[PTSZ]

Hi guys, a zerg player here - was hoping I could get some advice on dealing with protoss in late game. Diamond league is proving to be tough - linked are both two long macro games vs protoss.

http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=472

I did a lot of counterattacking and got a lot of probe kills, but he still ends up overwhelming me at the end with archons.

http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=473

Once he had his third base, he was impenetrable. Was losing this just a matter of not expanding aggressively enough? His harassment was really difficult to deal with.

[Apth]

Originally Posted by PTSZ

http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=472
http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=473

First of all - your play is pretty solid. There aren't any gaping holes in your macro or basic mechanics, at least from my Plat perspective. No doubt some of our TGM coaches would disagree.

Game 1 - vs Nomad
Nydus Worms - The Nydus harassment did so much damage to your opponent. His econ was far behind yours at several points this game, because you obliterated all his probes. Good work.

Upgrades - You started 1/1 at 30 minutes. This contributed heavily to your loss. Heavily.

With a unit composition like Roach/Hydra, your damage comes primarily from the number of units you have - not from positioning like Ling/Infestor or a critical mass like Muta/Ling. Each unit you create/lose has a noticeable effect on your army's damage output, as opposed to being able to throw away Lings left and right, and not suffering too much.

Upgrades are effective the more units you have - and because your unit count is of such importance to a player going Roach/Hydra, so should Upgrades be.

Conclusion - You had an econ advantage throughout most of the game, but he was able to keep army trading even though you had a supply lead. IMO this was largely because of positioning - you fought on ramps and in chokes a lot, and this resulted in his forcefields being ridiculously effective.

Try using Changelings to keep tabs on your opponents army - if you A-click a changeling to an enemy unit, it will follow it - then engage your opponent in open ground. Make sure you attack your opponent from more than one angle - Protoss deathballs are only scary if you attack them head on.

Game 2 - vs Infectted on Shakuras Plateau
Early Game - you scouted a Forge Fast Expand. I wasn't a fan of your response to this - firstly you put down a Spine Crawler, when you were aware that there was no attack coming (bar Nexus cancelling sneakiness).

Secondly, there was no expansion or pressure. IMO, if you see your opponent taking an economic advantage - like a Forge FE - you need to deny him this advantage either by taking an early third, or putting on early pressure. I've been consistently demolishing FFE on ladder with Baneling busts.

Scouting - you never scouted his main, in a game lasting 30+ minutes. You were aware of his expansion timings to a reasonable degree, but had no idea about his tech. You did have an Overlord positioned to sac/scout, but you never used it.

Upgrades - I can't emphasise this enough. Upgrades are - IMO - critical for Roach/Hydra. Refer to my comments for game 1.

Conclusion - you let him take an economic lead - at 12 minutes the worker count was 71 to 47 in his favour - and you were never able to capitalise on having a larger army earlier than he did. I would suggest making the decision to either macro up or be aggressive a lot earlier.

Overall
First and foremost I would focus on getting upgrades as soon as possible - especially for Roach/Hydra. Upgrades rock man, watching 1/0 Lings tear through unupgraded Lings makes me so happy. Get upgrades. Do it.

I would also put some thought into your economic position vs your opponents economic position. If you recognise that your opponent has an economic lead, make a decision about what you're going to do about it. Don't dither.

Aside from that, some pretty sexy games, especially dat Nydus harass.

ggwp

Quick Comments

	Nemo:
	PTSZ:
	TragicHero:

[PTSZ]

Thanks Apth for your feedback. I'm really working on getting upgrades, and just starting them earlier in the game now as part of my general builds (getting the evo chamber at around 30 supply).

I think what really hurt me in the 2nd game was not taking out the pylon that denied my third - first he cannoned it from the high ground, so I cancelled and placed the hatchery at the expo close to the watch tower, which was then sniped by dark templar as soon as it completed. Then, later in the game, he sniped my 5th base with warp prism zealots and dark templar coming from the same area. I just got totally picked apart.

Working on being ready for this kind of harass is probably going to be the next part of developing my play.

[MazEi]

Hey guys, I just lost to some warp prism harass on backwater gulch. Now apart from the obvious I should have reacted properly by bringing my army to defend quicker and gotten up some turrets, I was wondering whether my 1 Rax FE is a reason why it was so much harder to defend against it.

http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=486

Any thoughts? Feel free to comment on my other mechanics as well(since I do want to improve that part as well although this is quite a short game)

EDIT
Gold league btw if thats relevant.

[Nemo]

Originally Posted by mazei

EDIT : Gold league btw if thats relevant.

Yes it is. You don't need the same advice at bronze, Gold, Diamond or Master/GM.

Originally Posted by mazei

Hey guys, I just lost to some warp prism harass on backwater gulch. Now apart from the obvious I should have reacted properly by bringing my army to defend quicker and gotten up some turrets, I was wondering whether my 1 Rax FE is a reason why it was so much harder to defend against it.

http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=486

Any thoughts? Feel free to comment on my other mechanics as well(since I do want to improve that part as well although this is quite a short game)

HotNoodles vs NoobCraft

• Blackwater Gulsh
• Length : 14:42
• Version 1.4.1

Replay Analysis

• 4:46 : You let your SCV die (killed by the zealot) before seeing if the have taken his second gaz

And in fact, he did:

• 5:33 : As long as VR attack is possible, avoid putting depots in those easy attackable position for them. You can't loose depots if you're attacked by an All In and you have fast expanded. Your depots at your wall are already exposed. Better to make your 2 marines patrol along that side of your base to scout.

• 5:31 : Not optimal, defense on his first push.
  • You mess up with the depot, letting the Stalker enter after having closed it;
  • You didn't put all your marines in a control group letting 2 marines idle on the edge of your base.

• 5:42 : You're out of the mess without too much damage. Situation is Equal and you have a CC.

• 8:37 : You reacted too slowly to his drop, you lost 5 SCV before taking them out

• 9:08 : You see him heading towards your natural and don't react quiclky enough. You're also not producing units (see Your barracks).

• In result they have 9 and 8 kills each that's a lot. To defend against drops:
  • Be attentive to the minimap and pull your VCS quickly
  • When you see they are heading to the natural, split your army to defend both bases
    • Make 2 groups and put them in shortcup 1 and 2 and when producing new units, add them to each group. It's of the outmost importance to have all your army fighting
  • Continue unit production, SCV and Units
  • Don't waste too much in Turrets, better to have 2 strong mobile groups
  • As soon as you have money left after producing units, tech to Viking, They are the answer to WP, Collossi and obs (Robo tech). That allows you to have access to Raven if needed and Medivacs.
  • If you see Immortals, make marines. They are better vs them and Zealots that are the mineral drop that come along Immortals.

Groups arriving too late.


Marines not in group and then lazy. Make 2 groups to defend both bases



From that point you've lost:



I don't think you can't 1 rax expand, that's just harder to defend. Your opponent was quite opportunist and rightly abused of the Warp prism but he was not very good on macro since he didn't produced drones during the harass. So beware, 1 Rax expand will be always harder to defend against any 1 base All-in, possible, but harder than a 2 Rax into expand for example.

Strong points

• Good timing for your build
• Defense of drop not bad. It's hard to do.

What could be improved

• Put your army in 2 shortcuts when Harassed
• Continue production cycles.

[MazEi]

Thank you so much Nemo. One thing I've been doing is to try to ignore micro to focus on macro a lot more. But I seem to fail at that thus lacking in both micro and macro(thus the army splitting is bad as well as production stops for long periods of time). And I have really bad mini-map awareness which I hope to be able to rectify really soon.

So thanks again for the advice and hope to be able to improve =)

[Nemo]

Originally Posted by mazei

Thank you so much Nemo. One thing I've been doing is to try to ignore micro to focus on macro a lot more. But I seem to fail at that thus lacking in both micro and macro(thus the army splitting is bad as well as production stops for long periods of time). And I have really bad mini-map awareness which I hope to be able to rectify really soon.

So thanks again for the advice and hope to be able to improve =)

You're welcomed.

In fact, it's when you put yourself in such difficulties that you learn. That's harder than just making units and A-clicking, then you learn more like that.

There's a lot of possible openings in TvP of course but 1 Rax expand and 2 Rax are probably the more classic. There is different philosophies behind that:

• 1 Rax expand give you a economical edge for the middle of the game but you could be under pressure if the goes for a 1 base attack.
• 2 Rax counters more easily 1 base pressures but you need to pressure yourself if opponent 1 gate Expo.

If both players goes 1-Base opening, they are even and the best macro player will have the advantage after.

In conclusion, when you're making 1-Rax-Expand, finally you're trading harder micro at the beginning for easier macro after, then you're investing on ... your micro skill.

So just play the style you like, both will help you improve macro and micro.

[cloudfive]

Hey guys I'm moving along the ladder pretty good, feel pretty confident against other protoss and zerg. terran seems to give me the most trouble. I just dread playing them. any who in general any gameplay improvements you guys want to point out would be greatly appreciated here is a replay I'm silver but I play gold players mostly
http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=491

[Nemo]

Originally Posted by cloudfive

Hey guys I'm moving along the ladder pretty good, feel pretty confident against other protoss and zerg. terran seems to give me the most trouble. I just dread playing them. any who in general any gameplay improvements you guys want to point out would be greatly appreciated here is a replay I'm silver but I play gold players mostly
http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=491

Cloudfive vs HumanPaladin

• Shakuras Plateau
• Length : 25:36
• Version 1.4.1

Replay Analysis

• You're saving too much Chronoboost, chrono as soon as your pylon is down to have quick minerals:

• You scout correctly a 3 rax no gas, the alarm bell is ringing loudly, you should make units and especially stalkers and sentries if you have some gaz left. Don't make a robo, there's no Marauder, Tanks (Immortal) and banshees or Ghosts (obs) coming soon. Even the 2nd gas seems risky to me.

• • First of all send all your stalkers nearby your enemy base to kite the marines and SCVs (if All-In is coming) during the way back to your base. Be sure that when your not watching your Stalkers, they retreat a bit (for a few seconds only).
  • It's the utmost importance to manage your base with shortcuts the maximum to keep your eyes on your stalkers and not loosing them when the is going to attack.
  • Don't chrono your gate research, put down as much gate as you can afford, and make units, Chrono them, especially stalkers (with 2 sentries max I think) that are the best anti-marine you will have and will do huge damage to enemy units while kiting them.
  • Why Stalkers are ideal to do this job of kitting : They are quicker than Marines and SCV and have +1 range comparing to marines (6 to 5). You should not loose any while kitting to your base. That's very micro intensive, but when it's too intense or you have lost too much shield, just retreat the time to recover it and manage your base.
• The battle :
  • 5:43 : Bad army placement. Your sentry should be behind so you don't loose it at the engagement;

• • 6:07 : The marines arrive, too slow to FF. In beginning of PvT when an attack is waited, watch your ramp nearly all the time with your army in a shortcut to FF immediately;

• • 6:25 : Bad way point for your gate leading to the loosing of your new sentry.

• 7:30: End of Battle:
  • You warped 1 unit. If a very quick attack is coming make units, you don't need quick warp, it won't be there in time. You only warped 1 zealot during the battle;
  • You are building a Immortal that is not quite good vs marines;

• 7:44 : Full energy on Nexus, 1.000 minerals in bank. I know the battle was shaking but first priority is to macro again quickly after.

• Until 8:40, full energy on Nexus, still 1000 min in bank. After such a push, scout with a stalkers and try to expand. It's only 100K mineral lost if you have to back.

• 9:18 : You send your obs to enemy base which is good but you should control the path to your base while doing this to see any attack coming.

• 9:40 : Your opponent over-extended and you can pursue and destroy all his army before it get back and then win the game as your opponent expanded and you have a now useful immortal. You should not have stop your pursuit.

• 9:50 : What are you doing with this warp prism ? Don't try to harass at that moment. Expand or kill him right away with all your forces.

• 10:40 Now you're far behind as your opponent have a Orbital command down 2 bunkers , have teched to starport, have tech labs, reactor and you still haven't expanded. From that point you nearly already lost. The main effort you have to do is BEFORE that point and mainly macro after his first push;

• 17:42 : You push but because you were far behind, you loose a lot of stuff

• 22:20 : Excellent defense at your choke The cannot pass because he has no Vikings. But that's still a desperate (funny, my wife is listening to those "housewives" at the moment ) game now

• 24:47 : Ha, ha, you're sure toying with him with those rocks.

• But he got you in the end:

Strong points

• You're doing quite well with your Stalker micro and kitting. Use that to control the map before the is able to push and to kite him on the road to your base

• Your build order 3 gate Robo is well executed, but you don't adapt to what your opponent is doing. He does a quick full marine rush. Rush stalkers and some sentries, don't waste Chronos on Warp, put them all on units. Don't make a robo against no gas s

What could be improved

• Change your plans when needed
• Take the map with a zealot and Stalker if no Marauder with concusive shell on the field
• Protect your sentry
• Expand more quickly after a push, control the map with a stalker or drone

[cloudfive]

ah man thanks sooo much super helpful! really! I didn't know about not going robo if no gas. what build order would you suggest? Im just comfortable with that observer. Thanks again insanely helpful! I will be referring to it as well!

[|Erasmus|]

If you scout no gas for T (and several rax, so you know it's not a 1 rax expo with bunkers up) then isn't your best play going to be chronoboosting out 2-3 stalkers and poking up their ramp? Stalkers are faster and outrange marines, so you can pick off so many of them without taking damage. if they actually want to attack you without marauders and concussive shells, you can kite all the way home picking off units (then just forcefield your ramp and laugh at them).

And if you want a full scout of their base without going robo, get hallucinate and hallucinate a phoenix. Also guardian shield is so good against marines (relatively) low damage but really high fire rate attacks.

[Nemo]

Originally Posted by cloudfive

ah man thanks sooo much super helpful! really! I didn't know about not going robo if no gas. what build order would you suggest? Im just comfortable with that observer. Thanks again insanely helpful! I will be referring to it as well!

Glad it helps.

As Erasmus said, put down 3 gates, make and chrono stalkers then poke the Terran and kite his marines as you did in your base. As long as there is no Marauders, they reign on the open field, you don't need obs (and as long as there is no cloaked Banshee or cloaked Ghosts).

[FaDeHellfyre]

Hi all, first time asking for feedback, so be nice .

This is round three of the BSGCL last night, i play as random and unfortunately got protoss, probably my weakest race, however i won't complain because i want to stick with random. I know that my defence against the drops was horrible to say the least, thats not what i'm worried about for now. I would like to ask for tips/advice on my macro in particular.

Replay link here

Check out the two games that i won if you so desire as well, but i would prefer to just have criticism on the match that i lost. cheers.

Round 1
Round 2


Thanks in advance ,

Hellfyre

[SLCN.Kez]

Hey guys Im a zerg here, recently ive been having a lot of trouble with ZvP macro games, i can do fine if all they do is a 2 base timing push, but when they expand and all that i just cant seem to keep up, would appreciate any feedback you can give me! http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=500

(note, i dont usually go banelings drops vs toss but ive been trying it out, so maybe i over committed to banelings and shoulda just made corrupters?

[PTSZ]

Hi Kez, feedback from a diamond zerg here (not sure what league you were, but looks like at least high platinum or diamond or above?)

1 - First, I think you held off that 2 gate zealot opening beautifully and it kept you on even terms with the protoss right up until the first major engagement. Drone count and third base timing was good.

2 - First push from protoss - He realised he wouldn't be able to break you without some heavy losses and pulled the majority of his forces back, keeping them alive to form part of the deathball later on. Personally, when I see a stalker heavy composition during this first push (especially one without blink), I like to go a bit heavier on speedlings in a ling/roach composition. Burrowed roaches are great, but with a higher speedling count, you can really punish the protoss army when it tries to retreat. Getting surrounds on the stalkers is good, plus it forces more forcefields out of the sentries, when can then be countered by your burrow move if he chooses to engage after all.

3. Another thing you can do is be more aggressive - cut drones slightly earlier and aim for a roach/ling or roach/hydra timing attack around the 11.00 - 12.00 minute mark to deny the protoss third and pre-emptively deal with the warp-gate push. This is a bit more risky than droning, but it's a nice alternative to playing passively and trying to build up a big macro advantage, which you will be able to do anyway if you deny the protoss third.

4. After he pulled back, you want to put down your fourth base ASAP and get the gas geysers immediately. Around the 14.30 - 15 minute mark would have been good. This would have allowed you to get the gas needed to build up a good corrupter count even after the baneling bomb engagement that happened around the 18.40 mark. The baneling bombs worked really well, especially given that he didn't get blink or any armor upgrades, but you just didn't have the gas needed to kill off those OP colossus.

Summary - The main things that hurt you were not getting your fourth base gas geysers sooner, and not trading enough with the protoss ball earlier on. I feel that as zerg, you need to do damage to his army or expansions earlier on, otherwise as soon as he gets the magical 3-4 colossi to support his ground army in the late game, it takes a lot from zerg to knock it down. On the plus side, your mechanics seem pretty good and your upgrades were excellent.

Hope this helped.

Quick Comments

Nemo:

Good analyze

[Nemo]

Originally Posted by Hellfyre

Hi all, first time asking for feedback, so be nice .

This is round three of the BSGCL last night, i play as random and unfortunately got protoss, probably my weakest race, however i won't complain because i want to stick with random. I know that my defence against the drops was horrible to say the least, thats not what i'm worried about for now. I would like to ask for tips/advice on my macro in particular.

Replay link here

Check out the two games that i won if you so desire as well, but i would prefer to just have criticism on the match that i lost. cheers.

Round 1
Round 2


Thanks in advance ,

Hellfyre

HellFyre vs TABottles

• Clan War KA vs TA
• Antiga Shipyard
• Length : 17:41
• Version 1.4.1

Replay Analysis

• 2:39 : Why do you go for a forge instead of the Cybernetic Core ? in BSG, make simple and robust builds : 3 gate Robo : http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/3_Gate_Robo.

• 3:07 : What an awfully long supply block, you even Chrono your Nexus during the whole time your supply blocked without launching a pylon.

• 4:30 : Core after expand, you're still doing nothing with your forge, no cannon, no upgrade. I consider you have already lost at that time in fact.
• 6:27 : Now a robo while you have only one gate. You're only one drone ahead of your opponent with 2 Nexus and while your opponent have a command center. look ate the difference of army size.

• 8:46 another supply block at 44. You're opponent instead of just killing you decide to expand but consider he could have just killed you right away.
• 11: You catch on on army because your opponent didn't capitalized on his advantage at the right time, but look ate the worker count, you're behind in spite of your Chrono and he loosing time when making Orbital Command;

• 11:40 : Another hardsupply block

• 12:39 : The idea behind having observers is knowing what your opponent is doing, so control the space between your bases to avoid being surprised by drops like that. But anyway you were too far behind already, that's not why you lost.

• 13:22 : You see his army moving with a drop coming. 3 Stalkers would be enough to counter the drop while the rest of your army take the main army head on.

• 14:36 : After the multi-prong attack, you've lost too many drones, the end is already written.

Strong points

• Expanding quickly

What could be improved

1. Make a valid build order. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/3_Gate_Robo then expand
   • Gates give you units to early pushs that are very powerful in this Match Up
   • Robo give you obs to counter Banshees or rushed cloacked ghost. It also give you the possibility to counter Marauder heavy builds by Immortals or Marine heavy builds by Colossi
2. Don't supply block !
3. Use your obs to watch for drops

[FaDeHellfyre]

Thanks nemo

Will work on those things. Love the way you post help, with the screenshots, very informative.

Thanks again

[lolwut]

could someone pelase give link for uploading on sc2sea?

[Apth]

Originally Posted by lolwut

could someone pelase give link for uploading on sc2sea?

http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=add&cat=

Link is in OP

[lolwut]

TY Apth. Here is my replay. http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=502