[sir.psycho]

So I've been having some trouble vs this style every ten or so terrans I verse.
It's essentially an early 2 gas build that looks like a banshee harass. Which kinda forces me to get spores early.

If you are lucky enough to get into the terrans base and see the early armoury then you're in luck.

Now that's IF you scout the tech. The 5 or so times I have ran into this strategy i've been decimated each time and not really seen it coming.

Sorry I don't the exact timing of the attack but it is roughly at 2 thors.

My issue is that I don't seem to be able to amass enough units in time to stop the push....The scvs make the thors really strong spines are useless as they die in 1-2 shots from 2 thors.

Now a few people have said banelinsg to kill the scvs, logical I think BUT hard to pull off.

I guess its a tough one without replays but if anyone has any experience holding this push any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,

Psycho

[SuperHero]

I dont think you need to scout the armoury. if it is a hellion/thor attack then there will probably be 2 or 3 factories off one base. send an overlord in around the 6 minute mark to check the unit composition and amount of factories, if you scout the armoury thats an added bonus.

as far as holding it off goes, roaches are easily your best bet. Thors with reparing SCV's are quite good against roaches which means you will need to run past the hellions and target fire down each individual thor with your roaches all selected. dont just a-move into the terran attack because your roaches will be attacking the hellions while the thors and doing all the damage. move past the hellions (they do very little damage to roaches anyway) and target fire down the thor's. the massive damage from the target fire will negate the repairing SCV's if you one shot the thors.

chuck a few spines up as well incase while you are targeting the thors the hellions run into your mineral lines.

[Eldrid]

I agree with superhero, but i think at the timing this attack comes it can be hard to have enough roaches to 1 2 or even 3 shot a thor, and anymore than this and the SCV's repairing the thors really start to kick in. If you get a thor very low, but in the process lose enough roaches (and therefore DPS) and barely dont kill the first thor, its GG straight away. This is obviously bad!

I think roach/ling/bane is what you need. Banes to smash the SCV's, and chase the helions (only if you have time to get bane speed!)

and roach / ling on the thors. If the terran doesnt focus fire the roaches he will waste thor shots on your lings which is a bonus.

This seems to work for this unit composition in general - the only "maybe" is whether or not youll be able to have bane speed in time.

[RamboLicious]

Bane is definitely what you need.
Yes, for some ppl it's hard to control Banelings, but keep in mind, splitting stuff as Terran vs Banelings is even harder.
Anyway, you can't play zerg good if you can't micro banelings, you will have to practice that, one way or the other

[nard]

Baneling control is impt if u went blings. Blings do well against hellions and scvs... Wipe out as many as u can and move in with Ur lings... Not ideal but that seems to b the tech most zergs go for anyway

[SuperHero]

To one shot a Thor with Roaches you need 27 roaches. to get this amount by the time the attack hits is highly unlikely so your best bet is to get as many as you can and get in a good position for a 2 shot. You should be able to get enough roaches to 2 shot the Thors with reparing SCV's (about 16-19).

[TADivinity]

Yes! I know exactly the build - I noticed it has only popped up in the last couple weeks.

Here's a link to a replay from just a couple days ago so everyone can see what OP is talking about:

http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=466

Some notes on it for those that are too lazy to watch
- Terran puts down 2 gas after 1 barracks. (At 4:00 minutes)
- At 4:40 the first factory goes down
- Creates +1 barracks and +1 factory, attaches 2 tech labs.
- Attacks at 10:00 with a number of marines, ~4 Hellions and 2 Thors - pulling majority of SCV's for repair.


Like the OP, scouting 2 gas made me think it was a 2 port banshee, so I went greedy Spanishiwa (Queen support) and Spores.
I was planning to jump straight to Infestors with upgraded Lings - hence no roaches or banelings.

I should have scouted with my Overlord, but a poor decision on my part I pulled him back. and then he got killed anyway after bad positioning.

Basically, I think the next time us Zergs scout 2 gas starts like that, we now need to expect this Thor all-in, not just banshees.
The second Factory goes down at 5:10. So around this time we need to sack an overlord to see if it is either a starport, second factory, or an unlikely dupe (i.e. he isnt mining gas from the second refinery and was trying to be tricky. Or is stopping you from stealing gas. Or is a retard).

What I am personally going to do to counter this next time:
- At this point, I think the Banelings / lings are the best option. However, it will be tough if the Terran splits his marines well, and works well with his hellions, so that he will kill your army - and after the fight he will either have A) his marines left to kill your shit, or B) his Thors left to kill your shit.
- Therefore, I am thinking some roaches to kill the hellions and tank the damage, and more of a mass of lings would possibly be best.

(I have rarely gone against this all-in and have not yet successfully defended it, so not sure which option would be best. However if you know it is coming, I think you will be fine regardless of what you do)

Overall, you have exactly 10:00 minutes so sort your shit, Mr. Zergs. Gooooodluck.

[HDPhoenix]

I feel this is a Day9-ish moment where he would say, scouting gives you all the info you need. That first pair of lings you have, poke his front and see how many marines he has. In this build, not many. Ok, so he's teching, DRONE HARD!

Poke again at the 6 min mark, maybe 2-4 hellions, nothing too suspicious but wait, all ONLY mineral units? So that leaves either banshees (so get an extra queen, join your hatches, and have a lair to make an overseer if need be for cloak) and get a defensive roach warren for anti-mech. DRONE HARD! Get your 3rd for more larve.

Poke at 8mins, STILL NO EXPANSION? You'll have 2 fully saturated bases vs his 1 base. Just spam units at this point. Get your lings out earlier so you can throw your gas into upgrades like +1 missile and roach speed. Then make those supply expensive roaches when he pushes. Defend it, deny his expansion and you'll starve the terran out =)

Watch Day9's recent dailies on LiquidRet, and watch how GREEDY he can be with drones cause he always has just enough to defend, the rest are all drones.

Good luck ^^

[HDPhoenix]

Oh, another good point to note is lings are great shock absorbers for thor shots. With only 35hp and costing just 1/2 a supply, they can absorb the full 60dmg, essentially 'wasting' 25dmg. A roach wouldn't be so lucky.

Also, use the lings to wrap around the thor with SCVs repairing. Not only does this make it harder for hellions to kill them efficiently, since the SCVs are repairing, they have the same threat as the Thor, so the lings will kill them first, negating the SCV advantage

[sir.psycho]

Cheers for all the help guys! Think next time im gonna go for like 5-8 raoches + mass ling.

I think (and those experienced in the push might agree) is that the problem is unit count. Not so much composition (on zergs part). If you've deviated from knowing exactly what this build is it's very hardto have the lavae to make the untis to defend it...macro hatch much?

[ProAnnn]

Originally Posted by sir.psycho

Cheers for all the help guys! Think next time im gonna go for like 5-8 raoches + mass ling.

I think (and those experienced in the push might agree) is that the problem is unit count. Not so much composition (on zergs part). If you've deviated from knowing exactly what this build is it's very hardto have the lavae to make the untis to defend it...macro hatch much?

React to what you see, more helions = more roach less ling

[HDPhoenix]

Originally Posted by sir.psycho

Cheers for all the help guys! Think next time im gonna go for like 5-8 raoches + mass ling.

I think (and those experienced in the push might agree) is that the problem is unit count. Not so much composition (on zergs part). If you've deviated from knowing exactly what this build is it's very hardto have the lavae to make the untis to defend it...macro hatch much?

Don't mean to nitpick but I believe the issue is active scouting and larve management, rather than pre-set mentalities. Its dangerous to think I'll build X if he goes Y, cause that will limit your thinking and progress. Instead, have a mental checklist, scout and cross out what builds he CAN'T be going for.

Read more below for more elaboration.

+ Show +

Early game, you have 2 sources of scouting, directly with an overlord at the 6min mark or indirectly with lings at the front, counting how many marines he has and/or hellions/marauders.

If your overlord sees 3 barracks, you can cross out all air play and thors, so get a banelings nest (but not banelings yet) and 10-12 lings to poke his front. These lings will either become banelings once he pushes or counter attack his mineral line. If your overlord didnt see anything, just poke his front and count his marines. After a while, you'll get a sense of how many barracks he has by his unit count.

If your overlord spots 2 gas or a 1-1-1 (destiny cloudfist!), you can cross out most infantry pushes so skip the banelings nest. Lings can deal with the odd marine pushes. Its really hard to tell if he is going mech or air, but you DO know he cannot push without a larger army so you can get your 3rd (for larve), get a roach warren, get your lair and 3rd queen. Notice that only costs 2 larve (for RW and Hatch), the rest should be pure drones since he can't push you cause he's teching. Drone hard till roughly the 8min mark, then poke again and see if you can spot which tech path he is going (mech or air).

If mech, get more overlords so you have supply to spam roaches when they move out. Larve management is importantly. Use your 3rd hatch to continue making drones but store larve at your 1st and 2nd. You'll have extra gas so throw that into +1 missiles and roach speed.

If air, get your lair then spire up to deny drops as its often accompanied with MMM styles. If its early 2 port banshees, your ling scouts will notice very very little marines so spend your gas on an earlier lair and get a 3rd queen to join your hatches together.


TL:.DR version: Always land your larve injects. After every larve inject, poke his front to check. Use that info to decide whether to make drones or units.

[Rolex]

Sorry to hijack the OP's thread... there was a similar post and Ive read differing answers as to which unit to target first with your roaches.

Assuming you have a choice to attack either the thor or hellion first, which one would you focus fire?

[ProAnnn]

Originally Posted by Rolex

Sorry to hijack the OP's thread... there was a similar post and Ive read differing answers as to which unit to target first with your roaches.

Assuming you have a choice to attack either the thor or hellion first, which one would you focus fire?

Proly thors since you would be reinforcing with roaches