[Eldrid]

Hey guys,

I posted this on b.net forums & TL.Net...

It's a quick write up of about 5-10 min, but it's something ive been thinking for a long time. I dont write too much on the MULE's part, but i feel it's equally important. Please lets have a (friendly) discussion about whether you think it's fair as it is, agree with me, or are somewhere in the middle.
------



1) nukes. Nukes are cool. its always cool to see nukes in gsl and stuff. I love it. But in the game I am going to post I feel they were abused, and moving forward, they are very abusable because of how late game terran macro works (namely, mules en masse).

---> Link attached http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=749 (this is a forum community similiar to TL.Net but for SEA players where I can easily host replays...)


So, this game...

Terran turtles up, masses 3/3 bio/tank/ghost, doesnt attack at all (until later on and i clean him up nicely) and doesnt drop at all vs my infestor ling based play, generally this is a neccessity

He proceeds to nuke every expansion i have repeatedly, and eventually in our big engage at the end drops a few nukes which hit my army and i lose. Why is this bad?
He went mass ghost (like 20+?) and nuked repeatedly - if i try and fight him? Nuke, + snipe a few units...I cant really think what to do against this. Even after the incoming snipe nerf (which admittedly would help alot, i feel this will be very powerful though)

Now, eventually when i do do my deathpush of 20-30 broods & infestors he simply snipes my overseer (this is the part that that will make it easier in a few days)... But if i pull back, and wait for the nuke to land, and go again, he can continue nuking (and i will lose 1-3 brood's each time i go in and out due to snipes, no matter the damage it does due to no broodling buffer) He can do this dance forever due to his mass mules, i cannot however because i have one big army and very few drones in this situation. His units die slowly, and not all at once, so he can easily keep remaking them (they dont die all at once because whenever i go in to engage he drops nukes and i need to backout, or flip a coin and hope i kill the right ghost which is VERY difficult when i cant fungal much (EMP) and he can snipe overseers)

2) MULE's I dont agree with the fact terran can sacrifice 60 of their 80 scv's lategame, build 20 OC's and have equal or better income than me but 60 more army supply. this forces me into killing all my drones and doing a death push OR trading inefficiently until he wins (because he will have 60 more army supply than me - it's VERY hard to trade efficiently with that)

TLDR; Nuke needs to cost supply, OR cost (alot) more resources, OR take alot longer to land once casted/called down. MULE's also need a cooldown or maximum amount of mules at one time (Eg: cant have more than 4 mules in-game at once) to stop lategame terran abuse of the MULE mechanic where you sacrifice 60 of your 80 scv's (keep 20 for gas basically) & dont lose any income... this forces you to do 1 death push OR fight a 100-120 army against a 180 supply army. Obviously... not going to do well, especially if they have the same econ as you.

Comments/suggestions welcome - but please, no "your shit QQ", if you watch the replay i have a valid point.

[HuT]

you're shit QQ

Quick Comments

	FaDeBadger:
	Zealo:	lol

[Meatex]

hmmm yeah its always a pain in the butt how many things you have to keep in mind in late game zvt
I think though - by the sound of it at least - the killer was your econ got nuked
Will watch replay tomorrow if I get the chance
Fungaling will reveal the units plus if he has seige tanks you can burrow your infestors and spray where his ghosts are with a few infested terrans
That combined with mass overseer should be able to help you engage

But yeah zerg don't have much that can deal with cloaked ghosts cause nuke outranges spines so you are forced to have units guarding your bases which reduces your army for engagement TT

[mGGDrGooSe]

I think I came to the conclusion a while ago that there are points after which no zerg should ever let the game get to. I think the fact of the matter is that as a zerg you must end the game before this type of scenario eventuates. I think until something changes, once T or P gets 4 bases, unless you have 6+, you've already lost and the point in which the game was 'lost' was a while ago, not because he got nukes or a mother ship. Well thats my take anyway. I say 'lost' because it's not that we lost, but that we didnt win. Doesnt directly help with your OP Im afraid, but just voicing my different view of the late-game situation.

[faithHunter]

First of all, I haven't watched the replay, so I'm just gonna reply based on your post.

Lings are VERY good against Ghosts, and assuming that you go Infestor Ling, you would have a ton of Lings and Infestors for Fungal and Infested Terrans. Why don't you just kill the Ghosts with the lings?
(you would probably have a lot of Overseers and Spores all over the place if you knew that he was going Mass Ghosts, if the Overseers gets)
And since you probably have scouted that he was (probably) going Mass Ghosts, why go Broods? Massing more lings would've been a better choice, then either use Nydus Worms or just simply A-Move into his base, fungal, pray, make more lings, A-Move again. (not saying that Zerg is an OP race)


But yeah IMO Snipe is a bit broken vs Broods and Ultras, assuming that you are going for mass ghosts.

2) MULE's I dont agree with the fact terran can sacrifice 60 of their 80 scv's lategame, build 20 OC's and have equal or better income than me but 60 more army supply. this forces me into killing all my drones and doing a death push OR trading inefficiently until he wins (because he will have 60 more army supply than me - it's VERY hard to trade efficiently with that)

I thought Zerg units weren't meant to be cost effective? Don't sacrifice your Drones btw, they are vital to recovering your army should you lose them (and you will, trust me.). Zerg isn't Protoss or Terran Mech. There is no such thing as a "Zerg Deathball", and a 200/200 Zerg army is weaker than their Protoss/Terran counterpart. You have to constantly reinforce your army with larvae or you will lose.

Still, by no means am I a Zerg player. Just wanna weigh in the discussion and giving in my opinions.

[Peleus]

Watched the replay, going to have to respectfully disagree.

Firstly, the Terran was rarely supply capped, so your key suggestion of making nukes cost supply I don't think would necessarily prevent this situation from occurring unless you put a stupidly high supply (i.e. 6 or something) on the nuke which isn't feasible from a cost / benefit point of view.

I fully agree though that there is next to nothing more frustrating as a Zerg than a fully entrenched Terran which is almost impossible to deal with. I think your bigger problems came from the snipes however which should be addressed in the patch, not as much the nukes.

The only thing I can suggest with nukes however is either engaging in an area with dead space underneath (i.e. sides of his bases) where they can't launch nukes underneath you and take out his main production or tech to ultra's instead so you can get into melee range and negate the effectiveness of nukes and make snipe a lot less efficient vs you. Otherwise I think perhaps you could have contained him to his corner of the map a little better preventing the split map scenario, and with you effectively controlling 3/4 of the map you can starve out the Terran no matter how inefficiently.

So to sum up I agree that entrenched Terran is ridiculous to try and break, I don't think nukes themselves are super imbalanced but snipe is. Yes mules are always stupid, but again I don't see it being game breaking often enough to warrant major changes (and I get just as frustrated when you kill every SCV they have and still have even economy don't worry).

[Peleus]

With respect neozxa watch the replay, you'd see mass ling to snipe the ghosts out isn't viable at all.

[faithHunter]

With respect neozxa watch the replay, you'd see mass ling to snipe the ghosts out isn't viable at all.

Loading it up right now with X8 speed so that I can freely scroll to any point I want when the replay is finished.

EDIT: Why the **** do you have to wait for replays to load so that you can freely scroll to what part do you want to watch?

Anyway, Eldrid, just a suggestion: You might want to get your replay analyzed in the Replay Feedback Thread. There are a ton of guys there that are willing to help you out and give feedback should you did something wrong in that game or you could've done something better. No offense tho.

[Eldrid]

Meatex:
My econ didnt get nuked much, I saved my drones each time a nuke went off (which is hard to do as you need to find a tiny dot at each base) but rather 3 nukes kills a hatch, 1 nuke kills geysers.. and you can chain nuke.

Goose: It seems this way, however you can still win when a T gets a 4th / 5th with broods if he isnt doing this style. This feels impossible however due to the nature of nukes forcing you to back off, which he can do forever, and all the while your losing stuff each time you engage...


Neozxa: I know i didnt expressly state this in the OP, but when T does this style (youll see if you watch the replay) they dont just put their ghosts in the middle of map and let them get surrounded. like i said, he camped hard, had simcity like crazy, and had tanks. You cant simply "a-move into his base" against that kind of play.

The best you could hope for would be to send in 2-3 ultra followed by 40 banes and rally lings. This is coin flippish, and will not always work (especially if they already have marauders worked into their composition, which they should if your heading towards ultra).

[Eldrid]

Meatex:
My econ didnt get nuked much, I saved my drones each time a nuke went off (which is hard to do as you need to find a tiny dot at each base) but rather 3 nukes kills a hatch, 1 nuke kills geysers.. and you can chain nuke.

Goose: It seems this way, however you can still win when a T gets a 4th / 5th with broods if he isnt doing this style. This feels impossible however due to the nature of nukes forcing you to back off, which he can do forever, and all the while your losing stuff each time you engage...


Neozxa: I know i didnt expressly state this in the OP, but when T does this style (youll see if you watch the replay) they dont just put their ghosts in the middle of map and let them get surrounded. like i said, he camped hard, had simcity like crazy, and had tanks. You cant simply "a-move into his base" against that kind of play.

The best you could hope for would be to send in 2-3 ultra followed by 40 banes and rally lings. This is coin flippish, and will not always work (especially if they already have marauders worked into their composition, which they should if your heading towards ultra).

[TADivinity]

Im waiting for one of the higher ranked players on this site to comment on this for you before I say much, but Ill quickly ask - How many overseers do you have with your army?

I know what it's like to dance with nukes, but if you keep pushing as soon as the nuke flies off, you can usually snipe that one Ghost (Because Broodlord range reaches ghost-to-red dot) - so long as there are enough overseers to withstand snipes.

Maybe I need to just watch the replay instead of talking shit blind.

The only other note i have is to keep an overseer at each expansion with a few lings, to deal with the base-nukes. Again, not sure how viable this was for you though.

[Eldrid]

i only had 2 this game, I think the main issue at hand will stay the same with more.

[TADivinity]

I'll watch the replay, but at blind-value I'll respectfully disagree
The way I justify it is making a bunch of overseers at the cost of a couple+ broodlords is a worthy trade (With speed upgrade too)

[TABottles]

I thought late game Terran was shitty. Again i'm doing something wrong

[Jaywalk]

i think snipe nerf will straight up kill this kind of play. its not going to be worth going mass ghosts and thus no mass nukes. ive seen terrans on streams doing this sort of thing and the zerg just cant attack.

im a big old noob though so ill leave it to you big boys to sort out

[TADivinity]

Originally Posted by ToREchoes

i think snipe nerf will straight up kill this kind of play. its not going to be worth going mass ghosts and thus no mass nukes. ive seen terrans on streams doing this sort of thing and the zerg just cant attack.

im a big old noob though so ill leave it to you big boys to sort out

They achieve value in their EMP though.

I think we will continue to see plenty of ghosts in a late game terran. However I cant see the correlation between "Mass ghosts and thus no mass nukes" ??

[Eldrid]

no one is talking about the mule part

[faithHunter]

Originally Posted by Eldrid

Neozxa: I know i didnt expressly state this in the OP, but when T does this style (youll see if you watch the replay) they dont just put their ghosts in the middle of map and let them get surrounded. like i said, he camped hard, had simcity like crazy, and had tanks. You cant simply "a-move into his base" against that kind of play.

The best you could hope for would be to send in 2-3 ultra followed by 40 banes and rally lings. This is coin flippish, and will not always work (especially if they already have marauders worked into their composition, which they should if your heading towards ultra).

Watched the replay somewhat. Just wanted to emphasize some things: His bases are very vulnerable to harrasment, preferably Mutalisk Harass. Even though he HAS Ghosts that can snipe, if you can somehow force him to spread out his Ghosts or Marines to defend against Mutalisks, it will leave his front center vulnerable, and you can somewhat attack and attempt to take out some vital units such as Tanks and Ghosts. He has many expansions that have little to no anti air.

Also, you should try Nydus Worming his main and try to kill some structures on his main or 3rd.

And BTW, why in the world did you leave that game? You still had a chance to win.

I know how it feels to deal with a Turtling Terran. I once played a game against a passive Terran who walled in his natural and sieged up in front of his base. I tried throwing away many Lings, Blings, Broods, etc. to the point where I have literally no more larvae left, and no more resources left. I died to a push later on.

One point where Zergs haven't really explored yet is Nydus Worm Usage. How many times do you see Zergs at least having a Nydus Network on their base? Rarely, but Nydus Worms could be the solution to deal with this pesky Turtling play. Maybe.

I'm sorry I can't help you any further. I'm playing on the Starter Edition so I can't try out the unit editor and try to simulate the army composition the had against some Zerg unit compositions. (Since the Starter Edition only lets you play as Terran on specific maps).

P.S.: Don't rage/QQ like that. It really makes you look bad when someone watches that match. No offense.

P.S.S: I was looking at the income tab when the dropped a couple of MULES. Holy Sh*t Batman. The Mineral income for the Terran literally doubled. O.o

[TADivinity]

^ Again, blind-shit talking, but I would guess the T was open to muta harass because you went infestor mid-game play? Any competent T knows when to scan and see whether its a spire or an infestation pit. When its the latter, of course their base will be open to muta harass. Because its not going to happen....

He makes a point about Nydus worms - but that isnt a definitive answer at all. We should be able to win without them.

Im going to chime out now and wait for someone to give you an answer for the Mule issue. I dont think the ghosts are a reason for loss though - I think simply getting more than 2 overseers fixes the issue. (Plus, spreading infestors into separate control groups)

[faithHunter]

...but I would guess the T was open to muta harass because you went infestor mid-game play?

Which means that when you switch to mutas, the terran would be really vulnerable to it, since he wasn't expecting it, thus he wasn't ready for it one bit.

He makes a point about Nydus worms - but that isnt a definitive answer at all. We should be able to win without them.

Yes you (probably) can. But it wouldn't hurt to try them once in a while, especially when you've reached late game.

[TADivinity]

Originally Posted by neozxa

Ouch. Was just giving my opinion, mate, nothing more or less. A Gold league Terran could only know so much about the game...



Which means that when you switch to mutas, the terran would be really vulnerable to it, since he wasn't expecting it, thus he wasn't ready for it one bit.



Yes you (probably) can. But it wouldn't hurt to try them once in a while, especially when you've reached late game.

No dude, I mean I was blind shit-talking, not you! >,<.

The problem with the late game muta-switch is gas. Its just simply better to go Broodlords and 3/3 upgrades for melee units.

[Peleus]

The other issue is supply and swapping your high T3 units for the ability to switch to fragile T2 units. When you mass muta the ghost / marine / tank composition can often just roll you because of your comp.

Nydus is something to try, but often not effective because they can literally land often kill it off before it pops with SCV's, and even then it's super slow unload speed makes it quite easy for your army to be trapped when the fragile worm is sniped by the responding army with only half unloaded.

Not to hijack but here is another example of what Eldrid is talking about with the hopelessness of late game ZvT beyond a certain point - http://drop.sc/95338

[faithHunter]

Originally Posted by TADivinity

No dude, I mean I was blind shit-talking, not you! >,<.

The problem with the late game muta-switch is gas. Its just simply better to go Broodlords and 3/3 upgrades for melee units.

Hooray for misunderstanding. Retracted my post. Sorry mate :P

But well, Brood lords get sniped by Ghosts a BIT too quickly, so I thought that Broods weren't viable as well as Ultras.

Just one thing that I just thought of: Despite how awfully powerful Snipe can be vs Zerg, it STILL costs energy. If you could just Neural 1 Ghost and EMP the other ghosts with them, you can leave them energy-less. QxCDestiny () did this once versus a Turtling Terran on stream, but well, it's really a coin flip and you could lose your entire Brood Lords AND Infestors to awfully quick Quickscopes should it fail.

But yeah, I think vs that kind of unit composition, I think sufficient Lings would be enough to kill that unit composition.

Nydus is something to try, but often not effective because they can literally land often kill it off before it pops with SCV's, and even then it's super slow unload speed makes it quite easy for your army to be trapped when the fragile worm is sniped by the responding army with only half unloaded.

I think Nydus Worms needs a buff so that they can unload the exact amount of units at a time based on how many of 1 kind of unit that can fit in an Overlord (8 lings, 4 roaches, 4 Hydras, 1 Ultra, etc) This has been suggested in the Blizz forums, but I don't know what's the link to the thread. But maybe 8 lings is a bit exaggerated, maybe half of the amount of the 1 kind of unit that can fit in an overlord? (4 Lings, 2 Roaches, 2 Hydras, 1 Ultra)

Once in a ZvP (I was the Z) I went up against a Protoss with a turtle-ish playstyle. I tried summoning more than one Nydus Worms to the toss's main so that they can unload multiple units at a time.

[Eldrid]

Lol +1 div.

I think getting more than 2 overseers helps, but i fungalled after my overseers died in this game. In a different scenario where perhaps he gets better EMP's sooner, more overseers yes. I still dont think that was the game changing issue.

Nuke is basically area control which, due to MULE's (late game) is free. 150/100 or something every 30-60 seconds ... you dont even feel that on super huge econ. That applies to any unit comp... it could be super late game TvP where theyre going MMMG And have 10~ O/C's, they can just keep nuking during any engage... And nuking expo's and stuff. You can spine / spore every base up sure. but with 1 nuke (150/100) they can kill a whole bunch of static D way cost efficiently.

Pretty strong stuff.

[Eldrid]

Originally Posted by neozxa

Which means that when you switch to mutas, the terran would be really vulnerable to it, since he wasn't expecting it, thus he wasn't ready for it one bit.



Yes you (probably) can. But it wouldn't hurt to try them once in a while, especially when you've reached late game.

I see what you're saying, but good T always get turrets even with scouting just because they may miss a spire and its impossible to scout every single bit of creep a zerg has. also proxy spire (overlord drops creep -> spire).. they should -always- get turrets.

therefore a muta switch later on, when T will likely be 2-2 with 3-3 inc will only slow down your 3-3 adrenal glands and broodlord tech, and be worthless.

10 muta doesnt really kill anything, it can barely take on 1 turret without losing a muta. 20 mutas is 2000 gas and you just cant afford it. This is not viable.

The nydus thing is good, but again, a good T who watches his minimap will see it and maybe kill it, if not you will get a few units out before they do. If you go ultras first, (or even if you unload your whole army into his base without him killing your nydus) he gets there relatively quickly due to stim, and his sim city with his rax/factories makes his MMG very very potent. lots of chokes, not able to surround basically.

If you multi prong his 3rd/4th during this, his tanks will still be there. It could do damage, but i dont see it being hugely cost efficient.

Drops would be good, but again, people that play this style (and not just once for lol's, lose because theyre not used to it, and go back to standard) get sensor towers and watch for this stuff. The style is very rare and ive probably played it ~10 times ever, but its extremely strong.

I know it seems like im writing off your ideas, i just dont think any of them would be "do this and win", not that im saying there should ever be a "do this and win" button, but should terran react well (not perfectly, just well) he will always hold these types of attacks cost-efficiently and get ahead. Leaving us with the option of going for a late game huge broodlord type army... :|

[Eldrid]

Originally Posted by PeleusSPR

The other issue is supply and swapping your high T3 units for the ability to switch to fragile T2 units. When you mass muta the ghost / marine / tank composition can often just roll you because of your comp.

Nydus is something to try, but often not effective because they can literally land often kill it off before it pops with SCV's, and even then it's super slow unload speed makes it quite easy for your army to be trapped when the fragile worm is sniped by the responding army with only half unloaded.

Not to hijack but here is another example of what Eldrid is talking about with the hopelessness of late game ZvT beyond a certain point - http://drop.sc/95338

this is actually the exact same thing. +1 to you for finding such a similiar replay, and its funny how you say pretty much the same as me at the end of your game :P (Except nicer, basically ^^)

The only difference is this guy didnt O/C spam & sac SCV's. But yeah

You basically cant attack into him because of his PF/Tank wall & ghost means you cant rly ever be cost-efficient (trade energy for units) and he just wins after 50min when everything is mined out on the map. If you look at units lost you had lost like 40% more than him @ the end.

[PiG]

I spoke to idra a bit about this at IEM. I was hoping he would have an answer. All he did was share my misery :s. He told stories of how players like Major would get in unloseable situations vs him and then run 20 vikings into fungal allowing him to win games he had no right to. He had no answer to ghostmech builds or super-lategame Terran.

He went on to destroy Puma 3-0 including a game where Puma went ZERO aggression besides blue flame harass and just macro'd up an enormous army adding in all sorts of units and Idra managed to win by dual-nydusing multiple locations continually for about 2 minutes. By this time Puma had lost just 1 expo and was still looking unstoppable but his army was now spread across all his bases denying nydus and Idra charged and wiped out his main army and won the game.

Afterwards I mentioned that if Puma just walled off with some planetaries, barracks or even bunkers the primarily ultra-composition would never have been able to overwhelm even 1/3 of Puma's army. Dimaga and Idra both readily agreed that the Terran has to make a mistake, in theory, for the Zerg to win this sort of situation. Planetaries are pretty much free mainly minerals and he was floating quite few thousand so he could have defended alot better.

So yeah, I totally agree you shouldn't let the game go past a certain point. This is because:

1) You should have a superior economy as zerg and whilst your units suck individually, your production makes them all-powerful.
2) "If you aren't attacking, you're probably losing" -QXC ... I think there's so much that can go on in this game and that if there is little interaction between the players forces then leads can be lost, losses can be avoided and an advantageous battle at max can quickly turn sour.
3) "Zerg units shit" - Dimaga = Zerg units are bad. They get worse as your opponent gets better shit.

Basically if you're ever just sitting there letting a T or P take bases you're playing zerg wrong. You need to use your units constantly and trade with your opponent. Does this mean attack an entrenched position repeatedly? No. But make use of your economy to force your opponent into expanding aggressively and take the good engages that present themselves. This is hard. It's really hard to guage if an opponent is just gunna sit there or attack.

How to identify if he's this dude:

You Tube

You Tube

1) Count production + scout expansions THE MOMENT they start building
2) Learn ways to push your economy harder
3) Learn ways to clean up his pressures and pushes faster and more efficiently
4) Learn to not overreact to "sharking" around the map with his army to force you into building units you didn't want nor need

Sounds easier in point form eh...

Honestly though the best advice I can give is follow stephano's stream religously. He almost never loses from an economic advantage. What I learn from it every day:

Sure tech switches are great. But each wave needs to be doing significant damage otherwise you're just hoping your opponent screws up. The answer rarely lies in composition but usually in positioning and economy.

Quick Comments

	mGGDaedalus:	stephano's micro is so gosu
	Maynarde:
	syfChadMann:	+1 for the turtle...
	iM yang:	you're a !@#$ champ
	Dox:	legendary post
	VoxMSI.Rogue:

[QEDMazaire]

Originally Posted by PiG

Basically if you're ever just sitting there letting a T or P take bases you're playing zerg wrong. You need to use your units constantly and trade with your opponent. Does this mean attack an entrenched position repeatedly? No. But make use of your economy to force your opponent into expanding aggressively and take the good engages that present themselves. This is hard. It's really hard to guage if an opponent is just gunna sit there or attack.

All of this having been said in regards to the ZvT matchup, do you feel it is a mistake based on zergs mechanics to take a fast 4th/5th when a terran takes a relatively fast third, or do you feel that at this point is would be better to start putting large amounts of pressure on?

A zerg can keep equal upgrades with a terran player, so do you feel that a trading 200/200 armies with a terran a more of a stylistic choice? or a mistake at lower levels of play? or just a case of a zerg being even greedier than his T (or P for that matter) counter part?

[PiG]

Originally Posted by QEDMazaire

All of this having been said in regards to the ZvT matchup, do you feel it is a mistake based on zergs mechanics to take a fast 4th/5th when a terran takes a relatively fast third, or do you feel that at this point is would be better to start putting large amounts of pressure on?

A zerg can keep equal upgrades with a terran player, so do you feel that a trading 200/200 armies with a terran a more of a stylistic choice? or a mistake at lower levels of play? or just a case of a zerg being even greedier than his T (or P for that matter) counter part?

Uh, I think when learning the game (so like, anyone not a progamer, and most progamers also... I still learn every day how bad I am..) it's best to play defensive. so taking a quick 4th in reaction to T 3rd is good. You don't really need superior economy to terran by much until lategame so in this midagme stage you want to atleast maintain parity (~15 drone lead cos of mules) and crush any armies whenever possible, not letting him shark.

That being said macro is a tricky balance so it's really up to the individual. Generally speaking attacking a Terran is a bad idea 95% of the time. That 5% though it's often really simple to just kill them. If a terran goes helion expand into fast 3 CC into reactor medivacs and double engi bay then you know he has a tiny or nonexistant tank count.

This is what Nestea realised crossmap entombed valley vs MVP in i think ro32 GSL this season. He has ~8 mutas out, morphed 20 banes as his bane speed finished and rolled in with BUTTLOAD of stuff off 2-base. MVP got crushed as he had only like 1-2 tanks up at this point and his marines didn't have much space to run. The thing is, as always nice positioning and simcity can hold this so it comes down to how greedy the T is.

I think Nestea wasn't planning to all-in from the start. He played super safe probably because MVP denied scouting. So he finally gets mutas out, MVP pulls back in the nick of time saving his marines and dropships having already delayed Nestea's 3rd and applied good pressure. Nestea's mutas come and see a 3rd CC already finished dropping mules and double ups going so he was like oohhh crap, I don't even have +1 finished yet and he gunna have 1-1 done soon. He has base higher then me etc etc. Ok, this is an incredibly powerful macro build from MVP and I'm behind, he doesn't have tanks up though, make banes and win. He was forced all-in by his own safe play >.<.

I think it's often vital vs these builds to learn to position lings PERFECTLY to shut down medivac harass without having to rush mutas. This way you can hold a 3rd base, delay your mutas, and then compete with these greedy builds in a macro game.

So is it better to attack or macro up was your question? It comes down to identifying those same turtle factors above:

1) Count production + scout expansions THE MOMENT they start building
2) Learn ways to push your economy harder
3) Learn ways to clean up his pressures and pushes faster and more efficiently
4) Learn to not overreact to "sharking" around the map with his army to force you into building units you didn't want nor need

In this replay:
1) Essentially what Nestea didn't do was get a good early scout off cos it was a massive map and he was playing a Terran who knew his shit.
2) Nestea chose a safe route after having information denied, he failed to push his economy harder.
3) He didn't efficiently defend the medivacs having to rush mutas for safety
4) He didn't even try to build a 3rd as he was afraid of the sharking marine/medivac

So after having scouting denied you might be forced into this position where aggression is your best option but generally if you get the right scouting off then you can make the right decisions with enough practice. (perhaps dead space for overlords to safely reach good position is necessary on all maps).

Gawd another epic post. Why do I come on here after having a few drinks >.<.

Quick Comments

	Navi:
	QEDMazaire:	give pig ALL the reputation!!
	|Erasmus|:	You should drink more often if it makes you that helpful.

[ROOT`iaguz]

PuMa's mistake that game wasn't making enough Pforts or bunkers or w/e. The flaw in his plan is that you cannot play a game that long without doing anything to the Terran. You actually have to do shit to Zerg before you get to that stage.

[simon]

watch some late game thorzain tvz especially on shakuras. should get your spirits up eldrid

[QEDMazaire]

Originally Posted by PiG

Uh, I think when learning the game (so like, anyone not a progamer, and most progamers also... I still learn every day how bad I am..) it's best to play defensive. so taking a quick 4th in reaction to T 3rd is good. You don't really need superior economy to terran by much until lategame so in this midagme stage you want to atleast maintain parity (~15 drone lead cos of mules) and crush any armies whenever possible, not letting him shark.

That being said macro is a tricky balance so it's really up to the individual. Generally speaking attacking a Terran is a bad idea 95% of the time. That 5% though it's often really simple to just kill them. If a terran goes helion expand into fast 3 CC into reactor medivacs and double engi bay then you know he has a tiny or nonexistant tank count.

This is what Nestea realised crossmap entombed valley vs MVP in i think ro32 GSL this season. He has ~8 mutas out, morphed 20 banes as his bane speed finished and rolled in with BUTTLOAD of stuff off 2-base. MVP got crushed as he had only like 1-2 tanks up at this point and his marines didn't have much space to run. The thing is, as always nice positioning and simcity can hold this so it comes down to how greedy the T is.

I think Nestea wasn't planning to all-in from the start. He played super safe probably because MVP denied scouting. So he finally gets mutas out, MVP pulls back in the nick of time saving his marines and dropships having already delayed Nestea's 3rd and applied good pressure. Nestea's mutas come and see a 3rd CC already finished dropping mules and double ups going so he was like oohhh crap, I don't even have +1 finished yet and he gunna have 1-1 done soon. He has base higher then me etc etc. Ok, this is an incredibly powerful macro build from MVP and I'm behind, he doesn't have tanks up though, make banes and win. He was forced all-in by his own safe play >.<.

I think it's often vital vs these builds to learn to position lings PERFECTLY to shut down medivac harass without having to rush mutas. This way you can hold a 3rd base, delay your mutas, and then compete with these greedy builds in a macro game.

So is it better to attack or macro up was your question? It comes down to identifying those same turtle factors above:

1) Count production + scout expansions THE MOMENT they start building
2) Learn ways to push your economy harder
3) Learn ways to clean up his pressures and pushes faster and more efficiently
4) Learn to not overreact to "sharking" around the map with his army to force you into building units you didn't want nor need

In this replay:
1) Essentially what Nestea didn't do was get a good early scout off cos it was a massive map and he was playing a Terran who knew his shit.
2) Nestea chose a safe route after having information denied, he failed to push his economy harder.
3) He didn't efficiently defend the medivacs having to rush mutas for safety
4) He didn't even try to build a 3rd as he was afraid of the sharking marine/medivac

So after having scouting denied you might be forced into this position where aggression is your best option but generally if you get the right scouting off then you can make the right decisions with enough practice. (perhaps dead space for overlords to safely reach good position is necessary on all maps).

Gawd another epic post. Why do I come on here after having a few drinks >.<.

Thanks for the really really good reply pig .

[Rockstar]

I agree with you. Mules are stupid. I've been saying this since release.

I also agree that snipe is stupid. I've been saying this since season 2...

Nukes..... I haven't ever faced mass nukes. They are rather expensive though, and if he's massing them he's outlayed a lot of cash. I think the real issue lies with the Ghost unit in its current form. The fact that you can mass ghosts, they can take out any zerg unit in the game, they can cloak AND nuke is a bit stupid. The fact that Zergs detector is a giant weakass unit with a bullseye painted on its back doesn't help a lot in this situation. I believe the problem is mainly snipe making an already strong unit ridiculously strong... However I think the problem lies more with zergs inability to engage an entrenched position. Whether it be protoss or terran. Hopefully the changes in HotS help to alleviate this problem.

[aLtNinja]

In Terran vs Zerg especially when you play a ling infestor tech/upgrade focused style the game is very timing based, if you let the terran sit back and build 30 ghosts without ever trading or killing anything they should win if they do it right. So the goal as zerg is to harass scvs, make good trades, or just kill them with a timing before they get enough ghosts out, when they are just starting to build ghosts is when they are most vulnerable which is normally about when zergs are getting ultras out and or having their 3/3 and adrenal glands finish. (terran is behind in upgades because you invested into 2 evo chambers very fast, you have to use the advantage before terran gets 3/3 and mass medvacs with spread or ghosts!

So if we want to hit a timing before they get enough ghosts out, we have to get a lot of gas geysers up early so that we can afford to get all of our units out in time here are some things i noticed that could let you just kill him with ultra ling infestor

When he moved out on the map while adding 3 ghosts academies and then teching to cloak nuke etc while only having 1 tech labbed barracks you just kill his army counterattack and win.

Some things that may have stopped you from being able to do that are - not taking your third at 9:20 right after he gifted you all of his hellions when playing ling infestor style the limiting factor is gas a lot of the time, if you take your third faster you get gas faster if you get gas faster you max faster.

The other thing was building like 10 overseers and only getting like 2-3 continmates off and only building 3 infestors, against a good terran this should kill you. You want to get atleast 6 infestors right when your energy upgrade finishes, some players like tgun keep building more and more but atleast 6 is important because they gain energy ready for your timing with ultras and 3/3, if the terran is moving out anywhere near your creep as you're maxed with a 2/2 upgrade advantage to his 180 supply wasting gas and barracks on techlabs on ghost academies he is suicidal. Bane nest and speed and or delaying 3/3 for faster timing wth 2/4 ultras + speedbanes can work too.

In this game you kill his army anyway and it's:
139 supply with 3270 minerals 1125 gas for you to
133 supply with 2330 minerals 106 gas for the terran
WHY ARE YOU NOT MAXED AND IN HIS MAIN U CAN BUILD STUFF FAST TERRAN CAN'T

Quick Comments

PiG:

[faithHunter]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

I agree with you. Mules are stupid. I've been saying this since release.

I also agree that snipe is stupid. I've been saying this since season 2...

MULES on Gold are pretty stupid, good thing that Blizz is removing that feature on the next patch.
Currently, Snipe is REALLY good against High Tech Zerg units, and Blizz is also removing that on the next patch too.

That's why I like this patch so much, it removes unneccesary things that makes the game Terran favored, and also because I thought about these changes (and kept them to myself) a while before the patch was even out, so I'm glad that Blizz made it into an official patch

[iM yang]

i prefer qxc's idea of making ghosts do less damage to massive instead of breaking ghosts for everything else

Quick Comments

HuT:

[faithHunter]

Originally Posted by Eldrid

10 muta doesnt really kill anything, it can barely take on 1 turret without losing a muta. 20 mutas is 2000 gas and you just cant afford it. This is not viable.

Actually, my intention for suggesting Mutas is so that the Terran can spread out his army, preferabbly Ghosts, so that they can defend vs muta harass. But yeah, too gas heavy and mutas become awfully useless late game when the Terran builds Turrets.

Originally Posted by Eldrid

If you multi prong his 3rd/4th during this, his tanks will still be there. It could do damage, but i dont see it being hugely cost efficient.

In the replay I don't think the Terran has thick defenses on his 4th/3rd. You could just downright kill them and force them to lift off. I might be mistaken though, the 4th CC could be a PF instead of an OC, but I kinda forgot :/ And if you manage to kill the relatively undefended tanks with something else besides Mutas, the Terran front will become much weaker due to lack of Tank Splash.

Originally Posted by Eldrid

I know it seems like im writing off your ideas, i just dont think any of them would be "do this and win", not that im saying there should ever be a "do this and win" button, but should terran react well (not perfectly, just well) he will always hold these types of attacks cost-efficiently and get ahead. Leaving us with the option of going for a late game huge broodlord type army... :|

Don't worry about it. Even though at first I posted those things as a "do this and win" option, I then realized that most of the time it won't give you an instant win, it will just give you a better chance of winning.

Also, if the Terran is going Mass Ghosts with Marine support, he will have less Marines since he has to make Tech Labs for Ghosts. Maybe Mass Lings would work, but I haven't tried it out yet.

One more thing that I want to emphasize: Destiny once went against a Terran who turtled and went Mass Ghosts. Destiny somehow Neuraled a Ghost and EMPed the rest of the Ghosts, leaving them with little to no energy.

Regarding the nukes: I think the reason why most of your expansions on the 5 o' clock position got nuked is because you didn't have enough map control and detection. Maybe building more Overseers could majorly affect the game's outcome.

I know that I sound like a know-it-all, but I only want to suggest other things that you could do against this type of play, despite not knowing that it would go either way.

Hope I helped.

[ETL.Branno]

i find the idea of limiting the amount of mules you can have at once interesting just because it would sort of act like queens where you need to be on top of it and if you miss a mule it actually matters but the only way i could see what working is if you only allowed 1 mule per orbital but it doesn't solve the late game mass orbital problem.

Quick Comments

Eldrid:

5 at a time max, no other hinderances.

[FS.Kezz]

So the lesson is; don't let it get to lategame ZvT?

[jasonluxie]

I feel like MULEs are vital in the early game, if Terran didn't have MULEs, they would be screwed.
Late game Terran gets all funny when you start throwing away workers and use MULEs instead. Protoss can't do that, if you lose your army, you're screwed. Zerg can't really do that, but it works a little bit differently than protoss.
I don't know how to balance ghosts, it's really weird. qxc wrote an awesome post on TL about it, but he didn't quite address nukes, it was about the snipe nerf.
Nukes seem to be pretty balanced, if you can find them all, but if they start nuking everyone, then I guess you're screwed unless you have the most ridiculous static defense system ever?

[MrHobo]

If you realize a terran is turtling up and going for a ridiculous build like this, best thing to do is try drop harrassing/pushing consistently while taking expos. That way, his production and economy will (hopefully) be much weaker than he had anticipated and he won't have nearly as much as he wanted (ghosts + nukes = a lot of gas). If you don't kill him with dropping, you'll cripple him enough to overrun him with your own army (ultras + infestors can be the most effective unit composition against this scenario).

[Omny]

Firstly, i know im a platinum scrub that hasnt even been playing much for the last month or so.

But im tending to ask why is it that terran puts up with an obvious flaw in production capabilities (vs hatching from larvae and warpins) but isnt allowed to eventually gain an advantage through the use of mass mule late-game (after killing off SCVs). It seems like there are quite a few instances where im told, as a terran that "You simply cant let X or Y get to that position, or its over". Why is it always Imba when Zerg or Protoss are put in the same position.

Another situation im seeing is with the mutalisk vs photon cannon debate, i notice some toss saying that cannons dont work vs large amounts of mutas unless in large numbers. Thats something terrans have been dealing with forever, and missile turrets dont even double as ground defence. We (terrans) sometimes have to literally spam missile turrets over our econ and production buildings, and when we get a runby or bust they are just useless fodder to be destroyed unlike cannons.

Anyway, i realise i play neither protoss or zerg so i dont really have enough solid understanding of the situation, but thats just my opinion.

[PiG]

Originally Posted by Omny

Firstly, i know im a platinum scrub that hasnt even been playing much for the last month or so.

But im tending to ask why is it that terran puts up with an obvious flaw in production capabilities (vs hatching from larvae and warpins) but isnt allowed to eventually gain an advantage through the use of mass mule late-game (after killing off SCVs). It seems like there are quite a few instances where im told, as a terran that "You simply cant let X or Y get to that position, or its over". Why is it always Imba when Zerg or Protoss are put in the same position.

Another situation im seeing is with the mutalisk vs photon cannon debate, i notice some toss saying that cannons dont work vs large amounts of mutas unless in large numbers. Thats something terrans have been dealing with forever, and missile turrets dont even double as ground defence. We (terrans) sometimes have to literally spam missile turrets over our econ and production buildings, and when we get a runby or bust they are just useless fodder to be destroyed unlike cannons.

Anyway, i realise i play neither protoss or zerg so i dont really have enough solid understanding of the situation, but thats just my opinion.

The issue really comes back to the fact that with zerg or protoss neither can get such amazing defensive, long-range units so easily. Seige-tanks are incredibly cheap and low on the tech tree for the amount of defense they give. That combined with bunkers and an arsenal that is entirely ranged (no melee units for terran) and you get a team which you can't attack into if they position correctly (assuming they use tanks).

So the issue becomes the use of planetary fortresses and orbital commands. Against a Protoss or a Zerg you can limit their bases much easier when they are behind, but a Terran can often walk his way to new bases and set up impregnable walls of defense. He then drops 50 mules on this base and can mine it's resources in a matter of ~5minutes.

So the issue is you get a race with the best defense who can expand slowly and steadily (just like in broodwar), except that now they have planetary fortresses to make some bases impossible to break if supported, and mules so that they only need to hold 1-2 fresh mineral bases on the map to keep up with their opponent.

Now surely their must be ways to harass, get them out of position etc etc. Sure there are... but the problem lies in the fact that you can't really hit them where it hurts. With a Toss or a Zerg to really hurt them you kill workers, these exposed weak lil dudes that die incredibly easily. Now I'm not talking about the fact SCV's have 5hp more, I'm talking about the fact that at a certain point in the game their workers don't matter very much. Their REAL workers are stored as ethereal energy withing 1500hp metal vaults that can liftoff at command to save themselves. So the only real way to kill a Terran workers and inflict massive damage when he is pulled out of position is to kill BUILDINGS. Which let me tell you, takes a SHITLOAD of DPS. IF you're using 3/4 of your army to get him out of position the 1/4 which would decimate toss or zerg mineral lines just tickles a terran base.

In broodwar no matter how late if the T didn't have perfect defense then reavers would start dropping into mineral lines and massacring his economy. That's right, a single unit in a dropship. When the day comes we can significantly hurt a T economy in lategame without hacking through multiple CC's then people will stop complaining.

In summary, WAH WAH QQ I play zerg. lol.