[Satu]

I just tried this vs a silver league zerg, and it resulted in the most one-sided ZvZ I've ever done. I didnt read this build anywhere, I just made it up on the spot after deciding I wanted upgraded speedlings. Strangely enough, I got the timing correct so that the upgrades coincided with each other. My opponent went for non-upgraded speedling roach with a quick expand. He got decimated.

The idea is to make speedlings which gain the +1 attack upgrade at the same time as the movement speed upgrade. This causes any speedlings to be much weaker and the only two feasible options for the opponent are mass banelings or +1 speed roaches. But with correct micro, both shouldnt be huge problems and should leave you with map control. Any other ground unit combination gets killed off easily.

Build order:
9 overlord
12 extractor
14 spawning pool
@ spawning pool 50% make evolution chamber
@ evolution chamber 100% research melee attack 1
14 drone
@ 100 gas research metabolic boost

After this, 15 two spines
OR
15 queen
depending on opponent's aggression early on. The spines will defend you better but the queen will cause more +1 speedlings to come sooner and be more effective.

If they have put up a quick hatch: Make speedlings and go ******* kill him.
If they made a lot of lings: Make speedlings and go ******* kill him.
If they made a few roaches: Make speedlings and go ******* kill him.
If they put up a heap of spines: Depends how many spines, just have the judgement to see when its a lost cause and that its safer to just drone up.

Avoid choke points and micro around while you take your own expansion and drone up. Get a lair and second gas up after your expansion and tech up to mutas.

Pros:
- Takes down most non-upgraded ground unit builds.
- Very good build vs early expansions, as the zerglings should arrive at their base while they have minimal defence.
- Allows for very safe expansion building time
- Causes zerglings to be much more cost-efficient early on, which adds up after every battle.

Cons:
- 6pooling is easier vs this build due to the very early gas
- There is a small period of time where you will be waiting for spines to come up in order to have some defence. If you know you have less time, zerglings may be a better option, although its preferable to spend the larvae on drones/spines.
- Banelings can weaken your army considerably if you do not micro correctly or push at the correct times.

Discuss the pros and cons of this build and even compare to other builds if you wish. I think its a pretty darn good build for ZvZ. I can post a replay of me winning with this sometime as well.

Replay: http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=145

[elicit]

Don't rush the +1 cuz fast banelings (straight after speed) will probably counter your build very ezily

[Satu]

Originally Posted by elicit

Don't rush the +1 cuz fast banelings (straight after speed) will probably counter your build very ezily

Slow banelings can counter fast speedlings easily. :S

Like I said, if you micro correctly, you'll be fine. At the LEAST, you'll have map control and force your opponent to stay in their base. As well as this, if you tech to mutas, they will be screwed later on for spending all that gas on banelings.

Really, banelings are the best counter to it, but think of it like if you dont do magic box mutas vs thors. You will only get owned if you allow yourself to be owned.

Edit: I noticed how you said "probably", worth a try playing the guessing game, perhaps?

[Benji]

Banelings are too much of a power unit when both players are going speedlings to make this build too viable. Dumping 100 gas on +1 instead of 4 extra banes isn't something I believe will help you out at all.

How have you found the build goes vs banelings with decent control?

[Satu]

Originally Posted by Benji

Banelings are too much of a power unit when both players are going speedlings to make this build too viable. Dumping 100 gas on +1 instead of 4 extra banes isn't something I believe will help you out at all.

How have you found the build goes vs banelings with decent control?

Time for me to be brutally honest.

I dont know.

I've tried this build a few times, and its won most times, especially when my opponent doesn't go for tech, and makes a large ground army. But I dont know how banelings will really effect the build. In a wide open map, you can assume that speedlings will outrun the banelings, but the player with the banes should be able to control them well enough to defend their bases. I doubt it'd be possible to lock down expansions, but it still gives you the cover to expand yourself. Also, since I recommend a few spines, defending vs banes can be easier.

I've also tried this in 2v2s and its worked even better, as you dont need spines.

But the build order above isn't even the most efficient order. Im going to modify it now so that there is no excess gas mined and so that its safer vs rushes/proxies. I think the build is also good vs some protoss openings, I've heard of a +1 speedlings expand build vs protoss, and this was just what I came up with after hearing about a build like that.

The build isn't foolproof, but which build is? It has strengths and weaknesses like any other build, you just need to assess whether you have a good amount of control using this build compared with other builds you can use.

Edit: I also believe the early +1 vs a zerg can always be a benefit. Even if you switch to roaches or banelings, you will be ahead in most battles due to that upgrade. Afterwards I usually get the +1 armor, which really screws them over.

[Seagal]

u said tht u shuld build spines instead of lings so tht u can save larvae for drones but, you lose drones in the making of spines. i cant see tht helping u out economically at all y not just get lings?

[Satu]

Originally Posted by Seagal

u said tht u shuld build spines instead of lings so tht u can save larvae for drones but, you lose drones in the making of spines. i cant see tht helping u out economically at all y not just get lings?

Spines do more damage than lings and last longer. One spine can do the same damage about six lings can do, except its one larvae used, not three. Plus they are cheaper than six lings. The larvae saved can be used on drones.

Economically, lings will hurt you more that early if your opponent attacks.

[elicit]

Do u wanna test out if early banelings counters your build? I'm free atm

[Irys12]

I've done this build as well before, oddly enough it was against a zerg aswell. It works quite well. I did encounter banelings from the oppositon Zerg.

The way i dealt with his banelings is just throw low hp zerglings at the banelings or one to 4 lings at his banelings keeping the baneling count to a minimal. but +1 lings are excellent for getting the map control and some quick snipes on queens and supply line.

[Benji]

Originally Posted by Zergtastic

But the build order above isn't even the most efficient order. Im going to modify it now so that there is no excess gas mined and so that its safer vs rushes/proxies. I think the build is also good vs some protoss openings, I've heard of a +1 speedlings expand build vs protoss, and this was just what I came up with after hearing about a build like that.

Against protoss, it works because you can put pressure on any early expand from them, it also deals well with some 4 gate builds.

The build isn't foolproof, but which build is? It has strengths and weaknesses like any other build, you just need to assess whether you have a good amount of control using this build compared with other builds you can use.

The issue with the build is that Banelings counter speedlings, and all you are doing is investing more into your speedlings, making it harder to swap tech, or transition out of. +1 armour would be more viable as it allows you to survive a baneling explosion with a Ling, which might seem awesome on paper, but when you play using it, it doesnt really help.

You aren't dealing with the Banelings at all. What you should be doing is saying 'I'm opening speedling, what counters this? Banelings, Ok how do I deal with that? Roaches choking a ramp, how do I deal with that?' and so forth.

Edit: I also believe the early +1 vs a zerg can always be a benefit. Even if you switch to roaches or banelings, you will be ahead in most battles due to that upgrade. Afterwards I usually get the +1 armor, which really screws them over.

+1 Melee doesn't help Roaches at all as they require +1 Ranged, and roaches are what most midgame ZvZ's turn into.


I hope I am not sounding harsh, i mean nothing against you at all and I am trying to be really constructive, but perhaps rank up to diamond and try the build there, see how it fares against players that understand what builds counter what?

[Satu]

Originally Posted by Benji

You aren't dealing with the Banelings at all. What you should be doing is saying 'I'm opening speedling, what counters this? Banelings, Ok how do I deal with that? Roaches choking a ramp, how do I deal with that?' and so forth.

+1 Melee doesn't help Roaches at all as they require +1 Ranged, and roaches are what most midgame ZvZ's turn into.

I hope I am not sounding harsh, i mean nothing against you at all and I am trying to be really constructive, but perhaps rank up to diamond and try the build there, see how it fares against players that understand what builds counter what?

To be honest, this is an opening. You can easily transition to roaches or blings, and the +1 melee at the start will help later on, Im sure. Also, I dont know why I didnt notice before roaches need +1 ranged... Im an idiot xD

You dont need to go for +1 speedlings consistently through the game, but it can be pretty darn strong to begin with.

[Ryukku]

i kinda agree with benji on this one. i was once in favor of this build and i still do it occasionally just for fun. but a person who micros his banelings well can handle this build really easily.

ill upload a replay that i played against iNFiRevenent during a KOTH last month. it might help u understand what benji is talking about... especially take note of the part where he morphs his first set of banelings before i got my own. but this build is still definitely viable.

[Satu]

I dont need benji to tell me why anymore.

Skrawl did ling baneling vs me on steppes of war. It was the first game for me of the BSG #2. Ouch.

Anyway, right after I watched a vod of EGMachine teaching a guy ZvZ. Machine had tested ZvZ meticulously with fellow teammate EGIdra, so it was all about as clear and refined as you can get. Im going to change the way I play ZvZ according to that.

I dont see this build as a huge loss either, its more a kind of rolling the dice build as a result of my experimentation. If they go roaches, you can punish them for it. If they go blings, you die.

A better substitute is instead of researching the melee attacks, researching the ranged attack upgrades, even before you have roaches. Of course, this will require speedlings and spine crawlers to save your ass earlygame.

Edit: But because you uploaded that replay, I'll check it out.

[Jaii]

Originally Posted by Benji

Banelings are too much of a power unit when both players are going speedlings to make this build too viable. Dumping 100 gas on +1 instead of 4 extra banes isn't something I believe will help you out at all.

How have you found the build goes vs banelings with decent control?

One base roach. Its think almost cookie-cutter on NA high dia to middle master ZvZ for most maps.

One base roach would also chew up this fast +1 attack build. The roacher only needs to hold his ramp until his own +1 attack finishes, at which point he can roll out, hug walls and crush equal-cost clumps of lings without much trouble. At this point your best hope becomes a base trade (hide your lings and run them in when his roaches are almost at your base. Lings have a much higher DPS than roaches and will win a base trade).

It really stuns me on SEA how common that fast baneling build is in ZvZ. Its really only big trouble on scrap station to a solid 1-base roach opening...

[lomielisk]

Sound like. Fun lol/


but any way. thank about it.