[Rythos]

I was playing a PvT on Xel'Naga Caverns earlier today and scouted that my opponent had dropped two early barracks - both on 11 supply. I haven't come across this opening (in recent memory at least) and didn't really know how to respond. My first thought was "oh @#$!, this could be a marine/scv all-in", so I built a forge, kept all my probes on minerals and started building cannons at the top of my ramp. I ended up with 3 cannons and 2 zealots out by 5:20, which is when the attack usually hits according to the timings thread on TeamLiquid.net.

My opponent saw me drop the forge and ended up abandoning any plans of an early attack and instead transitioned into a more "standard" play, so the cannons in my main went to waste and I didn't get to find out whether I could have held the all-in or not.

I'm curious to find out whether my response to the 2rax was anywhere near correct. Did I pin my opponent on the right strategy or could it have been something else? Would my defense have held had he gone for the attack? What are your experiences with defending against or executing a 2rax play like that?

Thanks in advance!

[ROOT`iaguz]

well, I play terran but...

Good stutter step controlled stalkers smash basically infinity marines. So 3 gate stalkers into winning the ******* game should help.

[maximusPrime]

I often try to have 2 or 3 zealots at the top of the ramp and then some stalkers backing up behind. The zealots will hold them on the ramp while your stalker just pew pew from behind. Doesn't always work perfect but you will often get a large chunk of them down and then your next round of troops can clean them up.

[nGenLight]

Aggressive stalkers

[porkchop]

Originally Posted by nGenLight

Aggressive stalkers

i see you as the best toss player in SEA or atleast one of the best, u were high ranked in GM for season 2,

now when you say aggressive stalkers, do u mean the 1st stalker taht gets out should go an be aggressive?

what i normally do is rally my 1st stalker to his ramp, and just poke at his depot or marine, which ever i see, and try to force a bunker, or 2 from the terran player, but with 2 rax his marines overflow faster than my stalker count rises, basically i get 3 stalkers with 2 gates, just to try to keep pressue, but appraently it only works if our bases are near, but for maps with cross positions when my both my 2nd an 2rd salker arrives they just get overwhelmed with marines.

and when i pull back and build another gate its too late, i would only have 2 working warpgates with 2 extra stalkers, making my stalker count to 5 or atleast 4, he would have a billion marines, or enough mm to kill me ,

i dont know if i made sense but,, yeah...

help pls? nGenLIGHT

[Yonge]

I play terran...but as they say, whatever ppl do to you that you hate, that's generally a good strategy!

I like early pushes when I play, i find alot of the time, ppl are trying to be ultra creative with their builds and starting teching like crazy so an early push works. The times when i get mauled are when Protoss have zealots as they carve me up and serve my marines to their Xel'Naga altars!

[Stallion]

3 gate u know he isnt going a tech route into banshees so get stalkers and kite the marines to death

[maximusPrime]

I think a 3gate opening is usually a good move against terran regardless. Holds off that early pressure then pump out a few sentreis, expand and then start to tech.

[SnoWPanda]

get a quick second gate and chronoboost stalkers and attack with them, try to kite the marines from his base all the way to yours.

[Rythos]

Thanks for the responses everyone. So now I definitely know that getting a forge and cannons is not the right thing to do :P

I've been using a 3gate robo opening for PvT lately (a la Liquid'Tyler's double forge build), so I guess an easy adjustment for me would just be to skip the robo and get more stalkers out.

As I am only a gold league player and my micro isn't fantastic, is it a safer play for me to sit at home and wait for the attack or get X stalkers and push? Do I need to pull my probes if he brings his scv's?

[PiG]

Originally Posted by Rythos

Thanks for the responses everyone. So now I definitely know that getting a forge and cannons is not the right thing to do :P

I've been using a 3gate robo opening for PvT lately (a la Liquid'Tyler's double forge build), so I guess an easy adjustment for me would just be to skip the robo and get more stalkers out.

As I am only a gold league player and my micro isn't fantastic, is it a safer play for me to sit at home and wait for the attack or get X stalkers and push? Do I need to pull my probes if he brings his scv's?

Anyone can learn to micro! Get a friend/practice partner to do the build on you and practice stuttering your stalkers. Basically you just run back, hit 'S' for stop, once they fire once run back, hit s again, run back, hit s. And so on. Once you're used to it you can just click way back every now and then and macro for a few seconds, then go back to stuttering.

It shouldn't take you too long to get the hang of it!

[crAzerk]

This is incredibly noob to ask but I really don't know. What's 'stutter step stalkers'? I keep seeing this. Does this just mean scoot and shoot? kiting?

Quick Comments

	Stallion:	for not being afraid to ask questions :)
	dippa:	you brave man you

[dennistoo]

drop addtional gate after core. chorno stalkers out. cut probes and resume probe-ing after it's clear.

[Rythos]

Pretty much, crAzerk. Stutter Stepping is the technique where you alternate between move commands and attack (or stop) commands with units that fire in bursts. Done correctly, you can keep your units moving without losing any firing time.

[DeNile]

U know what was going to ask the same thing so u move back a little then attack move to shoot again? Something I need to practice I think I have only just mastered the art of remembering to attack move to most places so u don't move past half there army.

[Rythos]

AFAIK the best method is to right-click the direction you want to move in, then right click on a target so that your fire stays focused. Although if I'm trying to get away from something or if I'm controlling a larger group of units, I sometimes find alternating between move commands and stop commands to be easier/more effective.

[Aean(:]

Originally Posted by Rythos

AFAIK the best method is to right-click the direction you want to move in, then right click on a target so that your fire stays focused. Although if I'm trying to get away from something or if I'm controlling a larger group of units, I sometimes find alternating between move commands and stop commands to be easier/more effective.

in small groups, that is ideal. eg a 2rax bunker rush build would need you to use that when drones are coming at you. stutter step normally and you wont kill anything.

[Fourby]

Im no Pro.. (high diamond) but i have experienced this all in a fair few times on the NA ladder.

What i usually do if i scout it correctly is i get my second gate up ASAP (if you havent already depending how fast u scout it)
then chrono out a sentry and as many stalkers as you can.

So you should have your starting zealot+sentry+ a few stalkers by the time he arrives.. sit a unit on the edge of your ramp so you see him coming..when he comes up chop his army in half (or w/e you feel comfortable engaging) hopefully they will mostly be scv's at the front so you can just rape them off while taking minimal damage from the marines, then back off and wait for him to come up again with his marines.. as you prolly wont have enough energy if he just pushes up as soon as its done you should still be able to kite the marines to death as most of these guys already said ^^

Like I stated I'm not amazingly good but i thought i would just share how i dealt with it multiple times on ladder and just find it easier with 1 sentry to separate his stupid little army

Anyway GL and happy gaming

[pikk0n]

Fourby, what if it's done on a map like Tal Darim with a relatively large choke? 1 sentry isn't really going to do much. I've been abusing this lately on Tal Darim in TvPs but only with 6 scvs rather than my whole mineral line.

[Fourby]

Yes of course the sentry is for ramps that can be blocked by 1 ff.
In cases like tal'darim, you obviously just do what the others here have said and make more stalkers lol

[ToRDeathsFang]

Stutter step sounds incredibly like a drunk guy. I prefer scoot n shoot, Pew pew

[Fourby]

Originally Posted by DeathsFang

Stutter step sounds incredibly like a drunk guy. I prefer scoot n shoot, Pew pew

lol

Anyway, If you wanted someone to practice with I would be glad to help you out with practicing your micro.

Just add me Fourby.580 and pm me whenever I'm on.

[SnoWPanda]

Tyler's 3 Gate Robo is indeed the best possible build to learn as your first build. Its safe and good against everything and you'll learn a lot while doing it from your losses/wins.

Regarding 2rax marines, you should move out with your initial stalkers immediately and try to damage/kill as many marines as you can before terran gets too many. If you stay in your base you will still die even if you have 5-6 stalkers to mass marines+scvs.

[crAzerk]

Wow I'm surprised by the rep on my last comment lol.

Anyway,

Originally Posted by altPiG

Basically you just run back, hit 'S' for stop, once they fire once run back, hit s again, run back, hit s.

Is this the optimal way? The way I do it is run back hit A click, run back hit A click. Because if you run too far back and they stop chasing, pressing S won't make them autoacquire if you're out of range but A click forward will.

[cure]

Originally Posted by crAzerk

Wow I'm surprised by the rep on my last comment lol.

Anyway,

Is this the optimal way? The way I do it is run back hit A click, run back hit A click. Because if you run too far back and they stop chasing, pressing S won't make them autoacquire if you're out of range but A click forward will.
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Yeah i do it the same way as you do, A-clicking ftw.

[rheotron]

My response is usually a 3-gate sentry expand with a few stalkers thrown in for good measure. By the time he gets to your base you should have a couple of sentries/zealots/stalkers and can just forcefield the ramp either to prevent him from getting up their while you warp in more units, or, you can split his army if you think that you can take it.

Either way, I think that the 3-gate sentry expand is pretty strong against this kinda stuff and I don't think that I've ever lost against it with this build. The other good thing is that you can expand relatively safely afterwards due to your high sentry count (providing you didn't lose to many in the initial fight).

Then again, I usually like the play the macro game, I'm guessing this could be altered to include another 2 gates and then do a 6-gate reactionary push or something if you prefer to crush your opponent quickly. I'm assuming this would be a little difficult to pull off though if he's hauled up in his base with 15 or so marines, but I'm just guessing. Do others think that this is a viable strategy?

[SnoWPanda]

^ err i think you got confused buddy. The OP is talking about defending the 2/3 rax marine scv all in which hits way before warp gate finish researching.

[rheotron]

Ah yeah, I see. Sorry about that. Although, he did say that the attack came at 5:20 and it's totally possible to have 1-2 sentries out by then. Forcefield the ramp, get another sentry and try to hold out until warpgates get done? Thanks for pointing out my mistake Snow, lol.

[porkchop]

youtube.com/mrbittertv, i think whiterah explained how to defend that push , what he did was just go standard, chrono a couple of sentris , and get a couple of stalkers, if he gets alot of marines , just include some probes,, normally thats almost an all in so , it screws his tech a bit , just continue to robo and expo, by the 11 minute mark you should have either a couple of colosi /immortal or archons , depending on your build , he will either have , a weak bio army with a couple of tanks ,, or a bigbio ball with no upgrades, dont wait for his 2nd attack , cause , per whiterah , tje 2nd attack with more thn 4 medivacs is very difficult to defend with gateway units, xcept if u have good storms . im bornze , so i always wait for them to attack me ,i forget that timing and i lose, but every time i do the timing push , i win , even against higher league player

[AxSGRiM]

1. Hide that you have a sentry and FF half of his units (if he sees sentry he won't run up)
2. Micro Stalkers from his base to your base using stutterstep.

Pull probes if he brings SCVs

[ROOT`iaguz]

He means, get a bunch of stalkers. Position them aggressively so they can start stutter stepping the marines from as far away from your base as possible. As soon as it looks like you've got him dead, keep warping in stalkers from 1-4 gateways and keep hitting him with stalkers until you get so much each stutter step is too painful for him to continue. And then you win because he did a really ******* stupid build.

[AxSGRiM]

Just keep on getting more stalkers and send them to the opponent base. When they push out keep on abusing the added range of stalkers and just micro back slowly to your base. You would have probably killed a ton of his marines before he even gets to your base.