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iM MaFia · Tue, 5th-Jun-2012, 1:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AsGCHoBo

Dude I appreciate the fact that people make the decision after they here both sides of stories. But this could go on forever. I know I am innocent, my girlfriend knows I am innocent... This is all I need to really be at peace with myself. The fact a few others are neutral and cant come to a conclusion and I know I have support others is enough for me to say its inconclusive.

I really do not have the time to sit here and argue every single situation and position. Sorry. I am sure admins including nirvana and others will watch replays and post their views because this is a massive accusation and give their conclusions.

your sc2 career is on the line here and you dont have enough time to sit here and defend it? alright then buddy

Quick Comments

	NvJazBas:
	Baldie:
	syfPhoenix:
	Zepph:
	SmirkToT:
	Zealo:	i've never got the impression that chobo cares about his 'sc2 career'

NvJazBas · Tue, 5th-Jun-2012, 1:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iM Mafia

can jazbas and muse watch these repalys please.. i trust them at their maphacker detective work the most!

I'll be home really late + probs drunk today.. I'll watch it asap! maybe before tomorrow noon!

Quick Comments

TAEdgE:

didn't know you were an alcoholic now :D haha

**Sent1nel** · Tue, 5th-Jun-2012, 2:00 PM

@AsGCHoBo - Mate you really need to come out swinging if people are accusing you of cheating. You can't simply sit there and say I'm "at peace with myself". That's option number 1 in the "Deny I'm a Hacker" handbook and you really aren't doing yourself any favors. If you don't hack and you care about the SC2SEA community you need to prove yourself - no one wants to see a legitimate player get banned.

Quick Comments

	TASlowHands:
	NvJazBas:
	Zepph:
	Maynarde:
	nirvAnA:

ROOT`iaguz · Tue, 5th-Jun-2012, 2:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iM Mafia

7:03 ~ HE LOOKS at bunker BEFORE the queen even attacks it. you watch the replay again son

I did. He's going up the minimap ordering his marines as he's scrolling up then he gets to the bunker. He sets a rally point to go somewhere as if going to pull his marines out and look around a bit, then gets hit by 2 queens then exits and salvages because he can't fight back. It's an extremely quick decision but like I said, this guy 11/11's a lot of ******* times.

7:42 ~ yeah okay ill give him the benefit of the doubt here, hes just checking to see what he "already knows"

A statement that argues nothing

11:28 ~ its the fact that everytime he touches his hellions or vikings or whatever units its for a reason either to take the watch tower or exactly kill something that's there. HE IS NEVER running them around doing nothing because why would you when there is nothing?

In the metropolis game his viking does check a fwe pointless areas. He's very thorough with his viking paths in general. He finds overlords because there are overlords there to kill. Vikings that look for overlords like that frequently find them because they are almost always there.

14:40 ~ good starsense to leave units back for counter attack when there is a blob of pink shit at his 4th, doesnt need to do it later in the game when he pushes out though cause there's nothing on the map. Im sure if u analysed more replays here you would find the same consistency in other replays.

It's just good terran play? Not sure what you mean by this

16:00 ~ Are you trying to justify a terran not scanning or scouting an entire game basically at this level we're at, but in the exact same map vs me when i make a spire at like 9:00 he scan's right away to see it so he can make turrets. How many terrans out there can play this well without needing to scan, because its evident in all his games he never does it, unless he has to in order to not look sus for putting down his anti tech buildings.

Different games that played out differently. In the ohana game vs ender, he didn't scout for anything because he knew he didn't have to at those timings. When he's killed the natural with his 2rax and sees a double expansion you know 100% of the time there's no mutalisks coming out because he's too stretched to fit them into his build. Again, chobo 11/11's a lot, he's probably played out this situation a lot of times.

In the ohana game he went for an all in, scratched it when it got spotted and hope you'd overreact to it, take a huge greedy risk to get back into the game, have it work, notice you're at lair tech cuz you're trying to morph an overseer and then scan to see what tech path you're on. Sensible terran play. Though he definitely should just throw up at least 1 turret at each base just in case!

16:54~ THERE WOULD BE NOTHING WEIRD if there happened to be no more than 40 zerglings AT THAT exact location when he selects it.

Hm? He selects it because he just noticed it was doing something weird. If he knew there was 40 zerglings there then he would know that scv isn't coming back alive and he'd move up hellions or smth to go kill them. Sorry I don't accept this argument

17:18~ He moves it again because he knows theres a PINK DOT THERE. No other reason to change ur medivac pathing and spam it exactly where the PINK DOT ISNT THERE.

I agree it's kinda weird that he orders that drop multiple times, but he ends up flying over the ling anyway so.... ok? I know I've sometimes ordered a drop multiple times either cuz I'm bored or it's just how I did it. It's not necessarily suspicious, particularly because he flew right over the ling anyway

19:38~ Yes he's already won the game and can't lose from here because he has good hacks.
Im just saying that he even knows where to send his ******* army to the point of the map right infront of his opponents shit on the minimap. Thats what you would do if you SEE the minimap. Right? You could easily just A MOVE to your opponents hatchery or ramps or whatever but he managed to EXACTLY PINPOINT just under his opponents shit

Huh? Ender has his army in his base because there's no other place it should be. He does a huge a move and rally there because he knows he has an overwhelming advantage. There is nothing weird about that. Of course the rally and a move are going to be right near his army cuz he has no creep, he's just had to respond to a pair of double drops and there's no other place that army is going to be.

Comments in bold.

Again, I do agree that he is a bit suss sometimes, the early game of shakuras is really strange, incredibly suspect. It's definitely possible that he is a hacker. I'm just providing legit explanations to the situations you're describing because I really don't like calling people hackers most of time. We don't have 100% definitive purely objective not based on speculation or reasoning at all proof that he's a hacker. We have to give people the benefit of the doubt in that sense or it's ******* bullshit.

Quick Comments

	iM MaFia:	How often do I call ppl hackers? first time ive ever done it mate
	ToRSpartaz:	Nice perspective Iaguz
	nirvAnA:
	CHoBo(kice):	ty

SanG · Tue, 5th-Jun-2012, 2:07 PM

if you are innocent chobo, I don't think personal attacks are going to help you prove your innocence.

Could you at least post the missing replays of the master cup so we can analyse them please?

**nirvAnA** · Tue, 5th-Jun-2012, 2:08 PM

gonna step right in and say this

hacking is a very very serious accusation. it can absolutely destroy a players reputation and career, even if unproven, the stigma will stick around for a while. hence as tgun said there needs to more caution especially since chobo just won the masters cup, this is huge. if he is found to be hacking, of course he will be punished, have his wins and titles stripped and be banned from all tournaments etc. and that is a very big IF.

be neutral in the replay analysis - from what i've seen iaguz's was the only neutral one in the sense that it made a big effort to mention all the non-suspicious stuff as well. this is how analysis should be done, objective, neutral and giving the viewer full information and not skewing it to look like just one suspicious thing after the other.

everyone else's analysis was just mentioning the suspicious stuff and ignoring the moments that weren't like chobo's army walking straight into the baneling land mines, flying over pylons, not being prepared for the 6 lings, etc

the cr thing - the point chobo is trying to make is there is a lot of resentment now from certain people against him, which was apparent in his gaming set up thread. can you honestly say if he was in the team as cRchobo, would sensei and fourby have neg repped him for that thread? ask yourself that question. he would just be told civilly it was in the wrong thread. and this is related to this thread too because those some of that group that do not like him and are judging him already like he is guilty.

how you can help -

both sides please stop all these personal arguments right now. focus on the games and get the thread back on track

get anyone who has played against chobo to upload their replays against him. the replays you want are ladder / tournament games which he expects nobody to watch. start with the SEASL games there are bunch in the replay db I believe from the qualifiers and finals, so the replays are sitting there waiting to be analysed. if hes hacking sooner or later very strong incriminating evidence will surface, like what happened in the fadeevets thread. and if you do find very strong evidence that he does not hack too in those games, be fair and post about it.

the worse thing is for an innocent person to be accused of hacking or a crime he did not commit, so take caution, gather more evidence and reserve judgment till the undeniable evidence presents itself. you would not want the same thing happening to you or your friends either.

Quick Comments

	Snx.FigJig:
	mGGDaedalus:
	zenabi:
	mGGNemesis:
	Dox:	oh hey look, more stupid neg rep drama
	SmirkToT:	Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should b
	Zealo:	♥
	syfChadMann:	cR are not involved.. many people negged that thread.
	CHoBo(kice):	tyty
	cRSenSei:	because 2 of us from cR had the same opinion about the thread he made means we are hatin' on him because he didn't join?

**TAEdgE** · Tue, 5th-Jun-2012, 2:11 PM

I don't understand the cR thing... I dug up chat and all i saw was Sang saying 'Chad has suspected him for a while' and then Sang saying we shouldn't jump to conclusions...

I wouldn't mind if he actually answered the accusations, which are from Mafia, Rossi, Targa etc. but no one from Carnage told those guys to do this, so I don't see why Carnage has to be bought into this.

CHoBo(kice) · Tue, 5th-Jun-2012, 2:13 PM

When I get home tonight I will post my side. Too hard on mobile....

Quick Comments

	FaDeBadger:	Good idea!
	NvJazBas:	Thanks :)
	TABiggun:	Good idea

CHoBo(kice) · Tue, 5th-Jun-2012, 2:27 PM

By the way I get good information by watching streams. I watched yangs in particular on Thursday, Friday I think it was... I know what to expect, weaknesses. I do catch mafia and other streams when I can also to get information that I can use...

TABiggun · Tue, 5th-Jun-2012, 2:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

gonna step right in and say this

hacking is a very very serious accusation. it can absolutely destroy a players reputation and career, even if unproven, the stigma will stick around for a while. hence as tgun said there needs to more caution especially since chobo just won the masters cup, this is huge. if he is found to be hacking, of course he will be punished, have his wins and titles stripped and be banned from all tournaments etc. and that is a very big IF.

be neutral in the replay analysis - from what i've seen iaguz's was the only neutral one in the sense that it made a big effort to mention all the non-suspicious stuff as well. this is how analysis should be done, objective, neutral and giving the viewer full information and not skewing it to look like just one suspicious thing after the other.

everyone else's analysis was just mentioning the suspicious stuff and ignoring the moments that weren't like chobo's army walking straight into the baneling land mines, flying over pylons, not being prepared for the 6 lings, etc

the cr thing - the point chobo is trying to make is there is a lot of resentment now from certain people against him, which was apparent in his gaming set up thread. can you honestly say if he was in the team as cRchobo, would sensei and fourby have neg repped him for that thread? ask yourself that question. he would just be told civilly it was in the wrong thread. and this is related to this thread too because those same people do not like him and are judging him already like he is guilty.

how you can help -

both sides please stop all these personal arguments right now. focus on the games

get anyone who has played against chobo to upload their replays against him. the replays you want are ladder / tournament games which he expects nobody to watch. start with the SEASL games there are bunch in the replay db I believe from the qualifiers and finals, so the replays are sitting there waiting to be analysed. if hes hacking sooner or later very strong incriminating evidence will surface, like what happened in the fadeevets thread. and if you do find very strong evidence that he does not hack too in those games, be fair and post about it.

the worse thing is for an innocent person to be accused of hacking or a crime he did not commit, so take caution, gather more evidence and reserve judgment till the undeniable evidence presents itself. you would not want the same thing happening to you or your friends either.

In my analysis, I was going over the suspicious events. There are many more suspicious events that I could have mentioned, but the non suspicious events are also not mentioned because it is assumed that at other times play is normal.

However, someone who wants to use hacks and get away with it would not blatantly hack. Of course there will be times when play looks 'normal', but usually its not worth mentioning because the hacker could pretend to make mistakes to make themselves not look obvious.

I explained in one of my posts that the baneling incident looked strange, because he walked over them, then made future decisions based on 'knowing' that they were detonated when in fact there would have been little way he could know they detonated without him staring at his army which he wasn't. Also the random scan right on the banelings.

The truth is, I could go through all the replays and find countless explanations and events that look suspicious. But I have outlined two main suspicious events in my previous post, and if these could be explained then it would clear up a lot of things.

However, saying things like "i don't really care if you call me a hacker" "its not worth responding" "i'm at peace with myself so it doesn't matter"

These kind of replies bother me. Because after saying them he then goes on to talk about random chat incidents and ignoring the analysis many of us spent a lot time writing. I myself watched through almost all the replays that were uploaded to sc2sea and I can assure you that I have replayed certain situations many many times. I have taken note of both the overall information, and also the scouting information / vision from chobos perspective.

I am not just pointing fingers and yelling "hacker!" I gave my analysis not in an aggressive way, but in a way that shows I am confused with certain aspects of the games. I would like to see Chobo calmly give us his side of the story, and while it is true he can't respond to all the accusations, the two situations i outlined in my previous post I feel would give everyone a good idea of his innocence or guilt.

Rage · Tue, 5th-Jun-2012, 2:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AsGCHoBo

By the way I get good information by watching streams. I watched yangs in particular on Thursday, Friday I think it was... I know what to expect, weaknesses. I do catch mafia and other streams when I can also to get information that I can use...

look, I don't want to dogpile on you, but do bear in mind that

"I can't say anything to convince you if you already think I'm a hacker so I won't bother"
and
"I watch streams a lot and metagame people"

are the two most common things that confirmed hackers have said before they admitted what they were doing. you can read the early pages of this thread to see examples of this.

I'm taking no judgemental part in this as I am unable to watch replays until tonight, but I just want to point out how such comments look to an outsider.

NvRossi · Tue, 5th-Jun-2012, 2:34 PM

Today 1:21 PM: Peleus: http://drop.sc/191657 - That's a replay of me vs Chobo 15 mins before Masters Cup. Kinda embarrising because I got shut down so hard with a failed all in and it makes me look pretty bad

Asgchobos viking path at 13:30+ another supreme example of his incredible accuracy at pinpointing overlords.... also completely different pathing used in both games vs mafia and enderr in the masters cup whilst in each game being unusually accurate... That is extremely conclusive for myself.

Also completely neglects watch towers yet again. Extremely confident with his unit positioning, well prepared for attacks... suspect unit movements throughout.

Im convinced.

own up to it.

iM MaFia · Tue, 5th-Jun-2012, 2:35 PM

be neutral in the replay analysis - from what i've seen iaguz's was the only neutral one in the sense that it made a big effort to mention all the non-suspicious stuff as well. this is how analysis should be done, objective, neutral and giving the viewer full information and not skewing it to look like just one suspicious thing after the other.

Oh we can totally be neutral, the thing is - If you're a hacker you would ALWAYS purposely try your best to vary it out so the games can look as normal as possible. You want a mixture of doing stupid shit like losing some medivacs dying or some marines walking over banes but never game ending stuff, so you can't have ppl think your hacking. You can't win every single game you play, sometimes the guy 6 pools you and you purposely maka rax so you lose and ppl would think, OH HELL he cant be map hacking.
WHY would he maka rax against a 6 pool if he was? The fact is you want to put on a show so it cant possibly look like your hacking.

My analysis is of all the points where its obvious hes hacking and to simply put it theres just way too many of it in countless replays. I will do more replay anaylsis if thats what ppl want

Quick Comments

	Zepph:
	nirvAnA:	yes mafia do them :)
	Dox:	you're a beautiful butterfly

Strafe · Tue, 5th-Jun-2012, 2:44 PM

Chobo has been around on the ladder for a while now. He's been in the top of the ladder for quite a few seasons, so there are a lot of replays of him out there. If he really hacks then it shouldn't be too hard to figure out if everyone sends their replays. Although it's obviously possible that if he hacks, he doesn't always do it. Meaning he'd only do it in tournaments.

I find that a lot of the proof given in the analysis of the games sounds vague and isnt conclusive. It's enough to make him suspected for sure, but I don't think we can go ahead and put him on the guillotine quite yet.

I am now able to take games of everyone on SEA and I'm quite happy with that. I think my TvT is by far one of my best match ups and I feel quite comfortable with it. I've played Chobo like 15-20 times on the ladder and I've beaten him twice. One day we played a series of 6-7 games and he just always did the correct opening vs me even though I switched it up heavily. My first instinct back then was actually that he definitely maphacks, but when I gave it a bit more thought I just chalked it up to him being really good and playing mind games with me. However, considering he is insanely good online I also do find it really surprising he isn't winning any of those LANS in Australia. You simply do not put so much effort into playing a game this well and then not want to show it. That doesn't make sense to me.

I really hope though that more replays will be analyzed before any conclusions are drawn and everyone should treat him with respect until absolutely proven guilty. It really sucks to treat someone as scum while in fact they are innocent. So yes Mafia I for one would appreciate some more analysis of games, even if it's annoying to do.

Quick Comments

	SanG:	HI STRAFE
	NvRossi:	great post! can you upload any suspect reps?
	Bash:
	nirvAnA:	exactly what is needed :) now upload them reps i know you keep all of them!
	Dox:	have some rep you faux thai fellow
	Pox:
	CHoBo(kice):	Mass marine SIR, was some fun battles :D

**nirvAnA** · Tue, 5th-Jun-2012, 2:58 PM

I just want to point out the replays mentioned by chobo earlier. he plays nestea, colganzi, ogsforgg, lzgamer etc. and these would be worth an analysis. these were his recent NA ladder games

http://drop.sc/replays?utf8=%E2%9C%9...=Apply+filters

also worth mentioning is his uploading of replays. after his masters cup win i told him to upload all his reps and he did so instantly without hesitation. IF he is a hacker, he is certainly very confident of the way he conceals it to upload his games so freely.

as strafe and others come forward with more replays, feel free to compile all the replays in one post to make it easy for people to download and analyze.

Quick Comments

SanG:

he hasn't uploaded all of his replays yet, and if he refused to upload them, that'd just look too blatant. That did make me feel that he's weeding out suspicious replays.. idk, maybe he forgot them?

iM MaFia · Tue, 5th-Jun-2012, 3:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

I just want to point out the replays mentioned by chobo earlier. he plays nestea, colganzi, ogsforgg, lzgamer etc. and these would be worth an analysis. these were his recent NA ladder games

http://drop.sc/replays?utf8=%E2%9C%9...=Apply+filters

also worth mentioning is his uploading of replays. after his masters cup win i told him to upload all his reps and he did so instantly without hesitation. IF he is a hacker, he is certainly very confident of the way he conceals it to upload his games so freely.

as strafe and others come forward with more replays, feel free to compile all the replays in one post to make it easy for people to download and analyze.

yeah but wouldn't it be awkward if he didn't upload his replays? LOL

and also he only uploaded 2 games vs enderr, didnt he 2-1 enderr? one game is missing

NvRossi · Tue, 5th-Jun-2012, 3:11 PM

Admin Note: The original sc2gears log by Rossi was wrong as it was under blizzard time and not aligned properly to the replay.

The correct log posted by UHF is in this post and indicates no actions were made at all in that time frame http://www.sc2sea.com/showpost.php?p...&postcount=571

Concrete Evidence thanks to BIGGUN for noticing it

Today 1:21 PM: Peleus: http://drop.sc/191657 - That's a replay of me vs Chobo 15 mins before Masters Cup. Kinda embarrising because I got shut down so hard with a failed all in and it makes me look pretty bad
(Extra analysis regarding this game)

please proceed to 9:20 to 9:40 on chobos point of view

he has 4 martines selected and does not move his vision at all.
Video evidence
http://www.twitch.tv/ta_rossi/b/320413207

now after opening up sc2gears there is some very interesting results.

+ Show +

sc2gears when configured to blizzard time nullifies this information. However the screenlock is still evident.

Quick Comments

	Champi:	thats the biggest screen lock ive ever seen. Chobo is a hacker
	EveSigns:	rofl loving the passion that is going into this
	iM MaFia:	ROFL
	Chappo:	Seems pretty concrete
	VoxMSI.Rogue:	chobo is chobo but rossi is bossi
	Baldie:	For the love of god put that in a spoiler hahaha!
	Peleus:	Wow....

CHoBo(kice) · Tue, 5th-Jun-2012, 3:14 PM

Lol look I don't wanna dog pile but I will. Looks like I'm gonna have a long night replying to 5 pages worth

TABiggun · Tue, 5th-Jun-2012, 3:18 PM

As you can see from Rossi's post above, I noticed that if you watch the replay of Chobo vs Peleus from Chobo's perspective, from 9:20 to 9:40 he has 4 marines selected and his view is still for this whole time. But in sc2 gears there are many actions being performed.

One of them is "Select Engineering Bay". How is this possible when Chobo doesn't have an engineering bay?

Edit: What I believe this is, is a screen lock. His screen on the replay is frozen on him selecting 4 marines and looking over his production. He is going around and clicking Peleus' buildings and these come up as his own actions.

Edit 2: I don't think I explained this very well but this is what i believe is happening.

Chobo uses from kind of hack to freeze his screen, so in the replay it shows him looking over his production with 4 marines selected. But his real view is looking at the buildings in Chobo's base. I think Chobo clicked on Peleus' buildings, and when he does this, it comes up as an action for him.

Let me give an example. I believe that chobo clicked on Peleus' evo chambers. On sc2gears there is a command:
9:24 AsGCHoBo Select Engineering Bay (90384), Deselect all
9:24 AsGCHoBo Upgrade Terran Infantry Armor 1

Chobo doesn't even have an engineering bay building at all. So when he clicks on Peleus' evo chambers, it shows the command that he selected "engineering bays".

I'm not sure if this helps to explains things at all but this is my theory.

Quick Comments

x5.Revenant:

Good point

**inFeZa** · Tue, 5th-Jun-2012, 3:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NvRossi

Concrete Evidence

+ [whole load of stuff in here] +

SC2Gears could be used like this to really get in deep for the actions that the player/program makes to really pick the replay apart piece by piece.
TAHardyBoyRossi & Biggun Right here.