[FSBenAD]

Lots of wisdom so far, I agree with most of the things said overall.

This tier is a success as long as it gives people of the low leagues somewhere to grow and get promoted, its not about winning the tier.

I just hope the rest of the Slugs start rising up, I work with and am good friends with most of them, so I wouldnt want to not be able to play with them.

[syfChadMann]

While I agree - I think for this season at least, the solution needs to be something that permits the players at the start of the season being able to play to the end of the season, in Tier 5. That is the spirit of the competition.

Originally Posted by Volition

Looking at earlier posts, i must admit i looked at the TA team after promotions and said "holy hell, that is really strong, how can anyone compete with that?"

While this is true, it actually makes the TA team worse. TA already had a few Plats so they could field 2 per week, but with the recent promotions the middle of the team is now Plat and TA doesn't have as much depth in their weekly 5 players because of it.

While I may be biased - TA is a team that will be punished for promoting - which is not in the spirit of the tournament as envisaged by Frogmite, Maynarde and nirvAnA when he developed it. I see the TA team taking 2 matches and then being very easy to snipe out the other three matches (as TA will have a line up of 3 Bronze/Silver players and 2 plats each week.. making it easy for any other team to play 2 plats and 3 golds and likely defeat TA.

Now I don't want to be seen as someone that is making rules to benefit my own team. However, regardless of the decision, TA are the 1st Ranked team through practice, commitment and improvement. They are likely to lose this position because of the improvement in the team. They are also the team that had the most promotion to higher leagues (particularly to Plat and Diamond) So they are the team that is effected by this decision the most.

This is why I really need your contributions - at this stage, I don't think anything will happen that will force players into higher tiers or deny them the ability to play. They've all signed up and deserve to be able to see the season out. (Notably, I don't think there will be much of a BSG team for TA next season! :S

I'll also put this issue to the rest of the SEAL Admins for discussion - again, because I do not want to be seen as making a biased decision.

Thanks

Quick Comments

Maynarde:

Thanks for the edit fog

[Maynarde]

Originally Posted by tachadmann

...which is not in the spirit of the tournament as envisaged by frogmite when he developed it.

C'mon man T_T ........

[TAEdarus]

Originally Posted by Maynarde

C'mon man T_T ........

wut? 10char

[breadfan]

Chad, I think that's a very excellent point and if teams are in that situation the number of plats allowed should be extended, but it's hard to tell what the exact state of the tier is in with the OP not updated with promotions.

[Maynarde]

Originally Posted by TAEdarus

wut? 10char

Frogmite ... AND Maynarde + nirvAnA

Quick Comments

syfChadMann:

Happy now kunce.

[Volition]

Originally Posted by TAChadMann

While I agree - I think for this season at least, the solution needs to be something that permits the players at the start of the season being able to play to the end of the season, in Tier 5. That is the spirit of the competition.

While this is true, it actually makes the TA team worse. TA already had a few Plats so they could field 2 per week, but with the recent promotions the middle of the team is now Plat and TA doesn't have as much depth in their weekly 5 players because of it.

While I may be biased - TA is a team that will be punished for promoting - which is not in the spirit of the tournament as envisaged by Frogmite when he developed it. I see the TA team taking 2 matches and then being very easy to snipe out the other three matches (as TA will have a line up of 3 Bronze/Silver players and 2 plats each week.. making it easy for any other team to play 2 plats and 3 golds and likely defeat TA.

Now I don't want to be seen as someone that is making rules to benefit my own team. However, regardless of the decision, TA are the 1st Ranked team through practice, commitment and improvement. They are likely to lose this position because of the improvement in the team. They are also the team that had the most promotion to higher leagues (particularly to Plat and Diamond) So they are the team that is effected by this decision the most.

Completely agree with the reasoning in this post - the promotion really does hurt teams. However, if their team was too top heavy to begin with, the problems are really only their own fault. the 2 plats rule was supported by pretty much everyone to promote a close competition between the top and bottom teams, and it has been with a lot of 4-2 victories and ties that have occurred.

I know we are feeling it in Zerocraft - we started with 0 plats, recruited 1 to help with Ace responsibilities, and now suddenly have 4 or 5, only 2 of which can play each week. Suddenly half our roster is gone. However, this is a risk that all teams should have considered when picking their team - to change the rules to allow more of the higher players to play is only going to disadvantage teams that are up and comers, such as the ballers like HoH and the Slugs. Zerocraft should have been a little more forward thinking and ensured that our Bronzes were actually active, and maybe allowed for a little more depth in the lineup (of with 6/15 is currently inactive).

As far as i am aware, most teams are still able to recruit players, and some decent bronzes and silvers will help each team by providing depth for the first 3 games.

As for the argument "the players that started the season should finish it", i also agree. i dont want to see players excluded from tier 5, but there is no reason the plat guys cant take it in turns to do the player 4 and ace games. Is it ideal? probably not. But it seems the fairest to me (note: this is my opinion only, not that of Zeroraft)

We have Rezyn's opinion, i would really like to hear what the guys from say TCP, VB and HoH think on the issue of whether changes are needed to the 2 plats a week rule.

[breadfan]

Originally Posted by Volition

Zerocraft should have been a little more forward thinking and ensured that our Bronzes were actually active, and maybe allowed for a little more depth in the lineup (of with 6/15 is currently inactive).

As far as i am aware, most teams are still able to recruit players, and some decent bronzes and silvers will help each team by providing depth for the first 3 games.

To be fair, this isn't always an option. Some teams only just managed to scrape together the needed number of players for their lineup, and some struggle to have people show up week in, week out to be able to make the required 2 roster changes per week.

Open recruiting right through a season is a really good option though that solves some of these problems.

I feel like the argument that players who started the season should finish it for their team is a great one, but that it is 2 sided - by the same token then the same rules should apply right through the season. Individual efforts should be rewarded - and they are, with a higher win rate. We could take both and carry on, but changing up one is no fairer than changing up the other.

I don't necessarily think that a team getting more promotions necessarily means they deserve more wins - say 4 guys get promoted for Team A, while the remaining 6 stagnate (or don't play and actually get worse. Team B only has 1 guy get promoted, and all the other players on their roster improve a great deal - just not enough to be promoted. Overall, the actual effort put in may be similar. I think this one particular piece of logic is best left out of consideration.

[syfChadMann]

Originally Posted by Volition

However, if their team was too top heavy to begin with, the problems are really only their own fault.

Originally Posted by Volition

teams should have considered when picking their team

The TA line up at the start of the Season - and shown in the OP is a wide mix across the leagues. The issue with TA is most of the middle of the teams depth has moved up - so has become a 'top heavy' team.. with out the ability to recruit new members, due to the Clans internal recruitment process (only open to Masters+) So half of TA's team cannot play each week because half are plat+.. and the lower end of the team has to compete with other teams low and mid league players. This is the issue for teams like TA.. and to some extent ZeroCraft.

[ZC.EvilSWAT]

I realize I've only played 1 week so far in this CL (sorry volition, but now you can feel Chadmann's pain with my scheduling when he was leading Clanless ) but I feel that the spirit of SEACL T5 is basically BSG with a hint of Plats in it.

I humbly ask the mods not to change any rules for this tier. This tier was meant for new players to get a taste of competitive action rarely tasted by lower leaguers, thus we should keep it that way. If we allow the rules to be tweaked to allow more higher leaguers to play, that will be a handicap to teams with bottom-heavy lineups. I sure as hell don't want to play StarCraft anymore when I have to face opponents 2 leagues higher than me every week.

As the rules stand, the top-heavy teams will get promoted into Tier 4, thus freeing them the problem of having too many Plats or Diamonds in the team. Teams with more Bronze/Silvers then will not have to face Plats/Diamonds anymore, making it easier for them to win more games, which results in higher morale and incentive to train even more.

Quick Comments

x5_dot:

[FSBenAD]

Fair points Chad, but it again depends on why Tier 5 exists. If its to find the best team and get them promoted, then rules which allow more of the best players to play should be brought in.

If its instead to get those people in the lower leagues (B,S,G) incentive and a place to grow, then we should keep it as is.

The other general question I have is for those teams which have a team per tier, does them being promoted at the end of the season even make sense to you guys from a personal clan point of view?

Not being critical at all, I'm genuinely curious. If i had multiple teams in each tier, having one of my teams promote and thus not having a representative at BSG or a certain level, would be a real pain in the ass, as those players probably won't have a team to play in (or be forced to play in the next division higher).

I'd imagine you would just promote/demote your players between tiers anyway between your teams in each div?

[rezyn8]

Like I said before - keep T5 as is. Its been a good league thus far.

Forward Thinking for SEACL#3

I think a good option for SEACL#3 would be to have open teams in each division rather than saying T1 is for GM only or T5 is for B only. Each team submission should be means tested based on the roster submitted. These rosters can have any number of players from different leagues. If a clan wants to submit a team full of Silver players so be it, they get means tested and are assigned to a league. Likewise if a clan submits a full GM team.

What should be highlighted here is to remove the advertisement that X league is FOR BSG or GM only.

You can then have a proper promotion/relegation* system between the SEACL divisions at the end of the season where the stronger teams will get promoted up. It also won't penalise players for ranking up whilst playing in the league.

This would alleviate this problem of mid-league ladder promotions of individual players we are now seeing n T5.

* Promotion/Relegation is a tricky thing in online eSports as it wholly depends on that team staying together. Some people may leave, some new players will join and thus may require some means test as these teams cannot be considered as the same as football teams in England moving between the EPL and Championship divisions.

Quick Comments

breadfan:

haha agree 100% as per my post below that we shouldn't think in terms of the BSG league anymore

[breadfan]

The thing about just allowing player promotions/demotions to different teams of the same clan all the time means that essentially, every season is a 'fresh' season. The teams have no resemblance to the season before. Have an awesome rivalry like QED and TA? If those players end up dispersing between 3 different teams, the rivalry loses all meaning. This makes me sad.

Personally, the way I think the league *should be* (in an ideal world)...

I think the relegation/promotion system means that where possible, once a team is accepted, that should be the team. The team works together and trains together. All rules for each week should be permanently the same (but maybe revisit the 2 plats per week rule in Season 3).

Instead of 3 teams being promoted/relegated between each div each season, I think it should be more - at least in the lower leagues (the 1 makes sense at the top level, by rights it should be harder to get in to the top flight)

We should forget about T5 as the BSG league. It should be the bottom div (at least until another is added, which might be necessary if numbers swell). New teams should have a certain composition (i.e. must have X number of BSG players) but once in the league, even if everyone gets into GM in 3 weeks, they should play out the season in T5. Then rise through the ranks that way.

In this case, say TA don't get promoted this season - in season 3, all current plats and diamond players should be allowed to participate in Tier 5. If they move up into a higher division, it should be up to each espective clan and the players themselves to arrange.

This I feel makes it more of an ongoing league-style, and I would expect this is in line with the 'spirit' of the league that the admins invision. Growth can happen and if T5 becomes a plat/dia division, there'll always be other BSG players ready to step in (they make up 60% of the player base after all) to form a 6th tier.

[syfChadMann]

Originally Posted by BenAD

The other general question I have is for those teams which have a team per tier, does them being promoted at the end of the season even make sense to you guys from a personal clan point of view?

Teams that win Tier 4 and tier 5 do not automatically move up to tier 3 and 4 (respectively). Tiers 3-5 are based on the league of the players.. and teams will be reclassified at the start of a new season based on the line up submitted... essentially, the way for a team to move up from tier 5 to tier 1.. is to promote thru the leagues and be classified into tier 2 and then win a promotion into tier 1 (I believe - these rules are still being developed in time for the end of the season and transition into the next season.

So TA wining tier 5 is only about pride. next season it is possible that TA will field 2 tier 4 teams and no tier 5.. or a whole new look tier 5 team..

A new idea I've had for this Plat Diamond problem;
Teams nominate if they are a 2plat or 3plat team... and when they meet a team of the same 'Plat count' they play that many plats. If its 2plat v 3plat - the 2plat team can nominate if they want the challenge of the three plats - giving them a chance to practice against higher league players. Otherwise they can nominate to have the match as 3 plats.

If A team then gets more Plat promotions they can reclassify themselves as a 3 plat team.

As for the Diamond situation - teams can use 2 Plat+ if they have a diamond player that is a balance of their earned strength that they are able to utilise. In situations of 3plats.. I'm not sure if it is just 3 plat/diamond, 3plats OR 1plat 1 diamond, 3plat+ (anything between 3 plats and 3 diamonds), or even 3plats (2-plat 1-diamond max.) idk.. But I do like teams being able to nominate their usage.

In a practical example - VB Nominates 2 plats, TA nominates 3, ZeroCraft nominates 3.
TA v ZeroCraft - both teams able to use 3 plats.
VB v ZeroCraft - VB Nominate to only allow the use of 2 plat+
VB v TA - VB, after dispatching ZeroCraft 6-0 the week before, feel they are up to the challenge of TA's top line up - they nominate to allow 3 plats from TA that week. (but still lose 5-1 )

Basically, Managers that nominate to be a 2 plat team need to be actively confirming if they want 2 or 3 plats for the week - punishment for not informing the admins may result in it randomly being decided for you.

Thoughts?

Quick Comments

ZC.EvilSWAT:

+Rep but dispatching ZC 6-0? I'll let you know that we're unbeaten as yet, good sir!

[TAEdarus]

Originally Posted by EvilSWAT

As the rules stand, the top-heavy teams will get promoted into Tier 4, thus freeing them the problem of having too many Plats or Diamonds in the team.

Speaking strictly selfishly here, TA already has the maximum 4 teams across the entire SEACL and as per the rules of the system the winning team in a tier gets promoted up to the next tier next season.

If for example the rules don't change, TA can't field a strong team to actually secure a win (knowing the team i'll guarantee thats the case lol) meaning this team will remain tier 5.

Next season the team will consist of 5 members as the plat/diamonds obviously wont be put into this tier again.

Dunno if this means anything, more an observation. Not saying because of us the rules should change either coz thats not the case.

I respect both sides of the coin and defer to the admin's better judgement for the betterment of the league, whichever direction it may go.

[breadfan]

I'm quite disappointed that teams don't carry over into future seasons in this league

But I like the idea of the changes. Preserves the current system for "lower" teams and let's the top tier matchups field their best teams.

I like the idea of plat+ (so a "3 plat" team can field diamond players in platinum slots if they wish)

Personally, I feel that if the promotion/demotion situation happened right through, then we could phase out the 2 plat per week rule - next season we could just say each lineup must field 1 gold or below player, andthe following season, no restriction. The rule was only needed to ensure teams got off to an even start to the season (unfortunately the draw means that now TA with its pretty beasty has already played similar beasty lineups and now plays a lot of lower leaguers)

[FSBenAD]

Tbh overall the biggest thing I would personally like to see is everyone getting a chance to play fairly regularly and against people near/abouts their skill level.

I know Tier 4 has a massive 16 teams already and some of those lists are quite massive!

So maybe our actual issue is that Tier 4 is a bit crowded, which forces a lot of the plats down to the bottom tier instead?

I agree that once the teams are signed up at the start of the season it would be better if all players could play and that promotion during the season didn't make the illegible.

So maybe next season we could split tier 4 into two tiers, encourage plats and higher to enter into the tier 4a/b leagues and then have no rules on players league limits once they are in the bottom tier as we shouldnt need them and it wont punish teams/players who promote mid season?

Quick Comments

breadfan:

Try the weekly BSG or the GPD!

[FSBenAD]

Originally Posted by TAEdarus

Speaking strictly selfishly here, TA already has the maximum 4 teams across the entire SEACL and as per the rules of the system the winning team in a tier gets promoted up to the next tier next season..

That does make it hard for big clans, IMO the restriction on teams should be atleast equal to the number of tiers.

I guess I am really for more people playing games and improving

(And Id volunteer to help admin too, if need be, if it helps getting more and more people playing)

[TAEdarus]

Regarding breadfan's post above...

Given that, at the time of signup all teams were in compliance with the league rules and restrictions I'm now of the opinion there shouldn't really be penalties at all for people getting promoted.

I think the issue is this league was BSGP instead of BSG.

For example, if it were BSG and there were no plats... during the season the same people (who were compliant at the start) keep playing regardless of promotions until the end of the season.
The winner is the team / people who worked the hardest at improving (and naturally their league shall reflect this).

Isn't this league here to promote practice and improvement? We shouldn't therefore be penalising teams for doing exactly that.

After the season anyone non-compliant with BSG would not be allowed to join in this tier the next season but rather a higher one, leaving BSG as BSG (until people smash out the promotions, ultimately serving the purpose of the league).

To that end, if all teams were compliant at the start we should IMO be allowed to play the season out till the end - the only question being, should restrictions on higher leagued players be altered to reflect the large skill increases across all teams?

[DeNile]

okay heres the promotions and names minus the battle codes for you oh great admins.

QEDReaper ------>
QEDiajlus ----->
QEDDeNile ----->
QEDFridge
QEDUpWaiting
QEDReverseCure
QEDYin

If there is anyone i have missed its cause there inactive and battlecodes will come. Also as chad has stated earlier the only tier that is getting promoted by the act of placement is tier 2 to tier1 and vice versa. All other tiers reset as you re submit line-ups for next season so its up to team captains if they want to keep the entire team together or not. and QED feels the lain of plats as it stands we only have three active players not Plat meaning walkovers are likely to be given as i for one am not available every week. Although i feel i am forgetting someone lol.