[SCWarrior]

Hi guys!

Im getting really annoyed with this starcraft laddering system GGGRRRRRRR!

im on bronze level and my bonus pool has been at 0 since the new season, and i dont know why im not getting promoted. i have read team liquids threads from the forum and a few more from other forums. all they do is explain how they work. but doesnt explain why im still at bronze ggrrrrr.

The most frustrating thing i hate mostly about the ladder is if i play a bronze all they do is rush or all in, then i cripple them, when i play against a silver or a few gold members i do ok sometimes but not all the time.
the frustration is im having is that if i KNEW i was playing other people rather then these pathetic bronze cheezers i could maybe perhaps enjoy the ladder probably alot more!

Is there a way to tell what level or league of your opponent is before playing them?

only reason why im asking is because i would prefer to play the higher league players properly then doing blind defences and rushes because of these silly cheese bronze idiots! because i dont know who im playing bronze, silver, gold!!! its too hard to tell

other people in bronze that try and play the game properly, are you are experiencing the same?

any experienced people on the ladder can you tell me how to tell who im playing against?

[Flamga]

Honestly, just play standard and safe, and learn to deal with it as this all in type of play never goes away. If anything it does get a bit worse in masters. Then its a refined play and its quite hard to deal with.

At the moment there is nothing to determine what league they are in before the game, and doubt they will bring that in.

If you need some practice games join the PRACBUD channel and ask people for help there.

[Maynarde]

You can usually tell what league that person is by taking your league, and seeing on the load screen if they are "Slightly Favoured" or "Favoured". If they're "Favoured" that usually means they're a league higher than you MMR wise. Those articles DO explain why you're in bronze; you need to have a decent enough win rate against people that are higher than you, it doesn't actually have a lot to do with how many points you have or what your bonus pool is especially in Bronze.

Also we don't really like whiney OPs for threads, but just keep that in mind for the future.

In regards to improvement I strongly suggest checking out Day[9]'s newbie videos if you haven't already. Also this site has a Grandmaster Manual which has some pretty good concepts written by our server's best players, not to mention a chatbox that they often frequent and are generally more than happy to answer questions.

Good luck.

Quick Comments

Flamga:

[|Erasmus|]

learn to scout. They will be performing the all-ins badly because they are bronze. If you scout what they are doing rather than doing a 'blind' counter, then you will not need to care what league your opponent is beforehand. Just make the right units to beat them and win.

Quick Comments

	Mox:
	Eldrid:	unless theyre building thors. then you gg.

[PiG]

The above comments are great advice. I would suggest though that these 'cheeses' you are dealing with hardly qualify as such because at bronze level they are executed so badly that if you improve your macro mechanics and scouting you can deal with them very easily. Alot of these players have no clue about macro or understand how to make use of extra bases and so often just attack with units off of 1 base. They tend to execute these attacks rather poorly and so I think calling it 'cheese' and getting angry at it is the wrong attitude. To get to the level where taking extra bases and playing macro games is more standard there are many aspects of your play you need to improve first. Otherwise the game would lose its competitive focus as people choose to expand and play macro despite not having the skill prerequisites.

If you follow the above comments and just keep focusing on improving your play you can make it to platinum and beyond in no time.

[SCWarrior]

Thanks guys your comments are so helpful!

what you guys are stating i keep saying things like that to myself and thats what keeps me playing, thinking that hopefully when i start getting promoted then the cheesyness kinder dwindles but i guess it looks like im kidding myself and just gotta play my game instead of worrying about on whats going on around me.

I have recently booked in 2 appointments with 2 coaches to personally give me lessons as this is the best way i can only learn having people critasizing me and pointing out 1st hand what i need to work on more.

i didnt mean to come across as a whinger or a angry person, just wanted to know if i was the only one experianceing these frustrations, but i guess im not also alone but all your advices with scouting better and macroing better is helping me just wasnt 100% right if this is was the right way to attack these silly cheezeing.

im new to the sc2 scene and dont really know any other way to practice my skills apart from laddering, i eventually would like to join a team and start playing in tournaments. im starting to relize that the top players practice againts their team members and only ladder to practice their reflexes and so on.

thanks guys you all helped alot right now!

[|Erasmus|]

Paying for coaching is fine, but I don't think it's helpful in bronze. Make friends with people in the PRACBUD channel or any of the other channels on SC2. Most clans don't mind you hanging out with them. Any player in at least plat can explain the basics of scouting and tell you to make more probes and pylons, which will get you well past bronze league.

Practicing with teammates/clanmates is fine, but I do both that and ladder. It can be misleading to practice with the same people a lot so you know the nuances in their style and it can be tempting to abuse that. You still need to practice with a good range of people.

[breadfan]

Originally Posted by |Erasmus|

Paying for coaching is fine, but I don't think it's helpful in bronze. Make friends with people in the PRACBUD channel or any of the other channels on SC2. Most clans don't mind you hanging out with them. Any player in at least plat can explain the basics of scouting and tell you to make more probes and pylons, which will get you well past bronze league.

Practicing with teammates/clanmates is fine, but I do both that and ladder. It can be misleading to practice with the same people a lot so you know the nuances in their style and it can be tempting to abuse that. You still need to practice with a good range of people.

I think it can be helpful in bronze - 2 sessions seems a bit like you're rushing things though. Erasmus is absolutely right that practice is the MOST important thing you can do.

The lower your level, the more basics you have to improve on. I think you'll find that after one lesson, you have several weeks worth of practice material. There's probably not so much value in a coach telling you twice a week you need to improve your macro. At the end of the day, there's not a whole lot they can suggest on how to make you remember to use your hotkeys and keep building probes and pylons. As you start to get the hang of the basics, that's when its time for another lesson. The higher you get, the more intricate the coaching required.

[cruxBsK]

Yes there's nothing really more to add to this post what the guys have said are spot on (welcome to sc2sea forums) but basically knowing is half the fight if you know (scout) they are doing this BS then prepare for it. as PiG has aluded to already these allins are never refined and very scrappy all you need to do is improve you mechanics and scout (mechanics is obviously spending your money effectively expanding did i mention SCOUTING?)

On solid mechanics alone you can get easily into Plat if not diamond as for the slugfest down in bronze you just have to keep at it and try not to let it get to you after all it doesnt really matter if you lose in bronze it only matters if your losing if you are top grandmasters.

hopefully some of the comments help you

[breadfan]

You can't tell until after the match.

If you're playing vs silver or gold opponents, that means a promotion is close. League isn't everything though - there's no reason the bronze guys you're playing aren't also right on the verge of promotion themselves, the same as even if you beat a platinum player as bronze, while it feels good there's also a strong chance he's close to demotion.

As it seems you may know, the ladder tries to match you vs opponents against whom you win 50% of the time. You have this hidden match making rating that determines what level you're at. As you start to improve your win rate, you'll play slightly better people, and that MMR will gradually slide up.

There's a hidden threshold at which point you actually go up (you never know exactly how close you are to promotion) but I have noticed that when I went to silver from bronze, I had played 4 matches vs gold opponents, and lost 1 (don't read too much into it if they are low gold, they might be on the verge of a demotion after some lucky placement matches). The key is consistency - if you manage to do around 50% win/loss in all your matches vs gold players, you'll slide straight into silver - it seems to have a bit of a range that's hard to explain. It takes more games vs silver opponents if you aren't beating golds to earn that promotion (since your MMR isn't going up as fast by playing opponents closer to you), but eventually you'll get there.

Also, there's no need to blindly defend cheeses! It's never too early to learn to scout. If you're up against a zerg, make wall-ins a priority - make sure you get your gaps perfect and you never forget to have a zealot on hold position if you are constantly being 6 pooled, and can't take a gas without dying. Make sure you scout and if you don't see him expanding, prepare with some cannons and sentries ready to hold off a bust. Don't be afraid to run your probes away from pressure - better to have them lose some mining time and live to resume later, than to lose them all and have to remake before they can mine.

You can easily get to silver without ever expanding, just through 1 base timing attacks. I'm not saying it's the best thing to do, but it's possible, and a solid 4 gate can at least get you into a league where expanding is a bit more common. Otherwise, it's perfectly fine to expand somewhere between 6:30-10:00 game time - don't feel like you have to go nexus first or FFE just because you see it on GSL. Those guys can actually hold cheeses effectively with minimal units - something that the bast majority of people can't

[ToRDeathsFang]

In bronze you do generally face more of these terrible all-ins by people who have no clue what they're doing. But don't think that all people over Bronze are not cheesers. The higher league you are, you will go against better executed and more refined cheeses. It will be extremely frustrating and annoying but it's all about learning to spot and defend these cheeses.

[Eldrid]

sounds tasty deathsfang - you are a fine cheese connosseuir !!

Quick Comments

cruxBsK:

I don't get it :P

[ToRDeathsFang]

Originally Posted by Eldrid

sounds tasty deathsfang - you are a fine cheese connosseuir !!

DeathsFang figured this out on the 18/1/2012

[SCWarrior]

Originally Posted by |Erasmus|

PRACBUD

this channel how i get into it??? in starcraft??? or on this website???

lol, im new to all this website stuff, i dont even have a facebook, twitter or any other thing of that nature, hehehe. all i have is skype, im not really sharp on the social media websites.

Quick Comments

PiG:

haha sounds like me not that long ago :P

[Eldrid]

But sreiously, scout -> react and transition into winning vs any bronze all in, as everyone has already said. Dont use your coaching sessions that you've paid for until your in silver/platinum, before then it isnt worth spending money on as theres so much to improve on (unless money is absolutely not an issue for you, then get the coaching - it will certainly speed up the improvement process).

[ToRXypha]

if your facing cheese all the time scouting will be the key, but I wouldnt be too concerned about losses or promotions, pick an area each week or fortnight you want to practice, make it your focus, after a few months of doing this you will get promoted without even trying/noticing.

Focus on really simple things each time, did i build workers non stop, make that a focus for a week, check your replays if you did, count the game a win if you never stopped the whole game even if the game was a loss. next week choose to make sure you never supply blocked yourself, week after that make sure you kept your money below a certain amount. keep each focus very simple and short. write these down and cycle them each week. As you do this you will find your multitasking will improve and you will be begin to do this combined. this alone could get you through to gold or even platinum.

At Bronze the cheeses will be really bad, to the point that if you kept up on worker production, kept your money spent, never supply blocked yourself, you would most likely walk all over the cheese with out even noticing it was cheese.

Quick Comments

Asrathiel:

Sounds good, esp the writing down and keeping track bit

[VB_WhiplashJC]

PRACBUD is an sc2 chat channel, just put that into the join chat box.

[x5_Potter]

Post some replays so we can see how to help you hold the all-ins and cheeses. Most of it will just be better mechanics which will allow you to get extra units.

[TASlowHands]

You are going to get cheesed a lot in the lower leagues as many players use 1 cheese build so they can work on their micro and mechanics in an environment where they are being aggressive. The great news is that once you get good at defending yourself you have a great chance of shooting up the ladder

Since you play protoss and roach aggression is very popular in the low leagues in ZvP watch the zerg players gas closely with your probe, there is no real reason for a zerg to be getting more than 100 gas for ling speed. When ling speed starts the spawining pool starts to dance, learn the animation so you know when it starts and if hes still mining the gas.

If you see more gas being mined then he has no idea what hes doing (a possibility) or he is saving some gas to build roaches or get banelings and come at you to break you.

[Goldie]

even though you beat silvers, I think it also matters how much you beat them by

[iM yang]

it doesn't matter how much you beat them by, it only matters where your mmr sits, I think you have to have a > 50% winrate against the league above you to be promoted

[Toastyzeus]

I had this "problem" also. I was in bronze for SO long. In the end it really does come down to playing skill. Wether you feel you should be out of bronze or not. I thought I should have been out long before I got out but trust me when I say that Bronze-Silver is probably one the the biggest step-ups any new player will make.

I have a post around here somewhere complaining that I was forever bronze... It was true at the time I posted it but now i'm just plat.

Once your good enough, you will get out of bronze and it will be a grand moment.

^-^"

[TCPKiaSu]

hey I was in bronze too... no worries. just play and ALWAYS try ur best to win silvers and gold players. and for the bronze players situation think of it like ur just having fun! mess with them and build nexus all over the map and use pylons to spell ur name and kill ur own army and make a new one full of dts and stuff..... or u can also try new strats against the bronze players to test them out. just keep on demolishing and practicing until u get a 100% winrate against golds and silvers then u will be more then ready for plat once u get promoted and ur mmr is back to normal

[TABjornbrandr]

Starcraft is a very complex and challenging game.
I spent a lot longer in bronze league than I did in any other leagues - persistence is the key to getting yourself out of bronze.
If you ensure that you watch people play starcraft and do a little learning you will rapidly improve due to a greater understanding of the game. As you progress, you will begin to play by reacting to your opponent in a manner that puts you ahead.
Whilst my game knowledge (plat/diamond level) is a lot higher than a bronze player, the learning does not stop, not even at grandmaster level. Players of a calibre as high as Nestea and MMA are still learning to play more efficiently.
In essence, the moral of the story is that you have to open your mind and think about your play. Don't let yourself get angry after a loss - learn to understand how you lost and deposit that information in your memory; it will help you later.

[Trader]

Just keep playing, the ladder system is pretty wierd, especially in the lower leagues

[Zealo]

you've played enough games this season for your MMR to be stable (more ladder wins than me), if you're still in bronze it's because that's the level you play at.

[Rage]

Originally Posted by Zealo

you've played enough games this season for your MMR to be stable (more ladder wins than me), if you're still in bronze it's because that's the level you play at.

This is unfortunately true.

There is no such thing as a "bronze curse", just like there's no such thing as a "diamond curse". The Blizzard matchmaking system is extremely good at identifying your level of play, especially after a lot of games.

[Jaywalk]

its good to hide bases in bronze/silver. no one ever scouts them and u always have lots of extra mins anyway

[SCWarrior]

i have read everyones opinion in this thread and i just had a coaching session in the last 24hrs.

since then ive been laddering and now im feeling like im crushing people at will and i can almost toy with them little now, lol. payback is a bitch, aint it! for any of u cheezers out there that are reading this, muhahahaha

Anyhow jokes aside, it turns out the biggest problem i had was confindence and didnt really have a future game plan.
i would do my 1st expand around the 12min mark with struggling efforts. after my coaching session from last night im like expanding now to 3 bases searching for a 4th by the 12min mark.
not only am i expanding now more rapidly and better, but also im doing it off 1 gateway when i expand the first time, which really put me out of my comfort zone i may add. there were a few other things as well but these were the main points i looked at.

also i used to panic a lot and shake with adrenline whilst playing, now im cool calm and collective, more so importantly i feel like im in control of games now. im not so frantic anymore! YAY!

i want to put a big shoutout to everyone in here and say "THANK YOU!"
i feel now that im actually playing now, not stressing all the time after a game win/loose.

just a side note, and not putting anyone down or pointing any fingers, but in this thread people have mentioned, dont worry just keep practicing, you will get better. i feel i think maybe if you seek for advice like i did in this forum, i dont think the problem isnt practicing its more so not knowing what to practice. this was another big issue i had.

there was a saying i heard from a very wise person,
"Practice doesnt make perfect, but perfect practice makes perfect!"
which is why mostly i wanted coaching at start, because i thought atleast if i was going to practice something at least i would know what to practice the first time round. practicing build orders are good, but why sit here and waste time practicing a build order if you dont know the purpose of the build order and why you are doing it? because the reason why i say that is i had good build orders just was doing wrong builds for wrong scenarios.

and what a better way to practice by asking people from here, aye?
everyone so far in here have been so kind and cool.

Thanks everyone and i hope i see some of you around someday!

Quick Comments

:

glhf!

[Criven]

I think everyone in Bronze has the same feeling, I think its why people turn to "Cheese" in the first place.

Best thing I did was introduce myself to my local community (Consider Facebook cause it is HANDY) and started sharing my goals and experiences, as if it was as nature intended I had guys putting their hand up to pitch in on my play-style and give me a few hints and tips. I even had someone sit on a whole bunch of 1v1 games and verbally coach me via skype!

I may still be in bronze league today but my games are more calm and collected, I have a focus and when I peek at the game timer I have a clear picture of where I should be and what should be getting done.

Get Day9 into your eye sockets. Get into the Sydney side SC2 community (From what I hear its the biggest in AUS) and just keep at it.

GLHF

[x5.NotoriouS]

The best thing you can do whilst in bronze is to download a replay of a decent level player and try to replicate their build over and over again on the ladder. After each game go over your own replay and see what you could have improved. I think in bronze grinding out ladder games is stupid. However, grinding out ladder games and improving from them will quickly get you a promotion as you will learn to scout and defend 'stupid cheeses' and learn to improve your decision making. Also following the build order as closely is possible is very important so you can learn to memorie timings and macro properly.