[Maynarde]

Mezza, I believe that the majority of users here would prefer to see posts not deleted at all (as indicated by the amount of rep on Whiplash's post), and that's what the rep sytstem is for right?

When there's a post with a giant red "INFRACTION" spread across it, I think it sends a pretty clear message. Then there's no obscurity and even the user with least amount of common sense can see the proverbial red flashing light say "NO user, BAD user." For instance, the first post on this thread... NO zoom, BAD zoom.

Assuming people have common sense has bit me on the ass before lol. That said the vast majority of users here do have common sense in my eyes.

Quick Comments

Nemo:

Exactly

[Mezza]

Yes, people would prefer not to see posts deleted, but just hypothetically, supposing a post was a blatant personal attack like

"you're such a screwup in life because you have no job and you come from a broken home and you live in a dump so what gives you the right to comment on the sc2 scene"

I honestly think deleting it does more good than to leave it with a big red infraction across the bottom. Especially so when perhaps, there's some form of truth in it and there's personal info divulged. But you're right in the sense that this would form a very small subset of posts/comments.

So I'd still say, leave it up to the mod(s) to decide. End of the day, as long you don't cause more harm/damage to the larger population, it'll be fine.

Quick Comments

Nemo:

For generally being awesome, mezza <3

[Bash]

instead of deleting their post, could they Edit it so the "Post" remains, but instead of what was written they just write "Deleted" , and then give a reasoning.
Idk, posts disappearing is confusing to anyone who reads after that point, and this gives mods etc a way to clearly define WHY it was done, and if neeeded what was wrong with the post.

For example, using mezza's post.
"you're such a screwup in life because you have no job and you come from a broken home and you live in a dump so what gives you the right to comment on the sc2 scene"
Could then become
"DELETED - Personal attacks have no place on our forums, play nicely or be banned" ,or something.

Just a thought, y'know, i think they do it ocassionally already though.

Quick Comments

	Nemo:	Yes, exactly
	TAEdgE:	very good

[Maynarde]

I agree with you Mezza in the sense that EXTREMELY offensive posts perhaps should be deleted. And that is something that I've only seen two or three times in the several months I've been here... Which is a huge part of the reason I like this forum a whole lot more than TL :P

There can be personal attacks that I believe shouldn't be deleted, warnings / infractions would be better served. A lot of people ask things like "why is so-and-so banned?" They can see for themselves, black and white, clear as crystal. Extremely offensive personal attacks with extremely offensive language are grounds for deletion, there are kids that use this site after all.

Also, don't delete derailment posts in my opinion. Let them happen and slap a warning on it. If people want to discuss something publicly that has nothing to do with the thread; take it to chatbox or make your OWN thread.

Quick Comments

	TAkrunch:	smart man!
	Asrathiel:	Agreed

[Delraich]

There seems to be an overwhelming support for not deleting any posts, regardless of how inappropriate they are, however, I personally don't think keeping really bad posts in permanent view forever is a good idea (e.g. harassment, racism, attacks against someones family members). Maybe if deleting is still an issue, they can be archived?

Regarding the whole transparency thing, reasons could be posted why the post was removed. I am not sure if when people say "transparency" they actually mean they want to see the content and help make the decision? If this is the case, I don't think that is a good idea because this is the admins job and they have a better idea of previous decisions and precedents etc.

On a related note, what is the point/ advantage of leaving some inflammatory post on the forums forever anyway? I think there is more advantage of getting rid of it because less people will be negatively affected this way. It also means that people are more likely to contribute because they are not worried about getting nailed through some personal attack.

However, any "disciplinary" process is sensitive and therefore a process needs to be followed consistently and fairly with sufficient feedback to the person involved. Maybe if Nirvana is being seen as biased, then a few representatives need to be on the decision group who everyone can trust. How they are chosen I don't know, but they would all need to follow the same rules and apply them consistently. Their say would be final. This decision can be posted with a few reasons and the the post is removed. This suggestion is only for bad posts btw, not random small issues otherwise it will get bigger then Ben Hur.

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

[nirvAnA]

To let you guys know just for moderation of the "SEAL registration thread" which got derailed by the "SEA eligibility discussion", i had to move all the relevant posts into a separate thread. this means i had to re-read through the content of every post, to make sure it was about the right topic, and manually click the tick box for each post (over 100 posts) over 15 pages. It was alot of thankless, extra work and we already do this voluntary out of all own time and this adds to the workload. i've been wanting to finish my wcg and australia blog series forever now but never could because whenever i had free time some other issue with a more pressing priority on the site popped up that i had to attend do. that was also why i was against letting threads derail at any moment for the sake of 100% transparency, which in the first place it didnt happen much.

To put things into perspective I'd like to add that it is always the same select group of individuals who get their posts deleted time and again, who think they should be treated differently from everyone else, and when disputes arise blame the administration for not properly setting rules or having no transparency. When its because of rep comments they blame the rep system for being flawed and ask for it to be removed instead of accepting responsibility that they have been misusing it. The vast majority of SC2SEA users use it very maturely and responsibly.

there are 7,000 users on this site. I have deleted posts and reputation comments maybe coming from a total of 10 different users, just that 10 users keep doing this over and over again because they feel the rules dont apply to them. How many of you have ever had your comments or reps deleted? Its just those same individuals repeatedly.

this also means that all dirty laundry will be aired publicly which i am against as well as something needs just need to be settled privately, especially personal differences. TL certainly did not have to witness what happened and every time someone makes a thread that would lead in direction it stays undeleted and transparent and every disagreement is aired for all to see which i think is a step in the wrong direction.

That was my previous rationale and thoughts behind my actions. Of course I'm not going to hold on to my way of thinking if theres demand for people seem to want to see everything 100% transparent and I will adopt to complete transparency if that is what the community wants. Look at the site feedback thread, all the toruney format threads, even for smiles, chatbox sizes, thread icons, i have always listened to feedback. that has always been my approach, to find out what people want and then implement it regardless of my own personal preferences.

I just want people to be aware that because of a few people using it as an excuse to get away with their behavior - for instance removing the rep system which they have deemed time and again "because its flawed". The rep system is one of the features i absolutely love on the site and i would hate to see it removed because of the vocal pressure from this group who insist on it being flawed and rather see it removed for EVERYONE then admit to themselves they have been abusing it and correct their behavior.

[Peleus]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

To let you guys know just for moderation of the "SEAL registration thread" which got derailed by the "SEA eligibility discussion", i had to move all the relevant posts into a separate thread. this means i had to re-read through the content of every post, to make sure it was about the right topic, and manually click the tick box for each post (over 100 posts) over 15 pages. It was alot of thankless, extra work and we already do this voluntary out of all own time and this adds to the workload. that was also why i was against letting threads derail at any moment for the sake of 100% transparency, which in the first place it didnt happen much.

I agree it's extra work for the moderation team, and within reason this must be controlled. However let's play devils advocate and say instead we simply deleted comments that were off topic? I'd say arguably the discussion about SEA eligibility wouldn't have happened where I think a fair few minds were changed on a perspective, arguably I wouldn't have posted the SEA esports growth thread which was along a similar theme, and we also wouldn't have had a lot of great idea's that were produced as a community. If, however the amount of work becomes unmanageable I think it's personally reasonably to put a mod note (doesn't even need to be an infraction) on the first post you think is derailing / the few afterwards and say please keep this thread on topic, create a new topic to discuss this issue.

this also means that all dirty laundry will be aired publicly which i am against as well as something needs just need to be settled privately, especially personal differences. TL certainly did not have to witness what happened and every time someone makes a thread that would lead in direction it stays undeleted and transparent and every disagreement is aired for all to see which i think is a step in the wrong direction.

I actually to a certain extent disagree here. I'm not trying to go along these lines saying there is any problem with the moderation team, but there has to be an acknowledgement that both parties need to want to discuss it in private, and if someone wants to air things publicly it will happen. There will always be difficulties in discussing things, especially when one party in a disagreement has moderation powers and the other does not. If posts are deleted then one party feels like they cannot get their view out and will pursue any other public means of discussion they can. That environment was created, and thats why deth posted on TL, but I'm not commenting on whether that is right or wrong.

If these disagreements are aired in the open (with a level of civility that is reasonable for mods to maintain) then at least the community can put pressure on anyone who is being unreasonable and stuff is kept in house.

[nirvAnA]

Originally Posted by PeleusSPR

I agree it's extra work for the moderation team, and within reason this must be controlled. However let's play devils advocate and say instead we simply deleted comments that were off topic? I'd say arguably the discussion about SEA eligibility wouldn't have happened where I think a fair few minds were changed on a perspective, arguably I wouldn't have posted the SEA esports growth thread which was along a similar theme, and we also wouldn't have had a lot of great idea's that were produced as a community. If, however the amount of work becomes unmanageable I think it's personally reasonably to put a mod note (doesn't even need to be an infraction) on the first post you think is derailing / the few afterwards and say please keep this thread on topic, create a new topic to discuss this issue.

To clarify what i meant by off topic was the "wheres roz" trolling which spanned over 10 posts. The SEA eligibility was considered a VERY valid discussion, and i rightly moved it its own thread! That was that i have been practicing all this while. It is very rare in the first place for posts to be deleted and when they are it is always for very valid reasons.

Originally Posted by PeleusSPR

but there has to be an acknowledgement that both parties need to want to discuss it in private, and if someone wants to air things publicly it will happen.

We did discuss it in private after i locked the thread. That was my exact intention, to lock the thread, notify the parties involved which was Rossi in this case that we should discuss it in private and that is what happened. If I left his reply that it would defeat the purpose of discussing it on private and i would get "the last word". When its deleted no1 gets the last word and its discussed privately. The thing is "discussing in private" doesn't mean I am obliged to agree to their terms, its more of so theres a better understanding from both sides and in the best case scenarios a compromise is reached on both ends. I did not agree to deth's terms "let me play or I am going to post this all over TL, reddit" or accept deth's apology (if he was truly sorry he would never have done what he did) and hence he made that post in TL in spite knowing very well the effect it could have on the SEA community.

[Maynarde]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

Lastly, this is not a thread for the deth vs nirvana argument to spill over and all efforts to turn that into it will be removed.

Originally Posted by PeleusSPR

That environment was created, and thats why deth posted on TL, but I'm not commenting on whether that is right or wrong.

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

I did not agree to deth's terms "let me play or I am going to post this all over TL, reddit" or accept deth's apology (if he was truly sorry he would never have done what he did) and hence he made that post in TL in spite knowing very well the effect it could have on the SEA community.

Guys, we did say at the beginning of the thread not to bring this up. I know it's hard given recent events but let's try to stay on track with rules as a general discussion without getting into this.

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

100% agreed. I apologise for bringing that up. Lets stay on track.

[Peleus]

Originally Posted by Maynarde

Guys, we did say at the beginning of the thread not to bring this up. I know it's hard given recent events but let's try to stay on track with rules as a general discussion without getting into this.

Fair call, was meaning to discuss the possible consequences rather than the right or wrong of the incident itself but I know what you mean, will drop anything relating to that in the future

[nirvAnA]

Here are some rules other websites have. Thank you for bring this to my attention Delraich, we will definitely be implementing some and have left the more relevant ones below.

Originally Posted by Delraich

I found these rules off a random google search website - not sure if they are useful but thought I would let you have a look anyway.

http://forums.deletionquality.net/sh...ad.php/8-Rules

Major Rules:
No racism or racist remarks.
No Porn is allowed. Links nor images etc.
No Gross, Extremely Violent & Gory images/content allowed. (Snuff Photos).
No insulting statements towards fellow members. (This is flaming).
No talking or discussing serials, warez, cracks, etc. or where to obtain software illegally.
Do not discuss anything that may be illegal, if its in a gray area best to ask a mod/admin first or don't post at all.
Do use common sense when posting, and be courteous to your fellow members.
Keep swearing to a minimum, and do not put swear words in a thread title, username or signature.
Do not claim other's work as your own. When we find out (and we do), you may be banned!!!

Do not have multiple accounts, if we find them (and we do check!) you may receive a permanent ban.
Do not circumvent a temporary ban by attempting to create a second account or using another person's account. When we find out, you WILL receive a permanent ban.
If you already have multiple accounts, please let us know and we can merge the accounts. You will not be infracted.

Remember that people of many ages and many cultural backgrounds visit this website. If you are not tolerant of other people's backgrounds please do not whine about it here. While we do have discussions on those issues, attacking or insulting someone because of their race, sex, religion, beliefs or otherwise will result in infractions, repeated actions will earn you a ban.

Minor Rules
Try your best with proper English grammar and spelling when posting!
Don't double post, triple post, etc. Edit the previous post instead.
Don't post in dead threads unless you have something constructive to add.
Don't ask Admins or Mods about becoming a moderator, or editing your user-title, the answer is no.
Don't troll or derail threads into offtopic discussions, do not bait people into irrelevant personal arguments.

Just because you can spam in here doesn't mean you SHOULD.
All Spam should be kept to the allocated Spam thread.

Regards,
-The DQ Team

I also updated the OP to add the TL rule descriptions which I should have added in the first place, they are extremely detailed and reasonable.

[crAzerk]

With regards to deleting posts, my personal stand is that while deleting negative posts (negative as what has been specified by nirvana earlier in this thread) is good and perhaps even necessary to maintain the nice environment we have here at sc2sea, 'ninja-deleting' is not.

Bash brought up a valid suggestion in this thread which appears to have been overlooked (And I realized everything he said was exactly what was on my mind)

instead of deleting their post, could they Edit it so the "Post" remains, but instead of what was written they just write "Deleted" , and then give a reasoning.
Idk, posts disappearing is confusing to anyone who reads after that point, and this gives mods etc a way to clearly define WHY it was done, and if neeeded what was wrong with the post.

In the future, perhaps leave a 'deleted' message , as well as with the rationale it was deleted

This is kind of a compromise between both parties of 'wanting to keep things transparent, perma-posts!' and nirv's stand of 'deleting for the better good (of keeping threads on track, no personal attacks, etc)'


EDIT: Added an intro and quoted Bash who brought it up. Rep him instead! I basically echoed what he said.

Quick Comments

	syfChadMann:	good idea
	nirvAnA:
	TAEdarus:	I like it a lot!
	Bash:	♥

[VB_WhiplashJC]

That's how Whirlpool does it, I think it works alright.

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

there are 7,000 users on this site. I have deleted posts and reputation comments maybe coming from a total of 10 different users, just that 10 users keep doing this over and over again because they feel the rules dont apply to them. How many of you have ever had your comments or reps deleted? Its just those same individuals repeatedly.

Ban them (at least a temp ban) before it gets to that point. It could be as short as 24hrs.

I think you need to stop trying to please everyone and take TL rule #1 more seriously. If someone is banned they don't deserve to be engaged with except out of the goodness of your heart.

The issue of forum bans and tournament bans should be explicit beforehand (whatever you decide), so you don't have an issue.

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

[nGenLight]

I still don't believe in deleting any posts. Instead of "Deleted" I rather have "This post was censored due to its obscene content" and put a spoiler tag on it. However I can see the situation where you want to delete it if some retard was spamming 200 posts of porn links or something

[Nemo]

Originally Posted by xGKingLight

I still don't believe in deleting any posts. Instead of "Deleted" I rather have "This post was censored due to its obscene content" and put a spoiler tag on it. However I can see the situation where you want to delete it if some retard was spamming 200 posts of porn links or something

That what should be done in my opinion too. And limit it to the absolute strict minimum. Don't fear to warn and infract, but fear to delete as people can't understand what bad things have been done.

Plus, you should delegate more to your mod team. Especially let them mod any problem where you're involved, even as victim (the general case). I found they are too shy, except Baka, when "high figures" of the community are involved. Just skype them to mod that or that thread from that point and let them do the job.

You're too much under everyone fire when you're doing all the mod job.

[nirvAnA]

The following rules are now required to be read before making a thread or replying to a post. You will automatically get the message if you have not seen them yet and they will only appear once. The registration rules have been replaced with this as well.

---

Would first like to credit TL's 10 Commandments by mensrea from which the humble admins/mods of sc2sea who are fully respectful of TL and everything that it has done and as a result, draw inspiration and guidance from. Our house rules are based heavily on theirs.

---

The Official House Rules of SC2SEA


1. THIS IS OUR HOUSE

+ [Read More] +

You are guests in our house. These are OUR rules not yours. We have spent countless hours building our house into what it is, and the very same rules we followed to make the SC2SEA you see today will now be made clear so as to not give any offenders anymore excuses to misbehave. We try our best to treat everyone with due respect and to accommodate everyone's wishes as far as reasonably possible. But this is a private site not funded by any government and free from any outside influence. This means we run the site accordingly to the way we see fit. We are not obligated to follow anyone's notions of "free speech" or even "fairness." Neither do we "owe" any obligation to anyone to perform certain duties or allow participation in any of "our" tournaments. We are not your servants, you are our guests - and we perform these duties because we want to, not because we have to. We allow participation in our tournaments because we can and not because we must. We of course often go the extra mile in making our users happy and have created a fantastic site that people love - that's why we are the most popular Starcraft 2 gaming site for the Asia Pacific region. The vast majority of users are mature and sensible people able to appreciate and recognize this and hell most of you don't even need to be reading these rules so if you're one of these people just skip it now.

But for the few of those who aren't get this clear - we have our limits. If you disrespect admins, mods, or fellow users or worse of all treat us like we are your servants under obligation to serve you after doing all of that - don't you even dare to call yourself part of our community. If we don't like you, we will simply ban you. And for the record, we are extremely lenient - there are less than 7 permanently banned users out of 7,000 registered users, you must be some kind of wonderful to end up in that 7.

2. THOU SHALL OBSERVE FORUM ETIQUETTE

+ [Read More] +

This is common sense. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. This doesn't mean you can't get verbally medieval on someone's ass every once in a while. We don't run the place like a monastery. But, flames are generally discouraged and we expect people to have a damn good reason for resorting to harsh language in the forums. This means gratuitous swearing is a no-no as and it goes without saying that making ridiculous accusations with no basis will get you banned as well. Even simple generic trolling might get you banned. If you must flame, be smart or creative about it, and make sure the flame was warranted to begin with. Generally, you'll never go wrong by being nice, polite and mature. All just common sense, people.

3. THOU SHALL THINK BEFORE POSTING

+ [Read More] +

Remember, there's a reason why we do things around here. Our Moderators are not power hungry, unreasonable people with agendas against specific users. If they ban someone, there was probably a very legitimate reason behind it. Cool down and think about it first before you go crazy with bias accusations and personal vendettas - it was highly likely to be your behavior alone that warranted that action. Read this rule page again because its likely you violated one the rules. If you believe a certain ban was a mistake, you can contact the Mod who banned you through PM but please be respectful about it. Do not take start public threads "demanding fair treatment" or worse of all, attacking the mods in public for their decision. Being smart about it and resolving your issue in private will probably lead to leniency as our moderators after all are kind and reasonable people.

4. THOU SHALL RESPECT ESTABLISHED MEMBERS OF THE COMMUNITY

+ [Read More] +

All other things being equal, we will give preferential treatment to site members who have contributed more to the site and the people who have been around longer. This includes Admins, Mods, MVPs, Casters, Tournament organizers, etc. It's a simple recognition of the quality of these people. Longevity and consistent contribution are prized commodities around here. This does not mean they are exempt from any bans should they break any rules. It just means you should respect them slightly more then the average forum user and keep that in mind before your begin your angry post should you not be happy with something he/she has said.

5. THOU SHALL HAVE FUN

+ [Read More] +

This is meant to be a fun site with fun people. Have fun with it. Enjoy it. Make others happy. Be happy. Avoid being negative. When you see a good post, encourage it, when you see a bad one, don't flame but let the poster know how it can be improved. We don't expect you to have a smile plastered on your face ala Ronad McDonald and neither do we expect everyone to be like superheroes like our staff Nemo or Mezza. But users who are consistently negative will draw the ire of their peers and site staff alike. Nit-picking minor flaws in otherwise very well written posts instead of showing appreciation or constantly passing your "oh so important" judgment from people not meeting your unreasonably high standards - no one wants to know this, and no one cares no matter how "true" you think it might be. No one likes people who have nothing but bad things to say all the time who just focus on the negative. Chill, have fun here and be part of creating this fun positive vibe that we have.

---

Official forum posting rules of SC2SEA

The next rules follow closely to the standard rules on most other standard websites.

Although the administrators and moderators of SC2SEA.com will attempt to keep all objectionable messages off this forum, it is impossible for us to review all messages. All messages express the views of the author, and neither the owners of SC2SEA.com nor the developers of vBulletin will be held responsible for the content of any message. The owners of SC2SEA.com reserve the right to remove, edit, move or close any thread for any reason.

By agreeing to these rules you agree that:

Major Rules

• You will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-oriented, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws.No racism or racist remarks.
  
• No Porn is allowed. Links nor images etc. No Gross, Extremely Violent & Gory images/content allowed. (Snuff Photos).
  
• No insulting statements towards fellow members. (This is flaming). Keep swearing to a minimum, and do not put swear words in a thread title, username or signature. Don't troll or derail threads into offtopic discussions, do not bait people into irrelevant personal arguments. Do not use the rep system to make personal attacks on other members and claim it was just "harmless down reping".
  
• No talking or discussing serials, warez, cracks, etc. or where to obtain software illegally. Do not discuss anything that may be illegal, if its in a gray area best to ask a mod/admin first or don't post at all.
  
• Do not claim other's work as your own. When we find out (and we do), you may be banned.
  
• Do not have multiple accounts, if we find them (and we do check!) you may receive a permanent ban. Do not circumvent a temporary ban by attempting to create a second account or using another person's account. When we find out, you WILL receive a permanent ban.
  
• Not all our mods or applications are perfect (rep system). Just because they can be abused doesn't mean you should abuse it. Offenders will have their rep powers removed or banned without warning.

Minor Rules

• Try your best with proper English grammar and spelling when posting!
• Don't double post, triple post, etc. Edit the previous post instead.
• Don't post in dead threads unless you have something constructive to add.
• Don't ask Admins or Mods about becoming a moderator, or editing your user-title, the answer is no.

Lastly, if you do not like our site or our rules, simply do not use it - nobody is forcing you to. Our community will remain a much better place. To the other 99% normal people in this world, we welcome you with warm open arms.

Enjoy your time in SC2SEA!