[breadfan]

I'm still a low league player. I check for the basics when scouting - worker shortage on the mineral line, how many gas and how much has been harvested, various building spotting and I'm getting the hang of some early building timings. While I'm OK scouting Terran (it's what I know), often I'll be surprised by the others, either by the appearance of some unit I wasn't expecting, or equally by a unit not appearing when I expect it to (especially when I invest in some hard counter unit and find myself at a disadvantage as a result).

What's the best approach to learn all the variations to look for? Should I continue watching replays and listening to streamers/casts explain what they're doing? Should I try out the other races more seriously to learn the tech trees and common build orders? Should I just forget about focusing on it altogether and let it come naturally?

[crAzerk]

Some specific examples could help, seems like a very general question. What is your example of a hard counter you go for and it doesn't appear?

It's important to know some basic timings, like ~10 mins for a Z's 2 base muta, Other than that, I don't see how you can really be surprised by anything your opponent throws at you because T (at least at <Diamond level, I'm not talking about Masters-GM level where there's more metagaming, etc) seems fairly straightforward to me in terms of the unit comp -
vP you get MMM and add in either ghosts or vikings (I prefer ghosts because not everyone goes colussus, some go the templar tech, though ghosts need more micro)
vZ you get MM/tank and try to do drops, maybe add in a Thor or 2 if he masses muta (which is 80% of the time)
vT marine/hellion (nowadays everyone's going hellion) tank vikings

Pretty straightforward? Would help if you had an example to provide.

[Frogmite]

If you play at low level, like me, the early scouting is very important.
In vs when you scout at the beginning you need to know the following:

First scout
- How many gas?
no gas : fast expand/all-in
one gas: 2 rax/factory, stim push,
two gas: 1/1/1, banshee rush

- How many rax?
no rax in his base + no gas -> proxy rax marines pressure
no rax in his base + one gas -> proxy reapers
one rax no gas -> fast expand
2 rax no gas -> all-in

- Wall-in?
If wall with three depot -> cheesing
If wall with a barrack, check the add-on, tech lab = stim/reaper, reactor = marines/hellion pressure

Second scout

Send a SCV to his main at 7-8 min
- check if there's an expo up, if no expo then he will be attacking soon.
- check if your scv dies to tanks in siege mode,

If you're not 100% sure, you can still scan his base once your second orbital command is up (7-8 min mark), or send a reaper to his base.

Quick Comments

	breadfan:
	Nemo:	Short and precise

[breadfan]

As an example I guess seeing a zerg go mass ling, and preparing for muta but instead getting infestor. By this point, I've sunk a lot of economy into turrets and thors (and the tech to go with it) and instead I'm scrambling to get together some Ghosts. I'm aware of the 10 min muta timing, and others I notice are around 13 and 16 minutes (some of these may just be delayed by opponent macro).

Double gas Protoss is another - I think it's got to be Void Rays or DTs, and usually I'll see a DT rush at this level (it must be quite successful against other Terrans I guess). Not such a big deal if it's a more passive build with extra sentries, as whichever route I take could turn out well for me in the late game.

I guess I was trying to be vague though. I suspect that the answer to these specific things might just be "macro better with a standard opening = win". It might also be better use of scans (knowing what time the Dark Shrine will go down and making better decisions about the scan location) but in many cases it seems there is some other signal that can tell me which one is likely, like the number of tech structures or gateways down at the same point. For example, I was watching TARossi's stream and he made the comment about zerg taking double evo chamber, and what that meant for mutas.

It's not so much that this is the one part of my game I have picked to improve on to get to Diamond, it's just *an* area.

[|Erasmus|]

Originally Posted by breadfan

As an example I guess seeing a zerg go mass ling, and preparing for muta but instead getting infestor. By this point, I've sunk a lot of economy into turrets and thors (and the tech to go with it) and instead I'm scrambling to get together some Ghosts. I'm aware of the 10 min muta timing, and others I notice are around 13 and 16 minutes (some of these may just be delayed by opponent macro).

That's just making assumptions and bad decisions.... Mass ling without banes is more likely to be infestor play. Infestors deal with the mass ling counters like marine and hellion very well, and they unlock fast tier 3 tech with a heavy upgraded ling focus that gets you 3/5 Ultras relatively fast. That kind of style Zerg was popular for a while (Stephano used it a bit too not long ago).

You should also not be getting thors out at that particular timing unless you are going full mech... marine-tank with a few turrets (1-2 in each base should handle the initial mutas) should hold strong while you determine they are indeed going to keep producing mutas and will need thors.

If you instead make those tanks from your factory, you should be okay against both muta/baneling and infestor/ling, as tanks will hit infestors before they can fungal.

I like to just throw down a scan at around 10 minutes to spot the lair tech he may be throwing at me. Attempting a drop at that time if you have medivacs is a good way of spotting it and also doing damage while he's saving up resources to produce a large round of mutas/infestors.

Double gas Protoss is another - I think it's got to be Void Rays or DTs, and usually I'll see a DT rush at this level (it must be quite successful against other Terrans I guess). Not such a big deal if it's a more passive build with extra sentries, as whichever route I take could turn out well for me in the late game.

Yeah, could be 3 gate w/robo or stargate or dt or fast archon/blink/charge upgrade... Not really any way of telling just off double gas. Try and spot an expansion timing too. If you see the fastish expo it's obviously a 1-3 gate expand with sentries. You should be fine to expand against any of those builds, but anything other than a sentry expand will require a good number of bunkers.

Also helps to scan where you know he has pylons (good idea to look for any pylons right at the back of the base with the scouting scv) to spot a stargate/robo/twilight and see if it's a stargate to spot for pylons around your base, etc. so you don't just die to warpins in your main while you have 4 bunkers at your nat.

Quick Comments

	Maynarde:	Good post.
	breadfan:

[crAzerk]

I can't really speak for TvP much because I'm not that experienced but I asked you to be specific about those so that others (like Erasmus) can help

As an example I guess seeing a zerg go mass ling, and preparing for muta but instead getting infestor. By this point, I've sunk a lot of economy into turrets and thors (and the tech to go with it) and instead I'm scrambling to get together some Ghosts. I'm aware of the 10 min muta timing, and others I notice are around 13 and 16 minutes (some of these may just be delayed by opponent macro).

There's no need to overreact by getting Thors when they get Mutas - as Erasmus said, marines and 1-2 well-placed turrets are all you need to fend off the initial Muta harass.

The turrets at each base will also help to deter any kind of burrowed Infestor play which I used to do alot, so it's well-worth the investment.

As one caster mentioned recently (can't remember who), in TvZ marine/tank vs ling/bane/muta, it's a fairly even matchup and it depends on who has the better micro / unit placements / decision-making. Your build isn't really going to change much even if he goes ling-infestor, just remember to keep working towards that all-powerful 3/3 Infantry upgrades (most BSGP players stop at 1/1)

What MAY change would be your playstyle - so when you open marine/tank/medivac and you realize he's gone infestor, start doing drops! With infestors he has limited air control and you can terrorize his bases with multi-prong drops and the such and there's nothing much he can do. Snipe queens, kill drones, etc.
I would go as far to say that ling-infestor is an inferior build just because it's not ideal for handling drops. I prefer ling-muta into infestors later on (when marines go 2/2 and above and start getting out of hand)

Quick Comments

breadfan:

[|Erasmus|]

Originally Posted by crAzerk

Your build isn't really going to change much even if he goes ling-infestor, just remember to keep working towards that all-powerful 3/3 Infantry upgrades (most BSGP players stop at 1/1)

What MAY change would be your playstyle - so when you open marine/tank/medivac and you realize he's gone infestor, start doing drops! With infestors he has limited air control and you can terrorize his bases with multi-prong drops and the such and there's nothing much he can do. Snipe queens, kill drones, etc.
I would go as far to say that ling-infestor is an inferior build just because it's not ideal for handling drops. I prefer ling-muta into infestors later on (when marines go 2/2 and above and start getting out of hand)

Drops, and the main change to your unit comp is more tanks. You want a good tank count cause they won't be dead against mutas, and you always need tanks sieged up to cover your marines. Also making a few marauders (since hit squads of 2-3 marauders are wonderful for stimming forward to snipe infestors... also because fast infestor often leads into ultra) is a good idea against that comp.

[ToRPandarine]

Originally Posted by |Erasmus|

Drops, and the main change to your unit comp is more tanks. You want a good tank count cause they won't be dead against mutas, and you always need tanks sieged up to cover your marines. Also making a few marauders (since hit squads of 2-3 marauders are wonderful for stimming forward to snipe infestors... also because fast infestor often leads into ultra) is a good idea against that comp.

O_O I didn't know tht...thn agn...hvnt seen a lot of investor play in the recent days...

[cruxBsK]

Originally Posted by crAzerk

What MAY change would be your playstyle - so when you open marine/tank/medivac and you realize he's gone infestor, start doing drops! With infestors he has limited air control and you can terrorize his bases with multi-prong drops and the such and there's nothing much he can do. Snipe queens, kill drones, etc.

This, actually I believe we played and I did this to you i think we are (1-1) now

Also on this note i think there's a really good post on Teamliquid.net try do a search for timing attacks or something.

I agree with everything that has been said here, I generally scan the Zerg main at around 10 mins to see if there's a Spire coming out, with Protoss i scan around 8min mark to check for robo/other building of what the name eludes me currently.

Generally Vs Toss I like the 1 rax fast expand or reactor rax expand (as the toss can think your going into 1/1/1 and be completely stuffed when you rock up with medivacs and stim marine marauder.

Against Zerg you cant really go past the reactor expand into tank marine with (as stated in the quote from crAzerk multipronged drops) try get double engi bay around the 11-12 miniute mark and double pump those upgrades getting an armory out around halfway point of the first lot of upgrades being done so you can go quickly into 2/2, I feel this is very important for VS toss to (almost a must each game to double pump those upgrades.

[ROOT`iaguz]

What your first scv has to scout.

Vs Zerg

Has he hatch'd first? Can I see his gas timing before my SCV gets chased out by queen/lings?

WHAT THIS MEANS:

A zerg who isn't hatch-firsting is a moron. Be sure to check if he's expanded or not (if he doesn't then he's one basing you and you need to double layer your wall and get bunkers and shit.) and then get reactor hellions out and expand yourself. I'd imagine a zerg this behind just loses to Marauder Hellion play. Not sure, I don't see this very often.

Assuming the zerg has expanded you now want to see if he's taking his gas. A zerg who takes his gas early is a zerg who might be going roaches or fast ling/bane timing. A Zerg who doesn't let you see his gas timing could still be going roaches but just not as fast. There can be subtle variations on your build order depending upon what you see here.

VS TERRAN

Gas timing. Three most popular gas timings in TvT are no gas, 12 gas and 13 gas. You can compare your own gas timing to his when you scout him so you know which one he went.

VS NO GAS

It's either 1 rax CC or he's proxied a rax somewhere for marine/scv all in. Up to you if you want to get a bunker. If you're opening 12 gas 13 rax for a really fast hellion then you can skip the bunker and guard your ramp with a hellion and I think you're ok with good hellion micro.

VS 12 GAS 13 RAX

He's teching fast to hellions and most probably a banshee. 12 gas builds rarely do not incorporate a banshee in my experience. Possibly cloaked.

VS 12 RAX 13 GAS

Impossible to tell exactly, could be anything ranging from reaper expand to cloaked banshee 1/1/1.

Also make sure you see a rax in his base. If not, BUNKER (unless he cc's first) IMMEDIATELY!


VS PROTOSS

For protoss you're scouting 2 things; gas count and unit count and expansion timing (and blocking)

If you don't see a gateway, it's probably been proxied. Surprise ************! Wall off and get a bunker and the zealots do nothing.

A gateway has an animation for when it's building a unit. Learn it. When you scout him you can know if he's making a zealot before his first stalker or sentry. You can also see if he's making a stalker before his Nexus. If he makes neither, make sure to block his expansion with an Engineering Bay (don't let it finish so you can cancel it later!) then prepare for the high likelihood of a Protoss all in response.

You're also looking to see if he hoards Chronoboost (possible 4gate?) If he has 3 pylons in his base (if 2: possible 4 gate. If 3: not 4gate.) and if he gets 2 gas or not. 1 gas means any variation of 1-3 gateway expands or 4 gate. 2 gas Means anything. really, anything. It could be 1 gate sentry expand or 3 gate voidray or phoenixes or robo bay or dark templar or any large amount of really annoying builds. Try to get a look at his natural with your scouting scv later to see if there's a nexus there.

Quick Comments

	Maynarde:	Informative.
	breadfan:	Thanks! Great explanation of how Terran should approach things

[crAzerk]

Iaguz's post is awesome knowledge and if you can really learn and internalize what he has said you will be diamond in no time! DOn't worry about learning everything at once, just learn a couple at a time + you will learn through experience too. Just try not to make the same mistake twice.

Originally Posted by BsK

This, actually I believe we played and I did this to you i think we are (1-1) now

Haha I'm pretty terrible now as you saw, that game I was just totally outplayed by the drops despite having mutas. I think it's more of you improving and me deproving that's why you'll kick my ass anyday now Never liked Shakuras that much as Z either

[breadfan]

Thanks HEAPS all - definitely tons to think about and put into practice. I'm going to have this thread going in another window during laddering.

Originally Posted by |Erasmus|

You should also not be getting thors out at that particular timing unless you are going full mech... marine-tank with a few turrets (1-2 in each base should handle the initial mutas) should hold strong while you determine they are indeed going to keep producing mutas and will need thors.

I've been doing a lot of mech builds in TvZ lately, but really just to increase my repertoire of builds rather than any kind of preference for the playstyle.

[|Erasmus|]

Originally Posted by breadfan

Thanks HEAPS all - definitely tons to think about and put into practice. I'm going to have this thread going in another window during laddering.


I've been doing a lot of mech builds in TvZ lately, but really just to increase my repertoire of builds rather than any kind of preference for the playstyle.

Yeah... if you are doing mech builds, it will obviously be a hellion expand into 3 fact. You do want to time out your armory so you can get two thors out at around 10-11 minutes if you expect mutas. with a thor in each mineral line, they won't have enough mutas to magic box them yet with repair, so you can skip turrets until you see the actual mutas.

Blindly investing into any kind of specific hard counter is usually a bad move.

[ToRSpookToR]

Originally Posted by |Erasmus|

Yeah... if you are doing mech builds, it will obviously be a hellion expand into 3 fact. You do want to time out your armory so you can get two thors out at around 10-11 minutes if you expect mutas. with a thor in each mineral line, they won't have enough mutas to magic box them yet with repair, so you can skip turrets until you see the actual mutas.

Blindly investing into any kind of specific hard counter is usually a bad move.

What i have been doing recently is gasless fe throw down 2 gas as soon as expo goes up at 100 gas get fact and when you have 5 marines (constant when rax is at 100%) get a reactor etc etc attack when +2 mech is done with thors and bf hellions you dont have to reactor expo

[ToRSpartaz]

Brofestor play is still viable, can be hell in the mid to late game with 4 festor hit squads. Always handy to pop out a raven just in all match ups more so fir TvP and TvZ can do some significant damage to the eco with Ravens. Always a fun units against mass blink stalkers (: PDD is just so balanced

[Delraich]

You Tube

You Tube

[souljah]

Terrans have scan.. you dont need to guess what he's going, you just see what he's going...

[ToRSpookToR]

If zerg goes infester you can just take a 3rd without pressuring

[fur]

Iaguz' post is great.

The only thing I'd add is to look for a protoss expo around 6-6:30. If they dont have something by 6 then bunker up hardkore. My win rate V P sky rocketed once I started following this golden rule (of course use this tip in conjunction with iaguz' tips, if you sense a 4gate you'll need bunkers earlier).

[ROOT`iaguz]

The other way to play it is the **** scouting method.

If you don't scout and play a really normal build then you can beat out a lot of things by having the extra cash from not scouting. Here's a example:

A build like this
10 depot
12 rax, 3 marines then reactor
13 gas
15 oc
depot
factory
gas

If you scout on 13 like I normally do then the second gas starts at 20 supply. If you do not scout at all then the second gas starts at about 18. 20 second earlier second gas. That's huge. Scouting or not scouting probably doesn't change the way your opponent may choose to play his game so by conserving minerals everything you have comes out faster, which means more stuff when his bullshit hits.

Alternatively just scout later. Thorzain scouts Zerg and Protoss at ~15 and that's pretty solid. Terran either quicker or just not at all. With super intelligent builds like Thorzain it's a pretty solid idea really.

Quick Comments

TAEdgE:

hi