[asdfSchnitzel]

Just something i was wondering about, cheese vs cheese. If anyone has a replay of this email me at micalboy@hotmail.com.

[FaDeBadger]

Dunno if this really warrants a thread, probably could be a blog instead. I think the timings might be tight but you could probably get a siege tank out in time. I seem to remember MKP v a toss on Terminus where he held it off once his tank came out.

That said, I'm pretty sure you could scout the 4 gate and adapt if the 1/1/1 can't hold it.

[QEDMazaire]

http://blip.tv/day9tv/dreamhack-wint...game-3-5772932

That's heros build against a 111. i have never known 4g to work on higher levels of play.

[TCPKiaSu]

Originally Posted by LOSchnitzel

Just something i was wondering about, cheese vs cheese. If anyone has a replay of this email me at micalboy@hotmail.com.

I don't think it will work if they get cloaked banshees..... and this is not so much of a cheese I think? and remmeber that the terran can just easily build a bunker at their ramp so keep that in mind.. and remember.. SCV REPAIR O_O

Quick Comments

sRFullstop:

Clocked banshees :)

[syfChadMann]

I don't believe 4gate beats a 1/1/1..
Best thing to do.. find someone that has a decent 1/1/1 build.. and practice 4gate against it..
it probably works if you get a good proxy pylon.. but I can't imagine it working otherwise..

[asdfSchnitzel]

Ok thanks =D

[Imperial]

At least at masters level it doesnt, because the protoss cant see my banshees, because they are invisible. Sometimes i like to produce scvs aswell, they can repair and mine minerals.

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Highlander:

I lol'd

[Venom]

Well from my own experience (~masters) the 4gate does work if the T doesn't see it coming and has no scvs beside their bunker ready to repair and I can just break through and go straight for the tech lab on the starport. Pretty tight timing I think as I've destroyed it ~2 secs before cloak completed though but otherwise it should be an easy win as there's usually only 1 tank 1 banshee and a few marines.

I've won quite a few times with 4g against 111 but maybe my opponents are just bad at it haha.

[syfChadMann]

Originally Posted by Venom

Well from my own experience (~masters) the 4gate does work if the T doesn't see it coming and has no scvs beside their bunker ready to repair and I can just break through and go straight for the tech lab on the starport. Pretty tight timing I think as I've destroyed it ~2 secs before cloak completed though but otherwise it should be an easy win as there's usually only 1 tank 1 banshee and a few marines.

I've won quite a few times with 4g against 111 but maybe my opponents are just bad at it haha.

imo the best way to rush at a 1/1/1 would be an Immortal bust build.. but I don't hit many T's that 1/1/1...
hit with 2 immortals.. take out the bunkers and do some damage.. comes down to micro.. but afterwards you have a robo and some gates.. plus if you do a bit of damage you should be able to expand behind it.... I think the aim isn't always to kill.. but to do some damage and derail or delay the 1/1/1 till its easier to deal with..

[Zealo]

1 base carrier rush
they'll never expect it and carriers win in base race vs cloak banshees

[Ruscour]

My standard opening (on maps where it's not safe to nexus first) PvT is to one gate expand into 3gate pressure, warping in 3 stalkers at a proxy pylon at the standard warpgate time with a nexus finishing up around the same time. It's only 3 gates, and the timing is THERE AND THEN. If I think I can break it because the Terran is being greedy I'll chrono the gates, forcefield behind the bunker, zealots in front and go for it. It can be a free win but if you lose too much you're destined to die to banshees. It's way too risky close air because of how quick banshees can make it back home.

Warp prism 4gate is good as well but you need to be very tight with timings and it's insanely all-in.

So basically...it's really risky but sometimes you can go for it if you think it'll work. I definitely don't think a 4gate is the answer though. The build I mentioned (1gate FE into 3gate) is probably best because when you poke up the ramp you can determine whether or not it's a good idea to go balls deep or just make a robo and try and hold it off.

You need good control because zealot/sentry/stalker cannot be 1a'd like ranged move'n'shoot units that Terran has at the top of that ramp. The stalkers must be in range to hit things (BANSHEES), zealots must be hitting units and not following stuff around, sentries must be in place to forcefield and not stuck in the back. Basically if you don't have the multitasking to macro back home and micro the units, it's always a better idea to just go home, throw down that robo and hold.

[breadfan]

it might depend what sort of 1-1-1 they're going into. If they are gambling on you NOT 4gating and don't scout you to that effect and don't have a bunker down or enough marines to defend, sure. In lower leagues it might just be which of you is faster. Generally 1-1-1 is a safe build against cheeses and I would consider turning around if you spot bunker(s) and/or tanks waiting on the other side of a wall in.

[Ruscour]

Originally Posted by breadfan

it might depend what sort of 1-1-1 they're going into. If they are gambling on you NOT 4gating and don't scout you to that effect and don't have a bunker down or enough marines to defend, sure. In lower leagues it might just be which of you is faster. Generally 1-1-1 is a safe build against cheeses and I would consider turning around if you spot bunker(s) and/or tanks waiting on the other side of a wall in.

You see a bunker in 90% of 1/1/1s (every good one that is). Normally just 1 bunker, but that bunker is the catchall defense that Terran needs while they're teching, they're not going to skimp on it. If for some reason they don't make that bunker you should by all means go kill them but that very rarely ever happens (some guy tried it on Tal'darim...and died very easily)

[aLtShortizz]

Iaguz wants to know how are u suppose to defend a 1-1-1 when u have no detection against Banshee.

Hes banned btw.

[breadfan]

Originally Posted by Ruscour

You see a bunker in 90% of 1/1/1s (every good one that is). Normally just 1 bunker, but that bunker is the catchall defense that Terran needs while they're teching, they're not going to skimp on it. If for some reason they don't make that bunker you should by all means go kill them but that very rarely ever happens (some guy tried it on Tal'darim...and died very easily)

I'm not familiar with a rule that 1-1-1 must include a bunker for it to be good. I wouldn't necessarily include one any time I scout a fast expand for example, because I'm going to be better served to use those minerals to get to my planned composition faster 9 times out of 10

[mGGAequitas]

yes a 4 gate can defeat a 1-1-1 but depending on the type of 1-1-1 they decide to do because there are so many variations.

ill upload/send my game vs HoOh in the one of the tournament when im at my computer,


also i doubt that the terran can have cloak (also cloak isn't in many 111's) by the time the 4 gate hits. and if they do you can probably just wait for their energy to run out while u kill the rest of the base

[ROOT`iaguz]

ALRIGHT, I can educate you bastards now...

4gate has a small timing when it gets to beat cloaked banshees. At about 6 minutes the terran will often have maybe 1 bunker and if the protoss can crack through it really quickly before the Terran notices he's in a lot of trouble and pull scv's then he wins cuz he hits whilst there's no banshee or anything going.

BUT if the Terran notices then he basically wins. Protoss will be reeling to have detection up to stop the banshee from just ezpzing all the probes and from there it's 1 base vs 1 base with protoss on **** all tech. Marine/Tank/Starport demolishes a Protoss who has no tech 1 base vs 1 base.

There you go. Full response.

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	SPGDoG:
	breadfan: