[syfChadMann]

Originally Posted by tgun

So, just to try and work this out; am I able to somehow play in this if I reach an agreement between my management in itsGoSu and an Australian team?

tgun and mOOnGLaDe to make their own imba clan?...
Team boss.

However with the 5 people playing individual 1v1s (I don't really know/understand the format) a team with tgun or glade is only likely to get 1 win from tgun or glade (being the untouchable aces :P) However there are GM's that take games off these guys so I don't think they would be such an issue if they were to be included...?

[xpaperclip]

I have a couple of thoughts regarding this. To preface, these are the thoughts of someone who is (1) not on a clan and (2) a lurker who doesn't post much, but reads sc2sea.com every day.

+ [On match format] +

I've long advocated adopting a Proleague-like format, where individual sets are played with new players for each map and then an ace match where a player can come out again (even though PL has dropped this now). It rewards team depth, allows more people to play, and a single good player/smurf doesn't disrupt the entire match as much. It even means the match can be played out faster since multiple maps can be in progress at the same time. However, I do realise this may place some additional burden on teams getting their rosters together for matches.

Another feature of Proleague is that getting the top seed in the regular season is especially good for the playoffs, another feature that can be possibly adopted. (See http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft...eague#Playoffs for example.)

+ [On division separation] +

Originally Posted by crAzerk

I'm not sure if this has been considered, but what is the plan with regards to players who improve?

This is exactly why I don't quite understand how the clan promotion strategy is intended to work, teams only get better because players get better, and some players will inevitably get better faster than others. Thus, I don't think it makes sense for clans to promote/demote as a whole, especially because I feel that is incompatible with clans fielding separate rosters for each level.

I don't quite know the answer to this, but I feel it might need to involve some level of 'accreditation' for individual players and not clans/teams as a whole. Players and clans can have an initial seeding according to their present league composition, and then we let the games decide. However, the problem here is obviously that if each season goes for a long time, and at the moment only one season is guaranteed, having a fancy promotion system is not going to help.

+ [On length] +

I'm wary of having a super-long season. NASL taught us that if you have an extremely long regular season, both players and viewers tend to lose interest towards the end as the advancing parties are mostly decided, and only a small number of matches remain which really matter.

Actually, one scheme which just came to mind which might combat this is Swiss format instead of round-robin. With some adjustments and appropriate seeding it may even negate the need for division separation because it will just happen naturally.

+ [On promoting the league] +

Since once of the goals of having a sponsored league should presumably be to attract attention to the SEA region, there should be some consideration of how that is going to happen.

One of the (many) successful aspects of BSGCL has been the promotion, where every week I was reminded that it was happening, and it was casted, and just felt very active overall (probably due in no small part to the great work of Mr. Frogmite plugging it whenever he could!). On the other hand, PDCL seemed to be this thing that happened in the background and kind of got lost in the noise a bit. It was hard to find updated standings, results and rosters.

What are the requirements for getting an event up on TL? As I think it was Benji pointed out on numerous occasions before, getting an event up on TL is crucial for getting in viewers. We also have a disadvantage in that we are at a pretty crap timezone for the rest of the world to watch live, so perhaps a rebroadcast for NA/EU viewers would be good (maybe getting a bit too ambitious here, I don't know).

A bit of a side issue: Every time a SEA event goes up on TL, it usually gets a lot of "Who are these people? Only SEA player I know is mOOnGLaDe." Very few SEA players are ever going to be added to TLPD, so I think it is worth building a SEAPD (perhaps sans-ELO), where results from SEA tournaments can be collated and also gives a bit of background when matches come up.

Because the community is so relatively small, we typically don't have live reports for casted events, since everyone interested is in the channel watching. But this is one aspect I think shouldn't be overlooked - timely updated results in a place where you know where to look.

OK, so it has turned into a bit of a wall-of-text, so I spoilered everything. Have a bit of a cold at the moment, so a lot of it has probably turned out to be irrelevant mental meandering too. Read at your own risk.

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

[ToRSpartaz]

If you notice majority of GM's/Masters are bring recruited by the majority of clans. Besides theres are members from lower tier clans that are of higher ranks, who wouldnt be classed as elgible for the CL system. So a migration of higher class players will be inspired by this. Making the CL system flawed. Because it is taking away talent from lower tier clans. Besides you can define teams as solely "Pro, PD or BSG"

Just saying yo ^^

[Xenomorph]

I would like to add something on to the format issue. It's in my opinion that determining the format should factor in the prize money available to the tournament. If the prize money for the tournament is quite large, then a medium-longer format would be needed (e.g. a round robin/group stage etc) as the format would allow the most deserving team to take home the money i.e. the team that won has proven themselves by beating the other best teams in SEA.

The lower the prize money however, a more short term format should be used. One reason this would be neccessary is that teams may not be interested in playing for several weeks for an prize that would not satisfy the amount of time and effort put in. (This is of course just a theory, people of course may play for that time period if they wished).

Just my opinion,

Xeno

[deL]

Re: players improving obviously if there's a BSG clan league, a PDCL and an Open CL then once a player in the BSGCL team is promoted from gold to platinum he would just be included in the PDCL team (either the same clan or the associated clan as I mentioned earlier).

Also, a surprising number of SEA players are on TLPD, and there are one or two moderators of TLPD that pay a lot of attention to SEA events and make sure to include at least weekly tours like ESL in the results

[TCPLemminks]

I agree with a majority of the posts here and would like to add:

+ [Format] +

Why not consider using a format similar to that of the TCL, in which the 1v1's are worth points, which is what EveSigns said

+ [In terms of prizes] +

I feel that the cash prize should go to the Top teir league and the FA-cup style (can we call this the Lemminks CL Open, I mean the SC2SEA CL Open).

As for the BSG and the PD CLs, I think an achievement + 1~2 weeks of access to the GM manual should suffice

[crAzerk]

Re: players improving obviously if there's a BSG clan league, a PDCL and an Open CL then once a player in the BSGCL team is promoted from gold to platinum he would just be included in the PDCL team (either the same clan or the associated clan as I mentioned earlier).

Not every clan has all 3 BSG/PDCL/Open CL teams. So what happens if a clan, let's say, has only a PDCL team, and their Diamond player gets promoted to Masters League. Is he immediately banned from the PDCL?

I would think there are more clans that don't have both BSG/PD teams than those that have (I may be wrong), so this needs to be carefully considered and stated beforehand, as a 4 month event is certain to have MANY of such instances.


As for format, my favourite is still 9 Bo1s, maybe not with different weightage (the weightage would favour clans with leet players like PiG, Mafia, etc). Could always trim it down to Bo7 or Bo5 based on whether clans can make up the numbers.

[xpaperclip]

Originally Posted by TAdeL

Also, a surprising number of SEA players are on TLPD, and there are one or two moderators of TLPD that pay a lot of attention to SEA events and make sure to include at least weekly tours like ESL in the results

Oh sure, but there are also a ton of events which are pretty much local to sc2sea.com (like COs or Masters Cups which used to be updated but seem to have dropped off) which don't get covered. Having a local SEAPD would also allow lower league players to be included from BSGCL, etc.

Anyway, was just food for thought.

[Snx`Azz]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

we definitely want you and moonglade to play in this somehow but since you guys dont have a "real" SEA team its hard to include you without unfairly boosting the strengths of one of the teams, especially if you're joining just to play in the SEACL.

One of the solutions around this would be to let you and glade join as "seasonal mercenaries" in the lowest ranked teams in the pro-league/clan division. That would make things more interesting as well as provide a more level playing field. Suggestions are welcome.

If you want to include everyone in this, there is a way it can be done, however I do not know how to address the 'minimum set amount/format of player vs player or all-kill style'.

'SEA Pyramid Clan/Team League Season Challenge'

There are three ways to challenge:

1. You can challenge any team from your current line or 2 ranks above a single tier.

2. Before challenging someone from the line above, you have to win against a team in the line you are in or defend your current team position in the previous instance.

3. You can challenge any team who is placed on the right side of you and the players above. When the challenger wins they can take the place of the other team. When placed on the very left of the right, only the teams above can be challenged. This reveals both a horizontal and a vertical shift.

Essentially:
Tier 1 A (1st)
Tier 2 D (4th) C (2nd) B (3rd)
Tier 3 J (10th) I (9th) H (8th) G (7th) F (6th) E (5th)
Tier 4 S (19th) R (17th) Q (16th) 0 (15th) N (14th) M (13th) L (12th) K (11th)

<1st Place>
> . > . > . <Tier Leader> ^
> . > . > . > . > .> . > . <Tier Leader> ^
> . > . > . > . > .> . > . > . > . > . > . > .> . <Tier Leader> ^

All teams move right or up for wins.
All teams move left or down for losses.

This system promotes continuous improvement within clan teams, and creates a competitive environment. It also allows all teams to 'have a go' against some of the stronger ones within their same tier.

Here is an example of how this works:
- If Team O challenges team H, and team O wins, then team H and O will switch.

Now you might be thinking, 'well wouldn't i always just challenge the team on top first?'

The answer is no, because whilst you may challenge 'any team in your tier level' ONLY the TOP 2 Teams PER TIER may challenge a tier above. Additionally, you might find it more strategic to challenge a team only 1 actual rank higher rather than the tier leading team or a tier above.

How mercenaries work with this system:
- Each team is allowed 1 mercenary, however only Tier 3 teams may acquire a mercenary (Tier 4 teams will not be competitive enough for strong mercenaries).
- Mercenaries are allowed to leave current team at any time and pursue only another Tier 3 team who is scheduled to defend.

This structure allows for teams to grow and have more dedicated mercenaries. This is because a team with a strong pickup will most certainly reach tier 2 at some point, and it would be in the mercenaries best interest to remain with a higher tier team. The option to leave is a fair one, as the mercenary would have to start from a lower position more often than not should they choose to leave the current team.

Incentive structures should be as follows for clan/teams(example):
- Most Improved Team(s)?
- Top 4 Playoffs?

Half the prizes should be allocated to ranks 1/2 throughout the entire season after 2/3 weeks, (example):
- Tier 1 team receives a weekly $10-25 for each successful defense of maintaining rank.?
- Tier 2 teams that successfully defeats a Tier 1 team receive a $10-$25 bonus including the rank up.?

Please discuss, as I feel this is the most flexible structure given what I have read.

[iM tgun]

Can I get an admin to message me with any info about if I joined a team would I be able to participate?

[x5_Potter]

VB_tgun sounds sexy.

Quick Comments

ZC.EvilSWAT:

I like this guy already.

[crAzerk]

Azz's format sounds intriguing but complicated. I'm pretty confused about your '3 ways to challenge' section, especially the 3rd point.

Regardless, I was never a fan of 'challenge' formats, it's better if matches were scheduled by admins (speaking from past experience).
I like the pyramid tier idea though, but have to think of some way to integrate it into a fixture-based format.

The whole issue of 'mercenaries' is minimized too with a Bo9 format (since you only lose 1 game to the 'overskilled' played) , just have to figure out how to settle their affliation.

[Stallion]

Originally Posted by GGAzz

If you want to include everyone in this, there is a way it can be done, however I do not know how to address the 'minimum set amount/format of player vs player or all-kill style'.

'SEA Pyramid Clan/Team League Season Challenge'

There are three ways to challenge:

1. You can challenge any team from your current line or 2 ranks above a single tier.

2. Before challenging someone from the line above, you have to win against a team in the line you are in or defend your current team position in the previous instance.

3. You can challenge any team who is placed on the right side of you and the players above. When the challenger wins they can take the place of the other team. When placed on the very left of the right, only the teams above can be challenged. This reveals both a horizontal and a vertical shift.

Essentially:
Tier 1 A (1st)
Tier 2 D (4th) C (2nd) B (3rd)
Tier 3 J (10th) I (9th) H (8th) G (7th) F (6th) E (5th)
Tier 4 S (19th) R (17th) Q (16th) 0 (15th) N (14th) M (13th) L (12th) K (11th)

<1st Place>
> . > . > . <Tier Leader> ^
> . > . > . > . > .> . > . <Tier Leader> ^
> . > . > . > . > .> . > . > . > . > . > . > .> . <Tier Leader> ^

All teams move right or up for wins.
All teams move left or down for losses.

This system promotes continuous improvement within clan teams, and creates a competitive environment. It also allows all teams to 'have a go' against some of the stronger ones within their same tier.

Here is an example of how this works:
- If Team O challenges team H, and team O wins, then team H and O will switch.

Now you might be thinking, 'well wouldn't i always just challenge the team on top first?'

The answer is no, because whilst you may challenge 'any team in your tier level' ONLY the TOP 2 Teams PER TIER may challenge a tier above. Additionally, you might find it more strategic to challenge a team only 1 actual rank higher rather than the tier leading team or a tier above.

How mercenaries work with this system:
- Each team is allowed 1 mercenary, however only Tier 3 teams may acquire a mercenary (Tier 4 teams will not be competitive enough for strong mercenaries).
- Mercenaries are allowed to leave current team at any time and pursue only another Tier 3 team who is scheduled to defend.

This structure allows for teams to grow and have more dedicated mercenaries. This is because a team with a strong pickup will most certainly reach tier 2 at some point, and it would be in the mercenaries best interest to remain with a higher tier team. The option to leave is a fair one, as the mercenary would have to start from a lower position more often than not should they choose to leave the current team.

Incentive structures should be as follows for clan/teams(example):
- Most Improved Team(s)?
- Top 4 Playoffs?

Half the prizes should be allocated to ranks 1/2 throughout the entire season after 2/3 weeks, (example):
- Tier 1 team receives a weekly $10-25 for each successful defense of maintaining rank.?
- Tier 2 teams that successfully defeats a Tier 1 team receive a $10-$25 bonus including the rank up.?

Please discuss, as I feel this is the most flexible structure given what I have read.

this tier system is interesting but y would teams accept a challenge from a lower team in the lower ranks gives them a chance to lose without gaining anything i mean i just thought then a good way around that would be to make it you have to after you challenge you cant challenge again for say 2 weeks unless you accept a challenge from a lower team. over all the system is cool and one that could work as an alternate. the other issue is if a team near the top have a holiday or such and cant accept challenges then becomes staggnant. that last one was a what if really. im thinking this through as im typing. overall im a fan of it though +1 means we dnt have a "big 4" type thing anymore all the clans can play each other constantly and be proud of progress and could do the payouts at the same time as ladder on sc2 so that theres an easy way to tell when the end of season is. its up to how everyone wants to do it though. Great idea though

[Snx`Azz]

Originally Posted by crAzerk

Azz's format sounds intriguing but complicated. I'm pretty confused about your '3 ways to challenge' section, especially the 3rd point.

Regardless, I was never a fan of 'challenge' formats, it's better if matches were scheduled by admins (speaking from past experience).
I like the pyramid tier idea though, but have to think of some way to integrate it into a fixture-based format.

The whole issue of 'mercenaries' is minimized too with a Bo9 format (since you only lose 1 game to the 'overskilled' played) , just have to figure out how to settle their affliation.

The pyramid structure essentially incorporates everything people want to include within this thread, including the roles of mercenaries.

Find a format you can match with this layout and you have a winner.

[Benji]

Ok I've finished casting so I can make abit more of a post ^_^ Just as a forewarning, whilst I may disagree with some of your points, its nothing against anyone personally.

The trouble Benji is that we should aim for this to be something the pro teams get involved in, but not now - in the long term. This is just a spontaneous event dependent on private donators and has no guaranteed future so if you set the bar too high now at 5 players or whatever or new pro teams form just to play in this and it ceases to be then teams are left with overpopulated rosters. This does a lot more damage than good for the teams and disrupt the scene.

You have a good point, I agree maybe I am rushing into this a little quickly, but the format that is being suggested excludes the pro teams completely. Excluding the pro teams due to having requirements of 6-7 players a week means they won't play, which gives no room to grow. You need to include the pro teams to allow it to grow, otherwise you're just stuck in an infinite loop.

excluding all the other good players will end up hurting the league, lessen the viewers and its not what sponsors want. sponsors can be represented just as well with a pro-team/clan league, i dont see why you are so against including clans. also PDCL players will have no league and we will be alienating a whole division of players.

Viewers want to see players they recognize as well as good casting, Glade and tgun are the 2 known players at the moment, and they attract the most viewers, if you are interested in purely getting views, just have these 2 play vs a bunch of clans each week.

I assure you, in the long run we get more viewers by making people learn our players and teams, if people tune into a stream and they recognize a player or team they like, they will most likely keep watching, and right now we don't have that, we need to be promoting our teams and players. The question is what to promote, our clans or our teams? A format that requires us to pickup players isnt that intersting to me as it's not me building a team, you're telling me 'You have to play with these nGen players'. Why can't I use tgun and Glade for this event to fill out our roster? Jaz is associated with Infi, Mafia with TA and iaguz with aLt, can I use players from them too?


I do admit maybe completely cutting out clans may have been a bad idea, but the more I think about the format, the better ideas I have, consider the following:

Pro League
Clan League
BSGP League

Pro League has teams of 3-5 players, clans like TA, Infi and aLt can pick a more refined list of players from their overall clan, and teams like SQL, xG, arcMSI, Flash, MiTH, Mski can all participate. Allow teams like Flash that are short on members (I think they only have 2?) to pick a player from an associated clan (Like Flash could pick up Roz as Rev is associated with Infi), You can also have a team with Glade, tgun and PiG on it, allowing them to play (They need to be participating, they bring the viewers, any format that excludes Glade is a poor one as far as viewership goes). With smaller teams, the format would have to suit maybe something like EGMC format can work, or even just a GSTL Bo5 format with Bo3's instead of Bo1's to buffer the cast out a little.

You could have a requirement such as 'over half the players need to be GM' to stop tons and tons of teams from signing up, you want this as the elite top level.

Clan League is a larger roster, 7-10 and you can have a larger format, like TCL which allows players that would usually be overshadowed by the pro players in their clan an opportunity to play. I firmly believe that something to allow the up and comers to florish and show their skill without getting smacked down by the top players is something we really need. Put something like 20% of the prizepool here, leave it open to all leagues (even GM) and say that anyone playing in the Pro League cannot play here.

You can have a large enough prizepool to give you the TL event, meaning you're getting more than 20 viewers, and instead of just 1 league getting featured on TL, you have 2 which is an increase in viewership.

BSGP League is the same as usual, doesn't require an explanation, I honestly don't know much about the current BSG league, but it seems to be run quite well, why change it?

[FaDeBadger]

Originally Posted by crAzerk

Not every clan has all 3 BSG/PDCL/Open CL teams. So what happens if a clan, let's say, has only a PDCL team, and their Diamond player gets promoted to Masters League. Is he immediately banned from the PDCL?

I would think there are more clans that don't have both BSG/PD teams than those that have (I may be wrong), so this needs to be carefully considered and stated beforehand, as a 4 month event is certain to have MANY of such instances.


As for format, my favourite is still 9 Bo1s, maybe not with different weightage (the weightage would favour clans with leet players like PiG, Mafia, etc). Could always trim it down to Bo7 or Bo5 based on whether clans can make up the numbers.

deL answered that question with his idea of associated clans, Where a clan from the top league e.g SQL is associated with a PDCL clan who is in turn associated with a BSGCL team.

[crAzerk]

deL answered that question with his idea of associated clans, Where a clan from the top league e.g SQL is associated with a PDCL clan who is in turn associated with a BSGCL team.

Ok so basically the rule that is in place is that any BSGCL participant who gets promoted to Platinum is immediately banned from participating in BSGCL matches and has to participate in his associated clan's PDCL, and so on?
This would also mean there has to be a clear, stated mapping from the start, for all the BSG / PD clans to one level above to accommodate this.
(E.g. Kelvin's Army --> Imperial Winter Nights --> SPR ) (random examples I pulled from nirvana's tier ranking)


What Stallion said above contains some of the reasons why I never liked a challenge format. The way to overcome it is to make it such that you CAN'T refuse a challenge, but then it could still get messy in terms of scheduling. It's alot more straightforward if it was scheduled by admins.

The pyramid structure essentially incorporates everything people want to include within this thread, including the roles of mercenaries.

Find a format you can match with this layout and you have a winner.

Yes Azz. And could you explain the 3rd point as I asked? Why do you restrict the left/right teams (i.e. bottom and top in a tier? ) to be only able to challenge up a tier?


Regarding viewership
I know promoting SEA E-sports is the heart and soul of many here. No doubt, I would also like to see SC2SEA get bigger (even if just in my home country).

That said, we need to assign appropriate weightage to our different goals (e.g. Promoting SC2SEA, Letting Community have fun, rewarding talent etc) so that we don't let certain goals overshadow others.
From what I'm seeing, different individuals tend to be more biased towards a particular goal. This doesn't make it any more right or wrong. It has to come down to what the organizers want for this event, which goal to they want to pursue more.

Once we get this settled, the decision will be a lot easier it seems. For instance, do you want to promote sc2sea (e.g. by allowing pro teams) at the expense of a so-called 'level playing field'? Or is having a balanced, fun competition more important than maximising viewership?

[MazEi]

Hey I'm not sure if anyone suggested this before, but what about a sort of anti-KotH style? Just to put it out there. Like have best of 7 or 9 or whatever, but the winner changes, and the loser stays. Obviously the huge con with this is that if that 1 guy has a bad day then he might lose the whole series for the team but just wanna put this out there.

[JoFritzMD]

I only really see one problem with the challenge system. What if you have 3 teams, A, B, C. Now team A challenges team B, and team B challenges team C. Team A and B win. What happens to C. Does C move to the bottom? Does C move to where B was and A doesn't move at all? Does A move to the place where C was?

In regards to the pro-league, clan league, BSGP league:
Pro League: I personally would say the team would have to be able to field at least 4 players then have a Pro-League like setup with first 4 games then ace match if needed. That way you still are able to have a decent amount of games played while still having the smaller teams. If you allow teamswith smaller numbers to, like benji said, pick up players from their associated clans then the teams should be able to field 4 players.

Clan League: needs to have a larger amount of games, bo7 or bo9. I'm not sure how many (good) players all of the top clans can put out so i wouldn't be the best judge of whether bo7 or bo9 would be better. I'd also put this one in the all-kill/koth format, though the pro-league format could still work.

BSGP: Not sure how it's done now but like Benji said it seems to run pretty well in the tournaments already going.

I personally agree with Benji that the pro-teams should be the spotlight because that's what gets the viewers and the more viewers you get the more attention you can get from sponsors. But as nirvana said, it's not sure if it's going to be another year before the next one so putting all the focus on the teams may not be the best idea.

[aLtShortizz]

Hey guys, i thought spreading the news around and creating excitement would be a good idea so i posted this on the Bnet forums as well. Maybe someone else with a high post count on TL could do it too?