[dippa]

Originally Posted by TAJPMoney

dude... snipe range =/= ghost attack range...

Also, whilst it does need 'high apm' to spam snipe, i wouldn't considering holding shift and spamming click on one spot, then then the next spot, 5 times over with plenty of time to change between targets without it being inefficient an even remotely mechanically demanding task compared to things like marine splitting, FF+Storm combos, ling+bling+muta flanks, etc.

and let's not get into this mwheel trick that's just become public over the last few days -,-

also, infestors apparently have 90hp. my bad. no wonder i'm shit at the game ~_~

[fur]

http://www.twitch.tv/avilo/b/308157534

Avilo ranting about the latest changes. For those who a good rage.

Quick Comments

	x5.Revenant:	i lol'ed.
	ToRCrispy:	is he 10?

[lolwut]

Originally Posted by Volition

No matter what i say here this is going to come off as a Terran QQ. But here goes anyway.

Ghost nerf
Didn't blizzard say that terran were under-performing in all leagues under masters? That is, that a player with the same apm and macro would effectively do worse than a protoss who builds and army and 1-a's, or a zerg who has mastered the inject mechanic?

In the hands of the Code S players, ghosts are ridiculously exploitive. ridiculously - you see the snipes and there is nothing the poor zerg can do. But those times aren't that relative for us lowbies. We havent built ghosts in advance (and i do disagree with blizz's comment that ghost energy isnt something us terran players need to consider). When i am building ghosts, i need them right now - and their damage has dropped by approx 45%. hrmm i wonder how this will affect the matchup - but i suppose blizzard has stats etc for that

I find that in my TvZ, there comes a time in the game where you scout Hive is being morphed. At that time, you have to make a decision - do i need to be massively viking heavy or get more tanks or marauders. the wrong decision is GG - and the ghost fit nicely into this middle category where they wouldnt be as perfect as the other units, but still were safe against both.

So now, when we scout the hive coming but have no idea which tech route it will be, what do I do?

It seems a strange choice given that they have admitted us lowbie terrans are underperforming. damn you korean pros for exploiting everything and making my race harder!

Mules:
Completely agree, should have been changed ages ago.

Coudn't you use a scan?

[mGGDrGooSe]

Ooo, message box change :P. So assuming someone goes FFE, 1gate, 1-2stargate type opening, at what time would we reasonably expect the beacon to go down? I'm trying to imagine how long you can stay on muta before they become useless. I'm thinking that now it would be a case of 10-12 mutas to open and then into a non-muta type situation.

I guess once that upgrade finishes any mutas you have on the field will become effectively the equivalent of expensive hydras (seeing as you would have to keep them with your army or at home to keep them alive). So the key would be to stop the upgrade in the first place? If they rush for it on two base then hopefully we can just roll them with a ground army, or if they go for it late, then we get a little more out of our original ball, but would be a big risk to try and mass muta.

Hmm, also thinking about the fact that now they only have 1 less range than spore crawlers, making it a bit more important to ensure they are placed correctly against pheonix harass. Probably a minor point.

[/end theorycraft]

[neKo]

WOOP WOOP! BYE BYE XOXO SNIPE & TERRANS

also yay for phoenixes? I sure as hell don't use mutas in zvp

[NvPinder]

Originally Posted by SmotPokingFish

Snipe range, my bad i must go wake up

true there are other things which are more demanding but if it that hard to just fungal (F?) and then have BL kill the ghosts?

You could argue you should be fighting with stuff other than just ghosts sitting back and sniping the broods, like running marine in first etc, but then you could argue that the marines get killed by banelings, but thats okay cos the banelings get killed by the tanks, but then the tanks get sniped by mutas, but then the thors get good hits off on the mutas, but then the infestors neural parasite the thors, but a pack of marauders run in and quickly snipe off the infestors, but then a fuckload of zerglings come out of nowhere to attack the marauders, but the marauders get lifted off in a medivac, but then the medivac gets killed by the corruptors, but the vikings take out the corruptors so that the terran can drop again, but hydra's are there to target fire the vikings, but a hellion flank comes and roasts the hydras, but then roaches unburrow ontop of the hellions, but not before banshees show up just in time to save them, but a bunch of queens rock up to force the banshees away, but then a high templar shows up out of nowhere and starts feedbacking queens, and now there are hybrid destroyers fuckin shit up all over the place, and the leviathian is suddenly heading in from the east, but it's okay because artanis shows up in his mothership and vortexes the entire battle, and jim raynor kicks the hyperion into overdrive and launches a 500% power yamato cannon into the vortex and kills everything inside.

So all in all it doesn't really matter if the infestors fungal the ghosts so the broodlords can kill them.

Quick Comments

	mGGDrGooSe:	March on!
	ToRSmotPokingFish:	you should take up story telling :p
	ToRDeathsFang:	WINNING
	TAriiChard:	ROFLMAO!
	Asrathiel:	Bwhahaha, is that how your games usually go O_o ^_^
	[TA]LoSt:
	FSBenAD:	LMFAO!
	BaKaiNu:	Absolute champ here!
	fray`Alpha:

[ToRSmotPokingFish]

Originally Posted by lolwut

Coudn't you use a scan?

say they are 4 base, they could just hide their tech somewhere else? should we scan all base?...

Quick Comments

breadfan:

it's called scouting

[ToRDeathsFang]

Why the hell did i ever switch to Zerg from Protoss. Gotta switch back now godamnit

Quick Comments

TAEdarus:

When did you do that?

[ToRSmotPokingFish]

Originally Posted by TAJPMoney

You could argue you should be fighting with stuff other than just ghosts sitting back and sniping the broods, like running marine in first etc, but then you could argue that the marines get killed by banelings, but thats okay cos the banelings get killed by the tanks, but then the tanks get sniped by mutas, but then the thors get good hits off on the mutas, but then the infestors neural parasite the thors, but a pack of marauders run in and quickly snipe off the infestors, but then a fuckload of zerglings come out of nowhere to attack the marauders, but the marauders get lifted off in a medivac, but then the medivac gets killed by the corruptors, but the vikings take out the corruptors so that the terran can drop again, but hydra's are there to target fire the vikings, but a hellion flank comes and roasts the hydras, but then roaches unburrow ontop of the hellions, but not before banshees show up just in time to save them, but a bunch of queens rock up to force the banshees away, but then a high templar shows up out of nowhere and starts feedbacking queens, and now there are hybrid destroyers fuckin shit up all over the place, and the leviathian is suddenly heading in from the east, but it's okay because artanis shows up in his mothership and vortexes the entire battle, and jim raynor kicks the hyperion into overdrive and launches a 500% power yamato cannon into the vortex and kills everything inside.

So all in all it doesn't really matter if the infestors fungal the ghosts so the broodlords can kill them.

That was a fun read

[x5.NotoriouS]

great patch... Love it

[SLCN.Kez]

Yeah I really dont think the protoss upgrade will matter all that much, it'll be much more effective as a deterrent rather than an actual counter. However definitely happy mules are changed and now all 15 of my broods wont die to like 10 ghosts with machine gun snipes

[Nemo]

I think ghosts took 3 snipes to kill infestors before because the infestor was recovering 1 hit point just after the first snipe, whatever fast was the second snipe.

Now the ghost can snipe them in 2 shots. Brood or Ultras without infestors combo are far less powerfull. Without infest Vikings rule and without infest, bio can kite Ultras I guess.

That might be the idea of Blizzard. Change the target of the Ghosts, make them even more investor killers. That was there role in the first place, attack enemy sorcerers that support the army instead of letting them deal with the army itself.

Quick Comments

FaDeBadger:

Correct good sir

[ToRSmotPokingFish]

i dont think the snipe damage needed changing, maybe make it have a cooldown instead of use energy, honestly i love this idea, and then decrease max energy maybe? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[RicocheT]

Looks like a theory build I was (Marine/Ghost/Medivac) going won't work one bit since snipe can't even kill a friggin baneling/ling. Nerfed to 25 damage is a bit overkill. Not such a drastic change would of been better (although you will 2 shot infestors now, which is better than 3). Still don't really understand, when Zerg has such a bossly AOE in fungal and Toss has Collo, also with intense AOE and you nerf the single target unit spell. Regardless, changes aren't 'set' and maybe Snipe nerf won't be so bad.

Maybe...probably not.

Not fussed about the MULE nerf, I saw it coming.
I got a few friends who like to rage hard about mules and gold expos.
Hope they stop their QQ now regarding that issue.

[TAXanT]

Originally Posted by TAJPMoney

One thing to note, assuming the range upgrade costs at least 100/100, that's effectively a range upgrade that costs 400/300 (since you'll be building a fleet beacon which is more or less useless till much much later in the game), TBH I think it'll be an upgrade rarely, if ever, purchased. The threat of it being in the game will be enough to deter zergs from going mass, mass muta, and getting the upgrade for small amounts of harassing muta (<12), would be a complete waist 400/300.

That's not to say I'm not happy with the change because it gives us a way better way of dealing with mutas, but it's just interesting they put it at the fleet beacon without lowering the fleet beacons cost a little.

Yeah I thought the same as well, with getting the fleet beacon and such it seems like you are going to have to know pretty early the muta's are coming to deal with them effectively. I guess where it does help is giving protoss map control back that we generally lose regardless of how many phoenixes we have when a huge muta ball is floating around. Time to micro againt dem muta's to HELL.

[RicocheT]

Originally Posted by XanT

Yeah I thought the same as well, with getting the fleet beacon and such it seems like you are going to have to know pretty early the muta's are coming to deal with them effectively. I guess where it does help is giving protoss map control back that we generally lose regardless of how many phoenixes we have when a huge muta ball is floating around. Time to micro againt dem muta's to HELL.

New strat from Zergs.
Make spire.
Make bunch of mutas.
Force Fleet Beacon+Range Upgrade
Tech Switch to Ultras

Quick Comments

ToRSmotPokingFish:

[TAXanT]

Originally Posted by FaDeRicochet

New strat from Zergs.
Make spire.
Make bunch of mutas.
Force Fleet Beacon+Range Upgrade
Tech Switch to Ultras

I'll make sure archons aren't far away if the muta count isn't high enough :P

[Asrathiel]

Originally Posted by XanT

I'll make sure archons aren't far away if the muta count isn't high enough :P

Mmm archons, my favouritest

Happy about the MULE nerf, though I do feel that getting rid of gold bases would have made more sense...

Will have to experiment with this phoenix upgrade and see how useful it actually is.

[TAXanT]

Originally Posted by Asrathiel

Will have to experiment with this phoenix upgrade and see how useful it actually is.

Agreed

I think it'll be useful, the question is what zerg players will do to deal with it.

[NvPinder]

Originally Posted by FaDeRicochet

Make spire.
Make bunch of mutas.
Force Fleet Beacon+Range Upgrade
Tech Switch to roach

This has been one of the hardest things to deal with as protoss when going stargate after seeing a spire, we have no way to know if its going to be 9 muta harass or mass mass muta, and over-spending on phoenix & an air upgrade can cause a roach switch to put you horrrrrrribly behind.