[zeffrin]

Originally Posted by crAzerk

Not taking any sides here but just offering some explanation from a Psych student's perspective (I love to discuss Psych stuff )

**** yeah, the question is, eventually some stimuli must force the observer to reconsider their belief, what does it take to achieve that?

You talk about being beaten by girls straight up, but i'd say this might not be the case, well at least on the ladder if so we don't know. If the girls were out owning face as a regular occurance then this belief wouldn't have been able to form in the first place.

Being a psych student, are you prepared to also discuss the difference in brain development which occurs between male and females which ultimately leads to a difference in spacial skills?

And, from your more educated perspective, would you consider lower spacial skills a possible reason for women on average being less skilled in RTS and FPS games?

And in turn, would the greater communication skills women posses account for at least some of their greater success in MMO games?

Relevant points for discussion from http://www.medicaleducationonline.or...d=46&Itemid=69 below

(3) Cellular connections: while men have more neurons in the cerebral cortex, women have a more developed neuropil, or the space between cell bodies, which contains synapses, dendrites and axons, and allows for communication among neurons .

(4) Corpus callosum: it is reported that a woman's brain has a larger corpus collusum, which means women can transfer data between the right and left hemisphere faster than men. Men tend to be more left brained, while women have greater access to both sides.(however other studies have told a different story).

(6) Language: two areas in the frontal and temporal lobes related to language (the areas of Broca and Wernicke) were significantly larger in women, thus providing a biological reason for women's notorious superiority in language-associated thoughts. For men, language is most often just in the dominant hemisphere (usually the left side), but a larger number of women seem to be able to use both sides for language.

(7) Inferior parietal lobule (IPL): it is a brain region in the cortex, which is significantly larger in men than in women. This area is bilateral and is located just above the level of the ears (parietal cortex). Furthermore, the left side IPL is larger in men than the right side. In women, this asymmetry is reversed, although the difference between left and right sides is not so large as in men. This is the same area which was shown to be larger in the brain of Albert Einstein, as well as in other physicists and mathematicians. So, it seems that IPL's size correlates highly with mental mathematical abilities. Studies have linked the right IPL with the memory involved in understanding and manipulating spatial relationships and the ability to sense relationships between body parts. It is also related to the perception of our own affects or feelings. The left IPL is involved with perception of time and speed, and the ability of mentally rotate 3-D figures .

(9) Limbic size: females, on average, have a larger deep limbic system than males. This gives females several advantages and disadvantages. Due to the larger deep limbic brain women are more in touch with their feelings, they are generally better able to express their feelings than men. They have an increased ability to bond and be connected to others .

[Starcraftmazter]

Eagerly waiting for tossgirl to switch to SC2 and own it up in the GSL.

Quick Comments

deL:

[crAzerk]

Actually, cognitive neuroscience or anything related to the brain is one of my most hated fields in Psychology =X Way too complicated and boring for me haha. But I do understand that it is an exciting new field that is very promising.

Nevertheless, since you've bothered to compose a reply, I am obliged to reciprocate.
Btw, it's 'spatial*' not spacial.

If the girls were out owning face as a regular occurance then this belief wouldn't have been able to form in the first place.

I'm not sure what you are arguing for or commenting about in this paragraph.

are you prepared to also discuss the difference in brain development which occurs between male and females which ultimately leads to a difference in spacial skills?.

I dare not pretend to be an expert regarding the neurological differences between males and females, because tbh I've forgotten most of the specifics (just took the module Biological Psych last semester )

However, from what I do recall, even though studies do show these subtle differences such as those that you've listed, others have also argued that these differences are not significant. For example, just roughly quoting a percentage (may be off) that I recall, when comparing certain spatial / mathematically abilities, while males are better than females (and vice versa) in some aspects, it was only 52-53% of the males who were better.


More importantly, in discussing any such neurological influences (e.g. females have xyz part of their brain larger than males, therefore they have abc ability better), it is a severe flaw to leave out environmental/social influences in the explanation.

To use a simple and well-known example, women are said to be more emotional than men, and some attempts have been made to tie it in to certain brain structure differences.
However, some obvious explanations that can be made for such behaviour is that societal norms do not condone a male being very emotional or expressive. Often, males who behave in such ways may even be ostracized or simply looked badly upon.
Thus, it could be due to societal influences that cause this observed gender difference in emotional expression.


Therefore, I do not find it sufficient to merely discuss neurological differences to explain any gender differences.

And, from your more educated than me but still learning perspective, would you consider higher spacial skills a possible reason for women on average being less skilled in RTS and FPS games?

And in turn, would the greater communication skills women posses account for at least some of their greater success in MMO games?

There is a fundamental flaw in this whole argument, in trying to compare females vs males and trying to show if females are better gamers, etc. The flaw is this - how are you measuring it?
If there were two hypothesis:

1) Males are better than females at gaming
2) Males are not better than females at gaming
(a standard psych paradigm of hypothesis testing)

How do you prove that 1 is true? Is it when there are more males good at gaming than females? Is it when a male beats a female? Is it when the top male player beats a top female player? Is one female being a dominant gamer in her field sufficient to cause the hypothesis to be rejected?

The truth is there isn't really a way to make this comparison, and too many other confounds creep in. For instance, when you say females have some success in MMOs, but a significantly larger sample size of males playing games as compared to females naturally result in a larger volume of male gamers who are better than females, you can't really make any arguments due to these confounding variables.

You can't really support a hypothesis like this because it is not testable, and the only thing that people have ended up doing is making a generalization based on what they observe (which is obviously limited and not representative)

Quick Comments

	Kalikah:
	deL:

[zeffrin]

Great response, concede to most of your points except... if you want a practical example give a girl a street directory and ask her to navigate. If she turns the map chide her, if she's unable to determine left from right without turning the map she has limited spatial skills.

To compare we could easily gather a sample of men and women and test this, with maps, and those questions which show shapes rotated and ask you to identify which one doesn't match etc...

Then there's the fact most of this research has been done with an MRI, not by simple dissection.

However I appreciate you're unwilling to take a hard stance on a complicated, and controversial topic...

Also your suggested criterion are not specific enough... games is a huge range of things... are we talking about chess or word association?

Quick Comments

syfChadMann:

genralisations - fail bro.

[crAzerk]

To compare we could easily gather a sample of men and women and test this, with maps, and those questions which show shapes rotated and ask you to identify which one doesn't match etc...

I'm not saying that there are no gender differences whatsoever. I'm saying that
- While there are some clear gender differences such as spatial perception, many of the purported differences are not significant (e.g. 2-3%)
- Even if these differences occur, does it necessarily tie back to neurological differences? I.e. Just because males perform better on the maps test, is it because their brains are wired to perform better in such tasks or are there other factors?

Then there's the fact most of this research has been done with an MRI, not by simple dissection.

I suppose you mean fMRI, because MRIs are used to look at brain structure, not brain activity
I'm not too familiar with the body of research done with fMRIs and gender differences, so I can't comment on this.

Also your suggested criterion are not specific enough

That is precisely my point. Those questions are all rhetorical in that paragraph.

[Maynarde]

I want this thread closed SO bad. Can't really do it without checking with people though, I'll get back to you all.

[syfChadMann]

Originally Posted by zeffrin

Great response, concede to most of your points except... if you want a practical example give a girl a street directory and ask her to navigate. If she turns the map chide her, if she's unable to determine left from right without turning the map she has limited spatial skills.

To compare we could easily gather a sample of men and women and test this, with maps, and those questions which show shapes rotated and ask you to identify which one doesn't match etc...

Then there's the fact most of this research has been done with an MRI, not by simple dissection.

However I appreciate you're unwilling to take a hard stance on a complicated, and controversial topic...

Also your suggested criterion are not specific enough... games is a huge range of things... are we talking about chess or word association?

What does any of this have to do with you saying - 'Girls don't belong in esports'

There is a place for them.. any other opinion is sexist discrimination.
Promoting the 1% of casters that happen to be girls and giving them more opportunities is simple positive discrimination....

Your argument started off with you saying that women are invading a male domain and your outraged by it... And that they should stick to their Tupperware parties and baby showers...

What have you got to say about such outrageous comments of pure sexism (naive about your discrimination or not).

Quick Comments

	zeffrin:	You actually haven't read anything I wrote you?
	deL:

[syfChadMann]

Originally Posted by Maynarde

I want this thread closed SO bad. Can't really do it without checking with people though, I'll get back to you all.

Close it - its retarded.

[Maynarde]

The Chad has spoken, and so have I.

Everyone join me in celebrating my first ever closed thread as a mod!

Quick Comments

	ToR.Arnor:	THANK YOU
	ToRPandarine:	rep for first thread closure as mod! lol..no srsly..thank you
	Kalikah:	.... maybe we could do a part 2 :P