[ToRVenom]

We all know that in high school they have sports like football rugby golf chess and all that.
Why not E-sports!
Today i emailed AIC (Sports for colleges in Brisbane) With the question about E-sports within the colleges.
I want to know what everyone's oppion is on Starcraft As a sport within the schools.

Starcraft has been called the chess of this generation. Numerous articles support this.
So i want to get some support with this. so I can Starcraft as a sport within our school.

Thanks guys,

[breadfan]

Originally Posted by HoHVenom

We all know that in high school they have sports like football rugby golf chess and all that.
Why not E-sports!
Today i emailed AIC (Sports for colleges in Brisbane) With the question about E-sports within the colleges.
I want to know what everyone's oppion is on Starcraft As a sport within the schools.

Starcraft has been called the chess of this generation. Numerous articles support this.
So i want to get some support with this. so I can Starcraft as a sport within our school.

Thanks guys,

It would be cool.

You'd get some 15 year old GM turn up and obliterate everyone though. Skill might be a bit too diverse

Also, it's not really team oriented. A big thing about school sports is that it's about competing at a team level - my school endorsed individual sports by letting really pro kids train during school time (like one of our olympic gold medal divers we seemed to have a ton of, despite not having a pool), but it wasn't really a 'school sport'. And they were *really* good. We didn't have a chess team though

But yeah wherever there's a chess team, no reason not to have an SC2 team

Quick Comments

PiG:

lots of school sports have massive skill gaps, was always a bit silly but fun :)

[TAminimat]

Lmao sorry but that sounds like a stupid as **** idea.

Quick Comments

	UncleTom:	You lack faith
	Celldweller:	explain if you are going to put someone down

[ToRVenom]

Originally Posted by TAminimat

Lmao sorry but that sounds like a stupid as **** idea.

Why? I dont understand why you think that?

Quick Comments

	AsylumofSouls:	With a comment like that, who cares why he thinks it?
	FvRsolis:

[ToRVenom]

of course. It would be done with team For example.
my previous school did chess. Not a team sport but it was separated on skill. Example of that.
There was a senior A (Opens), Senior B, Juniors A, Juniors B.
It was done by matches. It can be done like the Clan league is done with SEASC2 . Each clan is a college. And every Tier is skill level of the players.

I believe that wouldn't be an issue. The only issue i can see would be costings. Even if colleges have only a few computer with the game installed. and the compatibility to run the game.

i am just after other opinion on this and see if they think it will work.

[simon]

i believe schools through out Australia have already tried this. dota and cs 1.6 have been used


at my old school a guy who used to be involved with WCG a long time ago got a teaching gig there and started an inter school dota comp.

[TAminimat]

But you go to school to learn the core skills Maths English etc not a computer game.

Quick Comments

	fray`Alpha:	i spent more time at school focusing on rowing then maths and english combined
	FvRsolis:	I spent more time dodging interschool sport than learning core skills.

[ToRVenom]

Originally Posted by TAminimat

But you go to school to learn the core skills Maths English etc not a computer game.

Why have sport? If its for that why not have Esports. i dont mean as a subject i mean as a extra curriculum sport.

Quick Comments

simon:

beat me to it

[xGKingdelete]

Originally Posted by TAminimat

But you go to school to learn the core skills Maths English etc not a computer game.

it's not teaching starcraft in class, it's having interschool starcraft competitions. This kind of thing already exists with pretty much every physical sport (we have sport every wednesday afternoon). And there's an interschool chess competition in term 2/3.


I think it's almost impossible for this to start happening with starcraft, since the skill levels of students are going to be anything from bronze - grandmaster, and you only have to be about one league ahead of your opponent to completely dominate them. Chess isn't that volatile, probably because it's turn based strategy instead of real time.

and unfortunately, esports isn't really anything big in our culture.

Maybe something like this could happen one day, though. that would be so awesome.

[breadfan]

It's the sort of thing that I think needs eSports to really start being in the public eye to happen. Until then, one or two schools may be willing to adopt this sort of program, but they would be the kind that are a little unusual and different.

As it is, a lot of schools view computer games as the enemy to schoolwork :P

Quick Comments

Eldrid:

Great idea that may happen in 10-20 years, but +1 to this.

[simon]

this would clearly be an extra curricular activity outside of school hours just like every other after noon school sport, chess club or debate club minimat. it just means you wouldnt be able to be a closet gamer geek if you wished to participate

[TAminimat]

...Because you could just go home and do it with like, everyone who plays the game. With no LAN I wouldn't see the point of starting up a club or w/e.

[syfChadMann]

Nerds might be Jocks?.. wtf..

Seriously tho, I don't think it will happen because 'Sport' is about activity and being fit and healthy.. Don't think SC2 does much for your health... sure it can be argued that gaming gives you good hand eye co-ordination and other real life skills. But its not widely socially accepted as a way to improve yourself actively..

Therefore I doubt eSports will ever be related to 'Sporting' institutions.

Quick Comments

UncleTom:

Chess doesn't make you fit and healthy.

[ToRVenom]

Originally Posted by TAChadMann

Nerds might be Jocks?.. wtf..

Seriously tho, I don't think it will happen because 'Sport' is about activity and being fit and healthy.. Don't think SC2 does much for your health... sure it can be argued that gaming gives you good hand eye co-ordination and other real life skills. But its not widely socially accepted as a way to improve yourself actively..

Therefore I doubt eSports will ever be related to 'Sporting' institutions.

"Sport is all forms of physical activity which, through casual or organised participation, aim to use, maintain or improve physical fitness and provide entertainment to participants. Sport may be competitive, where a winner or winners can be identified by objective means, and may require a degree of skill, especially at higher levels. Hundreds of sports exist, including those for a single participant, through to those with hundreds of simultaneous participants, either in teams or competing as individuals. Some non-physical activities, such as board games and card games are sometimes referred to as sports,"

Why have Chess? if its not a sport?

Quick Comments

ToRDjvillian:

[Snx.Mufasa]

Originally Posted by HoHVenom

"Sport is all forms of physical activity which, through casual or organised participation, aim to use, maintain or improve physical fitness and provide entertainment to participants. Sport may be competitive, where a winner or winners can be identified by objective means, and may require a degree of skill, especially at higher levels. Hundreds of sports exist, including those for a single participant, through to those with hundreds of simultaneous participants, either in teams or competing as individuals. Some non-physical activities, such as board games and card games are sometimes referred to as sports,"

Why have Chess? if its not a sport?

You said it yourself... sport is a form of physical activity.

And starcraft is certainly not a physical activity.

Im sure its possible to start a club or something like that but I doubt any school with their current views on video games would support it the way you’re talking about.

[ToRVenom]

Originally Posted by iVnMufasa

You said it yourself... sport is a form of physical activity.

And starcraft is certainly not a physical activity.

Im sure its possible to start a club or something like that but I doubt any school with their current views on video games would support it the way you’re talking about.

Boardgame Such as chess are considered a sport tho?

[Snx.Mufasa]

Originally Posted by HoHVenom

Boardgame Such as chess are considered a sport tho?

*sigh* we're not talking about chess.

whenever someone tries arguing about 'esports = sports' with the... 'but chess it sport' argument.

i feel like chess is the older brother that that was told by mum that 'you get to be a sport'... where e-sports is the jealous younger brother that says 'but why can't i be a sport?'

if you want to compare than go for it, but at the end of the day a sport is a physical activity and playing starcraft is not that.

edit. sorry for taking it off topic, the argument about whether or not esports is a sport has probs already be done so ima let it go : )

[simon]

i think chadman brings up a much better point in that its not socially acceptable. minimat saying it isnt practical on the other hand really doesnt make much sense.

[ToRDjvillian]

A for the team based sports I dont know about you guys but my high school did golf, archery, high jump, long jump and other similar single person sports.

How would esports be beneficial in an educational environment? (Is there a thread on this already?)
How I see it to be beneficial could be to force the kids to vocally communicate in a team environment (team games duh), problem solving, computer skills (the older kids version of quicktype) and resource management dependant on games.

[AsylumofSouls]

Starcraft is unique among other eSports in that it develops problem solving, creative thinking and multi-tasking. It's very good for your brain in the same way that chess is and in my opinion would be an excellent school sport even if only for the mental development of competitors.

Quick Comments

FvRsolis:

[TCPMilkyMan]

Originally Posted by AsylumofSouls

Starcraft is unique among other eSports in that it develops problem solving, creative thinking and multi-tasking. It's very good for your brain in the same way that chess is and in my opinion would be an excellent school sport even if only for the mental development of competitors.

I definitely agree on this, I actually want to get a starcraft II extra-curricular going but I don't think anyone would be interested

Originally Posted by Bash

Its totally plausible, but it will always boil down to how much effort you're willing to put into getting a club to happen and how enthusiastic your group is.

i was in all sorts of "not socially-acceptable" clubs through high school (BHS Debating and Energy breakthrough reppin' yo)
Dont expect it to count towards your marks or anything, but if you enjoy it and you're willing to put the effort in then it can totally happen, just make sure that its run like a real school club and you have a clear goal and ways to get there. ^_^

I agree on this as well. I guess thats really the big problem that has to be tackled, the fact that it is in a way 'socially un-acceptable' and the amount of people joining because of this will be low. Plus its easy to start a physical sports team because the school will just have to buy a few things such as a ball or a bat. But with SC2 we have to buy licences for the games and that can be costly :P. I doubt the school, or the students would be willing enough to commit to something like this .

Although I am thinking really hard about it but im just not sure the worlds ready yet

[SleekDaElite]

It would be so cool to see this but it would probably be better suited to Universities and older students

Quick Comments

breadfan:

like UQSS

[ToRDarKnoob]

screw that i want esports in my hs

[Paroxysm]

It has been proven though, that Starcraft helps to increase the brainpower/intellect of players just by the sheer thinking that has to go into all of the decisions that have to be made as you play. Of course, it is unlikely that it will be implemented into a school as society views gaming in an unrelentingly harsh manner. If you pushed the point with numerous supporting documents, however, I'm sure that it could eventually be trialled.

Good luck!

Quick Comments

AsylumofSouls:

+1 for expanding on what I said and offering advice that I forgot to include :)

[FaDeKerrigan]

Originally Posted by Paroxysm

It has been proven though, that Starcraft helps to increase the brainpower/intellect of players just by the sheer thinking that has to go into all of the decisions that have to be made as you play. Of course, it is unlikely that it will be implemented into a school as society views gaming in an unrelentingly harsh manner. If you pushed the point with numerous supporting documents, however, I'm sure that it could eventually be trialled.

Good luck!

Hey Para, any chance you have the links for your claims on SC increasing brainpower/intellect? Would love to read up on it.

Quick Comments

Paroxysm:

I have no idea of the exact link, however I read it on TL in the general forums quite some time ago (like, early 2011 if i recall correctly)

[ToRVenom]

Well its something i am going to be going for In Brisbane

[x5_Potter]

People from my school sometimes to inter-school chess tournaments. Would be cool to have some Starcraft ones

[AsylumofSouls]

You may want to contact some university sc2 clubs and see if they have statistics on how their players perform better at uni compared to other clubs. There are a few in Aus.

[breadfan]

Originally Posted by AsylumofSouls

You may want to contact some university sc2 clubs and see if they have statistics on how their players perform better at uni compared to other clubs. There are a few in Aus.

Much as I support the cause, I would cringe if any school agreed to do something because a bunch of students said that something made them do better.

Parox, not sure that's been proven. If anything I'm sure it could be said that training your brain to make fast decisions in starcraft 2 makes you better at making decisions in starcraft 2. It's an exciting prospect that it may improve things like multitasking, but it's not been proven based on what I've seen so far

[AsylumofSouls]

Originally Posted by breadfan

Much as I support the cause, I would cringe if any school agreed to do something because a bunch of students said that something made them do better.

Parox, not sure that's been proven. If anything I'm sure it could be said that training your brain to make fast decisions in starcraft 2 makes you better at making decisions in starcraft 2. It's an exciting prospect that it may improve things like multitasking, but it's not been proven based on what I've seen so far

Statistics from university clubs may help support what Paroxysm said with more facts if you're having trouble finding published studies.
Statistical support is not people saying it made them better, it's evidence of the fact.

[breadfan]

Originally Posted by AsylumofSouls

Statistics from university clubs may help support what Paroxysm said with more facts if you're having trouble finding published studies.
Statistical support is not people saying it made them better, it's evidence of the fact.

But it's not acceptable evidence to use for this sort of thing. There could be any number of reasons why people who start playing SC2 at uni get better grades. It may be that there's a social element which makes them enjoy going to uni more, therefore they are attending class more, and attending more classes means better results. You'll get the same results for the knitting club if someone who really enjoyed knitting and talking about knitting joined. That doesn't mean SC2 causes you to have better grades, and anecdotal indication of correlation shouldn't be taken to mean causation.

[AsylumofSouls]

Originally Posted by breadfan

But it's not acceptable evidence to use for this sort of thing. There could be any number of reasons why people who start playing SC2 at uni get better grades. It may be that there's a social element which makes them enjoy going to uni more, therefore they are attending class more, and attending more classes means better results. You'll get the same results for the knitting club if someone who really enjoyed knitting and talking about knitting joined. That doesn't mean SC2 causes you to have better grades, and anecdotal indication of correlation shouldn't be taken to mean causation.

As a trained biotechnologist and forensic chemist, I understand anecdotal evidence is not acceptable in a scientific community. The people Venom is proposing this to are not the scientific community, they are going to be average Joes and any evidence he can get will be good evidence for this case.

Any ideas you have to help him out with how to propose this to schools would, I'm sure, be welcomed.

[ToRDarKnoob]

in 50 years when people are physically weak and people get smarter/ technology gets better scVI will be the game XP

[HuT]

I disagree.

gogo be active kiddies.

Quick Comments

TAminimat:

[Billy Stevens]

Im all for expanding the eSports-ness and everything.
Although knowing high school kids, most of them would attempt to participate just as an excuse for gaming.

As simon said above, this would have to be done outside of school hours, so that you have to actually put in hours and commit to it.
If it happens during school hours, your just asking for every student and their dog to come and procrastinate.

But anyway. say this is all well and good. So lets do a bit of brainstorming here.

What would a school provide by including eSports within its sporting curriculum?
Sports in schools as we know it currently provide playing fields/courts, equipment, general coaching and some form of inter-school league/tournament to participate in.

For eSports the playing field is online so no worries there.

Not entirely sure how many schools are willing to fork out the money for enough gaming rigs to support a "team" and I dont think many kids would find it convenient to bring their own rigs to school every week. Laptops are also an option but I wouldn't want to be using a laptop in a... "eSports training environment"

I'd have no idea on the actual facts for this, however I would be surprised if there are more than even a third of high schools in which they have a staff member who is into eSports and would be able to be a team coach. Perhaps in the future next generation of teachers there may be more as the eSports demographic becomes older. Or perhaps someone can volunteer to coach their local high schools eSports team/s?

As for inter-school leagues and tournaments, this website here is pretty much proof that this would be no problem in setting this up should there ever be a green light for eSports to commence in highschools.

just my 2cents


(ok that was a bit longer than i expected lol. sorry if i bore you guys :P)

[breadfan]

Biggest concern I think is..

What happens when Johnny 6 pools Chris and Chris beats him after school for being a cheesy ******?

Quick Comments

	Billy Stevens:	rofl
	ToRVenom:
	Gunter:
	simon:	HAHAHA
	Synizta:

[TABjornbrandr]

Originally Posted by breadfan

Biggest concern I think is..

What happens when Johnny 6 pools Chris and Chris beats him after school for being a cheesy ******?

Johnny mans the **** up and learns to play macro games.

Quick Comments

	x5_Potter:	Ahahahahha
	Snx.Mufasa:	quality ; )

[RicocheT]

Starcraft 2 club at Uni.
You saw it here first.

[ToRVenom]

Okay Every. now i want your opinion on How you would go about marketing Starcraft to someone to get them interested in taking the idea onboard.

[x5_Bard]

training your brain to make fast decisions in starcraft 2 makes you better at making decisions in starcraft 2.

is 100% correct. Its like the current debate on whether schools are actually teaching kids or simply teaching them how to pass tests.

In terms of an actual school subject its really quite absurd to make a computer game a subject. When I was at school I had athletics as a subject. It wasnt an actual subject, it was to do with the amount of time I actually spent training every night and lowering my workload to a manageable level. I would spend around 4-5 hours a day training (weights/practicing etc) along with attending interstate carnivals and trips to the AIS. After all this, my first year out of school I had a knee reconstruction, the end of my sporting 'career'. My question to anyone thinking this is do you really need to drop a subject to become a pro gamer? I dont think so.

The main reason there is no co curricular activity for sc2 in schools is because there is no one to sponsor it. There is no state carnival run by the government to see who the best sc2 players are for the national squad. There are no development teams, nothing. This is the reason you can play a wide variety of sports during school, because eventually if you have the genetics and the will you could represent the country/state/club in it. There is money in it, there are sponsors willing to pay for trips/equipment. Unfortunately in SC2 the majority of the best players have trouble paying for flights and accommodation. Let alone 10 kids who are probably around Gold level. This is probably one of the biggest limiting factors. Basically until more money is invested and more people are willing to host/run events etc a school co curricular activity on the same level as current sports will never happen. Also just remember that co curricular activities aren't a bunch of kids rocking up every week to kick a ball around, there is a whole support team that makes sure it can happen too.

In my mind make an SC2 club at your school, if you run it well and maybe get other schools to join in you basically have what you want. You might even be able to get it listed as a co curricular activity. Just dont expect the school to fund your trip to America to try and get into MLG.

Quick Comments

breadfan:

speaks to my experience at my school - they were right behind anything they could show off about when you won

[NDG.Stitch]

Well the thing about gaming is, that is has more negative than positive in terms of health and academics. It's bad for your eyes, and your health in general proven everywhere. Plus, it definitely affects academics more than a regular sport since there is a factor of stress and strategy all day long. I think putting SC2 into a curriculum will be very hard as it really isn't a way to set a grading system for it. It'll be hard, but goodluck!

[ToRVenom]

Originally Posted by StitchSPR

Well the thing about gaming is, that is has more negative than positive in terms of health and academics. It's bad for your eyes, and your health in general proven everywhere. Plus, it definitely affects academics more than a regular sport since there is a factor of stress and strategy all day long. I think putting SC2 into a curriculum will be very hard as it really isn't a way to set a grading system for it. It'll be hard, but goodluck!

Im not trying to get it set as a subject . I am trying to get it set in as an extra-curriculum activity . Like Chess is at schools. students have the choice to do it and compete with other school.

[Statix]

No i dont support the idea that starcraft has any analytical/ problem solving skills in anyway. without getting madly into it, as a teacher i dont want to bare the thought of the kind of kids who would apply for such a course. Most of the students in my classes just bash COD and their approach to games is like n "huh huh shoot guns, haha u ded duhhhhhhhhhhh" to get them to learn build orders and such hmmmm . . ."when do i get to kill things?", will be the next word out of their mouths.

[neKo]

Sorry this is dumb. In a time where a large percentage of Australian, and even American's teens/kids are becoming unhealthy and Obese, we don't need a computer game to become an extra curricular activity.

And besides, if Starcraft 2 can be a sport. Then why can't Cod4 be one as well? or Halo3.
^^^^ This is what 8/10 kids would say if Sc2 was introduced as a sport.

[Antel0pe]

I think it would be better off as a tuition thing. Like a face to face lesson in a public LAN place.

[EveLoire]

i myself would like to see this implemented in Singapore. However i know the chances of having something similar to this is..........

[LoRDo]

I'm pretty sure this actually was attempted in Brisbane.
People saying "no - go do physical stuff":
- It would have to be extra curriculum- meaning signing up would be voluntary, after school and not taking any opportunities away from physical activity

I used to play chess for school - didn't make a super freakazoid geeban (that happened in Uni).
I was amongst the "in crowd" in HS. If they had of offered dota/1.6/wc3 or something I definitely would have done it.

If you think that sc2 doesn't promote problem solving, multi-tasking and complex reasoning and to some degree coordination, then that is truly concerning!

You, OP, would have my vote sir! If there's anyway I can help (petition or whatever?) let us know. For I shall sign and I would encourage you all to!

Quick Comments

simon:

[Statix]

sorry havent read much of the posts but THERE is an SC2 course in a florida college. Some guy commented on it on a video.

Its not labelled as SC2 just analytical thinking in real world situations or something ill find link and edit

[Nemo]

Originally Posted by Statix

sorry havent read much of the posts but THERE is an SC2 course in a florida college. Some guy commented on it on a video.

Another proof poms are crazy ...

Originally Posted by Statix

Its not labelled as SC2 just analytical thinking in real world situations or something ill find link and edit

... And hypocrytes.

More seriously, I voted "no" because school has to give you general culture, formation for jobs with more demands on the market and learn you to make physical sport. Mens sana in corpore sano.

I strongly beleive though that some games in limited time are very good for developping intelligence and especially sharpness, strategic vision, multitask. Sarcraft is an excellent game and develop many qualities. That's why I tell my sons who only want to play City of Tempest to play half their "gaming time" on classic game instead to developp macro, multitask and strategy awarness.

But that's just not the role of school but the responsability of the famillies.

[crAzerk]

@statix yea I've watched like 2 webcast lectures of that course, was pretty interesting nevertheless, I think it's abit off-topic from what the OP is discussing.

IMO this will never happen - as soon as SC2 gets the green light, how about CS, COD, TF2, DoTA?

I find the OP topic abit narrow though. SC2 is quite a small market share in the gaming market, at least in Singapore (correct me if this is wrong for other countries)
It may be more helpful to discuss 'Would gaming be introduced as a CCA?'

Gaming will continue to have a stigma for a very very long time - while I obviously support gaming now as an undergrad, but I can imagine myself as a parent not wanting my kid to spend hours on gaming an neglect his studies, esp with the way the meritocratic education system works.

[Statix]

@CRAZERK yeah, i did my degree in software engineering and my opening sentence in my final project was "The gaming demographic is kids. Adults do not take GAMERS seriously. . . .then i go onto finding out through research that the demographic is 22 - 36 . . didnt expect it, but there you go!

[crAzerk]

I'm also interested in these studies Paro

Also would be too strong to say 'proven', nothing is ever proven (besides mathematics).

[BaKaiNu]

The issue with taking statistics result from University SC2 clubs is that you're taking the results from a sample that already have high intellectual capability. Furthermore, there may be an existing correlation between people who play sc2 and their intellectual capability since sc2 require a high level of computational ability and skills, and people who don't have that don't make the cut would very likely to have left the sc2 scene. The best way to actually find out if there is an actual effect is to have a longitudinal study involving random sampling with two groups of people, one playing sc2 and one not, and see the results after several months.

If you let me know, I could discuss with my supervisor to do an honours project on sc2 and psychological growth. Especially if there is an interesting topic that you want me to do and that can be approved by the board of ethics as long as my supervisor agrees on it. :P

-Partially drunk Baka (Curse you freaky_beeky!).

Quick Comments

crAzerk:

My favourite paragraph of the year

[Billy Stevens]

I see people trying to make the point that eSports is a sport
I also see people trying to say eSports does not belong in schools.
If eSports dont belong in schools. then why does sports belong in schools?

Sports dont serve any educational purpose, it doesnt help you solve maths problems, it doesnt help you write essays, it doesnt help you understand Shakespeare. it separates the physically inept from the rest of the classes. how much BO does a handful of highschool kids can produce after an hour out in the sun playing sport? how much deodorant do these kids put on to try cover it up? A Metric-Shit-Tonne. And both smell as equally as bad as each other.

these arent my personal views, just looking at things from the flipside for lols

[Statix]

but no physical education/excercise means health issues out of control, the global economy would love the rise in general health related issues when really all they needed to do to reduce this by mass is get kids to run around an hr a day

[AsylumofSouls]

Originally Posted by Statix

but no physical education/excercise means health issues out of control, the global economy would love the rise in general health related issues when really all they needed to do to reduce this by mass is get kids to run around an hr a day

An interesting counter argument but in my opinion, health issues seem to already be out of control and that seems to have happened since sports were introduced into schools' curriculum.

[breadfan]

Originally Posted by AsylumofSouls

An interesting counter argument but in my opinion, health issues seem to already be out of control and that seems to have happened since sports were introduced into schools' curriculum.

And to add to this, no one is making it so that kids don't get any physical activity. It's not an alternative to physical education. There's no rule saying they need to have sc2 at home.Even if they spent all their free periods at school playing... what are they doing instead? Many people at my school would just read, do homework (probably so they had more time to play video games when they got home) or play computer games at school (age of empires II was the one we had installed)

We're talking about what, once a week for a couple of hours? This isn't going to be any worse for peoples' kids than the 3 burgers a week they eat from McDonalds

[LoRDo]

Originally Posted by breadfan

And to add to this, no one is making it so that kids don't get any physical activity. It's not an alternative to physical education. There's no rule saying they need to have sc2 at home.Even if they spent all their free periods at school playing... what are they doing instead? Many people at my school would just read, do homework (probably so they had more time to play video games when they got home) or play computer games at school (age of empires II was the one we had installed)

We're talking about what, once a week for a couple of hours? This isn't going to be any worse for peoples' kids than the 3 burgers a week they eat from McDonalds

How don't people understand this? You're exactly right breadfan!

[ToRVenom]

Could This Game Become a replacement for chess. Im not 100% sure if this would be possible. However i think it may appeal to children/teens better as it is a video game.

[AsylumofSouls]

Originally Posted by HoHVenom

Could This Game Become a replacement for chess. Im not 100% sure if this would be possible. However i think it may appeal to children/teens better as it is a video game.

I agree it will most likely have more appeal to youth. However, I disagree that it will ever have the chance of replacing chess in any context, especially at school. As well as being the ultimate level playing field in a strategy game, chess is nowhere near as complex as sc2 which makes it far easier to get into and play at a decent, mildly competitive, level quickly.

[Paroxysm]

Originally Posted by FaDeKerrigan

Hey Para, any chance you have the links for your claims on SC increasing brainpower/intellect? Would love to read up on it.

Originally Posted by crAzerk

I'm also interested in these studies Paro

Also would be too strong to say 'proven', nothing is ever proven (besides mathematics).

Just to both of you guys, I cant remember where I read the thread, however I believe it was on TeamLiquid during the earlier months of 2011. Of course I could be entirely wrong.

Also, personally I noticed that from playing Starcraft 2 since its release (I was in year 11), my grades improved from high C's and low B's to High B's and Low A's consistently throughout all 7 of my subjects. This led me to get a good final result and allowed me to get accepted into a dual Bachelor of Laws/Bachelor of Arts (Psychology). It must be noted that no extra effort was put in, in fact less effort was put in to my Year 12 assignments, and my marks were higher. I did nothing in class except browse teamliquid and sc2sea (no forum blocks at school, WOOP!) and play tetris or minecraft all day. Again, I did not study at all because I was too busy playing StarCraft when I was at home. However when it came to writing assignments and sitting tests, I thought about all the processes far more in depth than I did before I started playing StarCraft. You guys could say that it is all coincidental, however I think that this game helped to 'train' my brain into a certain form of logical thinking.

[Rockstar]

I wouldn't want my kid playing computer games at school...

[KAshadowz]

I support this idea however I do not believe that it should take place of any of the actual education time.
Currently at my school (Melbourne High School) I am running a starcraft club at school which can be accepted as an official part of my school's co-curricular system if it runs for another 1-2 years to show that it is a capable of surviving long term.
I have also attempted to run an High School Starcraft 2 league but I only managed to receive interest from 3-4 schools as it's quite hard to get the news out to the high school starcraft communities.

[dKiWi]

An extra curricular activity does not need to confer big improvements, or even optimal improvements, in a student partaking it. This is a flawed perception that is relegated to activities that are currently suffering stigma as dictated by the current state of social norms. Why the heck does starcraft 2 have to provide both improvement in mental as well as PHYSICAL well being? That doesn't make sense at all. Especially when alot of the extra curricular activities in many schools pretty much are not providing optimal improvements to a student taking part in it e.g. Malay dance, Journalism, library, tea ceremony and other similar B.S.

[FvRsolis]

The way I see it is that I got days off school to do class performances, musicals and productions. Athletes got whatever they wanted and were forced to train by taking days of school as well. Education is in part the curriculum but mostly it is the environment. If you had something like this in a school, naturally you'd create some interest amongst the 'gamers', most of which (at my school at least) were under-achievers, because they were shunned for playing games and took days off to play. If you gave them some incentive to compete in their local area, you'd give them a reason to come to school. If you blackmailed them with good grades, you would get them to try harder academically.

Basically what I'm saying is that learning to me only happened when I was comfortable, happy and motivated. Having an eSport at my school would have probably prevented me wagging the entirety of junior school sport (a part from when Rugby Union was offered). If I didn't discover a passion for the performing arts? I probably would've been one of those miserable people doing the Suicide 6 and hating my life. I imagine it works like that for everyone.

Quick Comments

breadfan:

[iRLpuku]

imagine you are a parent and you see your child on the computer the whole day playing sc2. and u question him. he replies. "Hey dad, im just doing my CCA homework." and carries on for the next few hours.

end result, his school results are gg-ed.

yes you might think. it happens in other CCAs too. but one must take into consideration how highly addictive computer games can be and because of that children will have a hard time balancing their priorities since now they have a VALID excuse to play the computer. But i do highly suggest a CCA of this type in a higher education level kind of environment. That's because the kids become more mature and hopefully able to get their priorities right and to balance training for competitions and their school work.

[breadfan]

Originally Posted by iRLpuku

imagine you are a parent and you see your child on the computer the whole day playing sc2. and u question him. he replies. "Hey dad, im just doing my CCA homework." and carries on for the next few hours.

end result, his school results are gg-ed.

yes you might think. it happens in other CCAs too. but one must take into consideration how highly addictive computer games can be and because of that children will have a hard time balancing their priorities since now they have a VALID excuse to play the computer. But i do highly suggest a CCA of this type in a higher education level kind of environment. That's because the kids become more mature and hopefully able to get their priorities right and to balance training for competitions and their school work.

that can happen whether it's in the classroom or not. At least having a supervisor means their playing time gets some structure and supervision. Your example is basically a kid lying to their parents. When I was 12, I told them I was going homework when I was chatting on MSN messenger instead.

[Maynarde]

Chess clubs exist in School. As do Debate clubs. So I guess it boils down to;

Do you want to be play SC2 or be a master-debater?

In all seriousness I can't see why this can't exist as a legitimate co-curricular activity / club. Not socially acceptable? Not practical? Maybe. Neither's chess. It's 2012 guys, the world is changing and I believe in the possibilities of representing your school one day via eSport.

[Paroxysm]

Originally Posted by Maynarde

Chess clubs exist in School. As do Debate clubs. So I guess it boils down to;

Do you want to be play SC2 or be a master-debater?

Let's be honest, the majority of teen males going through school are already master debaters

Quick Comments

	Maynarde:	Ninja joke :D
	Synizta:

[iRLpuku]

Originally Posted by breadfan

that can happen whether it's in the classroom or not. At least having a supervisor means their playing time gets some structure and supervision. Your example is basically a kid lying to their parents. When I was 12, I told them I was going homework when I was chatting on MSN messenger instead.

i think u got me wrong there. haha.. u telling your parents that you are doing homework is lying. but in the scenario i put there, in no way is the kid lying. BECAUSE he is indeed doing his CCA homework. and u cant fault him for that.

[dKiWi]

parents can always complain to the teacher in charge of the activity if they think their kids are playing excessively. then the kid will get owned by the teacher for lying

[Bash]

Its totally plausible, but it will always boil down to how much effort you're willing to put into getting a club to happen and how enthusiastic your group is.

i was in all sorts of "not socially-acceptable" clubs through high school (BHS Debating and Energy breakthrough reppin' yo)
Dont expect it to count towards your marks or anything, but if you enjoy it and you're willing to put the effort in then it can totally happen, just make sure that its run like a real school club and you have a clear goal and ways to get there. ^_^

[crAzerk]

@Paroxysm

+ [mambo jumbo about research methods that I just enjoyed typing you dont have to read] +

I love what Baka points out about the confounding variable, in case you missed it:

The issue with taking statistics result from University SC2 clubs is that you're taking the results from a sample that already have high intellectual capability. Furthermore, there may be an existing correlation between people who play sc2 and their intellectual capability since sc2 require a high level of computational ability and skills, and people who don't have that don't make the cut would very likely to have left the sc2 scene. The best way to actually find out if there is an actual effect is to have a longitudinal study involving random sampling with two groups of people, one playing sc2 and one not, and see the results after several months.

Though I don't see how the 'best way' will give you any results - you're assuming there's no ceiling effect in 'increase in intellectual capacity'.


And directly at what you said, Parox, I myself have played games since my 'O' levels (Singapore's major exam for 16-year-olds) and have done reasonably well. But correlation (good results correlating with playing sc2) does not imply causation - you can't claim that 'SC2 improves intellectual capability' just because of this correlation.

The only way that I can see for this to be tested accurately is to have a group of people, pair them up matching them for intellectual capabilities, then random assign one to SC2 condition (learn and play SC2 ) and the other to non-SC2 condition.
Still, many other extraneous variables is bound to creep in so ... GAH. Complicated.

Do tell if the article resurfaces

[Paroxysm]

Originally Posted by crAzerk

@Paroxysm

+ [mambo jumbo about research methods that I just enjoyed typing you dont have to read] +

I love what Baka points out about the confounding variable, in case you missed it:


Though I don't see how the 'best way' will give you any results - you're assuming there's no ceiling effect in 'increase in intellectual capacity'.


And directly at what you said, Parox, I myself have played games since my 'O' levels (Singapore's major exam for 16-year-olds) and have done reasonably well. But correlation (good results correlating with playing sc2) does not imply causation - you can't claim that 'SC2 improves intellectual capability' just because of this correlation.

The only way that I can see for this to be tested accurately is to have a group of people, pair them up matching them for intellectual capabilities, then random assign one to SC2 condition (learn and play SC2 ) and the other to non-SC2 condition.
Still, many other extraneous variables is bound to creep in so ... GAH. Complicated.

Do tell if the article resurfaces

As with anything, there will certainly be a skill ceiling that will vary between every participant in any tests, with all results then being inconclusive. Thus, I think it is plausible to take from personal situations and come to conclusion based on playing time, skill level, grades across all subjects prior to StarCraft 2 gaming, and then finally, grades across all subjects after StarCraft 2 gaming. Again, the results would vary largely between all participants, as different effects will be seen across the board.

Out of curiosity though, did you grades improve or remain constant after playing SC2 at a masters level?

If i do happen to see that thread (it may not have even been on TL - Rookie error on my part ) I will be sure to link it here!

[PulseSPR]

totally support SC2 as an E-CA but i guarantee 100% that korean parents will never allow their kids to get into gaming after school activity

[MrHobo]

While this is a nice idea, this would never become more than an idea in the US. People are way too closed minded. On top of that, I doubt any parent would buy into having their kid stay after school to play videogames. To change or implement new extracurricular activities, you basically have to change the opinions of the society they're in. And eSports is not big enough right now to make that change.

[Kepler]

This would more likely take off in the USA, they simply have more people, a better internet infrastructure and e-sports is much more popular there.

I would much prefer that kids were taught science, maths and critical thinking better than a video game, as complex as it is. You can argue that Starcraft teaches you some essential skills but it's hardly something I'd use a primary source, but as an extra-curricular activity there's nothing wrong with it, I would just play UT2004 with friends in after-school computer classes anyway.

[dKiWi]

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/...pertise-video/

tl;dr: Chess doesn't teach transferable skills but SC2 does.

But hey, people don't really use science or logic to make majority of their decisions anyway. I could prop up scientific evidence about why a lot of social processes are not optimal, but not many would care.

The way I see it, an after school activity has to possess the perceptual quality that the students taking part of them are suffering (i.e. going through shit) somewhat to be legitimate, need it teach actual transferable skills or not. That's pretty damn annoying imo

[faithHunter]

Originally Posted by HoHVenom

We all know that in high school they have sports like football rugby golf chess and all that.
Why not E-sports!
Today i emailed AIC (Sports for colleges in Brisbane) With the question about E-sports within the colleges.
I want to know what everyone's oppion is on Starcraft As a sport within the schools.

Starcraft has been called the chess of this generation. Numerous articles support this.
So i want to get some support with this. so I can Starcraft as a sport within our school.

Thanks guys,

It would be great, as long as:

1. They have the proper facilities to support it. And by PROPER I mean enough mid-high end computers that can handle a decent framerate in 200/200 late game battles.

2. There are sufficient amount of SCII players who are still in college or students that are willing to try out the game at least. This is a problem, since the e-sport influence in Aussie isn't as big as in Korea, that means there will be little to none volunteers in each college. Chances are there will be only like 4 players/college in Australia, and that's being generous.

3. It doesn't have a major influence on academic endeavors. This one will least likely happen, so I wouldn't consider it as a major problem.

4. There are monthly Starcraft tourneys between colleges. That means we might need someone to sponsor the tourneys. TtEsport and SC2SEA maybe?

Other than that, I don't see a reason why shouldn't we add E-Sports within colleges in Australia. If they did, I would be willing to move to Australia from Indonesia (In case my parents agree ;P) The SCII community in this country is unfortunately quite small, there are only like 2 GMs from Indonesia, and there are barely active Indonesian SC2SEA.com users (aside from myself I guess).

[FvRsolis]

Originally Posted by neozxa

It would be great, as long as:

1. They have the proper facilities to support it. And by PROPER I mean enough mid-high end computers that can handle a decent framerate in 200/200 late game battles.

2. There are sufficient amount of SCII players who are still in college or students that are willing to try out the game at least. This is a problem, since the e-sport influence in Aussie isn't as big as in Korea, that means there will be little to none volunteers in each college. Chances are there will be only like 4 players/college in Australia, and that's being generous.

3. It doesn't have a major influence on academic endeavors. This one will least likely happen, so I wouldn't consider it as a major problem.

4. There are monthly Starcraft tourneys between colleges. That means we might need someone to sponsor the tourneys. TtEsport and SC2SEA maybe?

Other than that, I don't see a reason why shouldn't we add E-Sports within colleges in Australia. If they did, I would be willing to move to Australia from Indonesia (In case my parents agree ;P) The SCII community in this country is unfortunately quite small, there are only like 2 GMs from Indonesia, and there are barely active Indonesian SC2SEA.com users (aside from myself I guess).

Uh, most major universities in Australia have a starcraft 2 society that is quite large. For instance UQSS has around ~300 members. Not all of them are 'hardcore' and they probably balance out to around 70~ active people in a local community.

Frame-rate issues on PCs I see as a huge issue, however most schools (even public) in Australia now have at least one room with high-end PCs to accommodate software engineers/programmers/designers/art and media times.

You'd be surprised at how many people are interested in eSports. It isn't as big as Korea, but then again no where per capita (apart from perhaps Sweden) can really rival Korea in it's interest in online gaming.

You worry about sponsors but forget that there are joining fees and club allowances at each and every university, which means that there can be funding from that club put towards a collective prize pool for an inter-campus competition. You have to spend money to make money and you can't approach sponsors without any evidence of profit to be made FOR them by putting money into this event.

(I.e. Fraglabs is now common amongst sc2 communities and the first suggestion when someone asks for a gaming laptop).

The problem always lies with academic achievement and whether or not sc2 hinders or increases the liklihood of getting better grades. I'd like to say it does both, but in reality it probably does the former. Just like someone who spends more time rehearsing or training... someone who spends more time playing will eventually notice a decline in their grades. You can't actually get good marks if you don't understand the subject material. Period. Starcraft 2 can help you develop an approach to learning that subject material, like Acting can help you with public speaking and rhetoric.. or sport can help you with fitness and increased amounts of energy. As I've said before the solution is to force them to get 'good' grades to participate within the leagues. i.e. A GPA of 4 cannot participate in this tournament, you must be 5 and above, or something to that effect.

[ToRDeathsFang]

In my opinion, for now at least, eSports should be kept out of the schooling system. You go to school to learn pointless Maths, English, History, Science and whatever other knowledge that you're never going to use or you may perhaps use if you continue to Uni. In school, you play normal sport because it makes you FIT and HEALTHY, something that unfortunately eSports does not do.

[breadfan]

Originally Posted by DeathsFang

You go to school to learn pointless Maths, English, History, Science and whatever other knowledge that you're never going to use or you may perhaps use if you continue to Uni. In school, you play normal sport because it makes you FIT and HEALTHY, something that unfortunately eSports does not do.

Dude

Maths and Science are absolutely not pointless. No matter what job you have in life, a better understanding of mathematics will make it easier in some way. Many high school students seem to say that (I did in school) but please believe me when I say that is absolutely wrong. Maybe you have a teacher that is boring as shit - many math teachers are. Boring doesn't mean useless though

I learned more maths while I was working (project manager - not exactly something you'd think it would be a big deal for) than I did when I was at school because of how useful it was, and I would have had to put far less effort in then if I had just done it while at school.

[faithHunter]

Originally Posted by Solis

....most major universities in Australia have a starcraft 2 society that is quite large. For instance UQSS has around ~300 members. Not all of them are 'hardcore' and they probably balance out to around 70~ active people in a local community.

Um...Wow. I never knew that the Starcraft II community in Australia was that big.
So yeah, I guess the only problem left is whether esports will interfere with academic endeavors or not. But still, regular sports such as Soccer, Football, Basketball etc has been around in college and they don't seem to majorly affect school that much, and it will most likely also go that way with Starcraft II. I can't seem to find the differences between how those regular sports and Starcraft II clubs affect academic endeavors. If it works out for regular sports, it will most likely work out with e-sports as well.

In school, you play normal sport because it makes you FIT and HEALTHY, something that unfortunately eSports does not do.

What about chess? It doesn't make you fit and healthy, but despite that, it has been around in college as an extracurricular activity/school club at most schools. If chess could work out that well despite not making you fit and healthy, why can't e-sports?

[Akilos]

Well if we think about e-sports in the schooling system wouldn't be that bad at all.
Make a club out of it. I mean it might get the attention of those people who wouldn't be
interested in anything particular might even help those people who are lost and result to
drugs or promote sportsmanship.
It's just a choice whether you wanna play sports or e-sports or you could do both right?