winning, but it's arguable that knowing tgun was going ling/infestor would have helped. But at the end of it chobo still ended up losing a lot. If anything tgun didn't punish Chobo's gold base at all until he had far too much money that it was irrelevant.

I have to stress that I'm trying to be as impartial as I can, if I say anything wrong or misinterpret something please correct me. I'm just writing out what I see based on Chobo's player camera, his reactions and production.

[Flaunt]

http://www.twitch.tv/xeriamafia/b/320424553

1:30 bunker salvage. how does this have ANYTHING to do with maphack? sure, you do mention it as maybe 'really lucky'. uhh.. no. it's just what happens when you've cheesed 99% of your TvZ and have a good understanding of how long X amount of units take to be made to take out 1 bunker.

6:25 he rallies the viking to the most obvious overlord position and then changes mind to clear ol/check lings@third. the shift rally of the ol through out the map is just standard. how could you EVER say this has anything to do with maphack? he rallies pass an overlord hoving@your third and you accuse of maphack? isn't this normal? I thought check gas count/drone count of third was standard.

9:50 ofcourse there's going to be a ling at his third. what zerg player in GM doesn't do this? the fact you pointed this out is ridiculous.

12:30 why are you dick riding on his viking rally? wtf. you expect him to keep it at his base? there are terrans who actually play with more than one hand.

12:50 "doesn't make sense for him to look up here." he moved his SCV while checking to see if his viking spotted anything when crossing the most crucial part of the map. the thing you're missing is that he did this so he only had to use one click to check both.(save the scv and cehck viking vision.)

i checked the tgun reps and it's obvious he isn't mhing in em. maybe i missed one of the important ones? can someone point out the most 'obvious' maphacking ones. i really want to see why the pitchforks are out for no reason at all.