[PsYkO]

As mentioned, im a master level terran that has no problem with what one would call the "standard" protoss play : 3 gate expand , 1 gate expand, 1 gate 1 robo expand , with the final unit composition being the "standard" death ball : gateway units with colossus.

However recently, i believe i got 0-3ed by aLTtagan who 6 gated me every game.

For each of these games i went my standard opener because i felt comfortable with it and i havent lost to a 4 gate or 1stargate+2 gate opening or immortal push [the last 2 hit at 7 minutes+++]

My opener : Get 2 marines, Fast CC [around 3:15 - 3:30] in base,
Get 2 more Raxes up and bunker at the front so a stalker poke doesnt do as much damage.

Around 5:00 my Second CC is up and running so i send a marine down to scout and i see tagan with a 1 gate expand (i believe)
So i macro up, get upgrades get 2 eng bays 3 bunkers at the front,

Than around 9:30 the push hits,
Having never seen a six gate push (as terran) i was amazed that he had more units than me with my unspent resources being constantly below 200 at the end of the game and his around 700.
Needless to say i got completely crushed by the FF's and zealots even though i stim kited a few forcefields outside my base and my bunkers were completely useless seeing as a few well placed FF will negate repair.

So anyone that knows how to deal with this as terran can give a few solutions?
[his six gate is definitely a response to my FE because if i try cloaked banshee he'll just get a few obs and go 5gate 1 robo and do the same strat anyway]

[mGGSouth]

Tanks! For a long time in the GSL this build was destroying terrans until they started going tanks instead of the standered MMM.

[PsYkO]

wouldnt chargelots completely nullify tanks? and its really hard to scout a pure six gate

[Next_rim]

I play similar style (I'm diamond). This strat was pioneered by Nony in big tournaments, not sure who actually invented it. Thorzain beats this style with regular mmm play, but his drops and micro are stupidly impossible to replicate. Also, look for games against Hasuobs and Adelscott for tips, these P play gateway too, and get rolled every now and then by standrad play with perfect execution.

#1 tip from me - deny map control. This protoss build is designed around chronoing probes to outperform T macro-wise, while having just enough units and production to stop a T push if what. If P doesn't see a push coming, he won't be able to probe comfortably, which will cripple the push.

#2 tip - the build relies heavily on having upgrade advantage. The time to push is when 2:2 is ready. Try to stim-snipe his forges with medivacs. If you delay upgrades, you either make push ineffective, or delay it by a lot.

As correctly mentioned above, hard counter is tanks+terrain. You can't push into T with however many gateways you have, if there is a wall of tanks waiting. The tank play against P gateway was around forever, and P used to get phoenix to lift tanks and roll over bio army. Nothing exactly new, just dig for old replays (late beta - early release times).

[PsYkO]

i appreciate your games reference will check them out
however my opponent doesnt go for upgrades he just steamrolls me with pure non upgraded units
its almost unrealistic how he has alot more units than me even though my macro is close to perfect (Not micro)

[Next_rim]

Can you post some replays? There are 3 variations of the build, and they have completely different economy and timings. 6-gate 0 upgrades is widely used by WhiteRa in ladder, go check out his stream on TL.

All-inish no upgrade 6 gate push is used against zerg a lot. It is a very strong push that a lot of zerg have trouble dealing with. It's like a 4-gate times 10 To get an insight into the build's timings, you can also look for PvZ games. I remember WhiteRa 6-gating Sen. And failing twice.

[PsYkO]

ok ill get back to you when i have some replays, unfortunately i didnt save them and they have already been too late to be categorised under "recent"
thanks for your input though

[pikk0n]

Interesting read. I'll be checking out how to do the proper 6 gate push on TL because I've been having trouble doing it against a terran doing a timing attack off 1 base.... It's not meant to work against 4 rax timings, is it? I'm just a plat so I still get lots of 1 base games.

[PsYkO]

im not sure i havent faced 1 base timing pushes against terran neither do i do 1 base timing pushes as terran but i think you can hold it off with good FF even with a 3 gate expand into 6 gate just make sure you scout it (Leave a probe/stalker behind his natural so you can see the timing off his expansion)

[pikk0n]

I do FF but the army after 8-10 minutes off 4 raxes is stupid large... Also, with the 6 gates, I usually get more zealots. Against that timing push, splitting the army only allows him to kill my zealots. I think I should try double FF (as in FF 2 rows since I usually have 6 sentries). Mass stalkers = insta gg.... LOL! My FFs ALWAYS split the army in half but the zealot heavy composition means that his whole army is still effective.

Thanks for your advice though.

[Next_rim]

The classic 6-gate is not designed to hold off early aggro, it is a build to punish greedy FE terran. It is played with 1 expansion and 1 gas off 1 gate, and you stay on 1 gas for a while. Then you add 5 gates to lineup with your delayed wpgt, warp 2 rounds of units, and go place proxy pylon + push. This build is essentially a 4-gatex10. Comes 3 mins later, but comes with an insane amount of units.

There is also a variation, which is 2-gate into expo, with an option to get robo and 3rd gate to defend 1-base all-ins or fast banshees. It is completely different and pushes only when TC upgrades are up. It is commonly played on 3 gas, because it is not designed to stay on straight gateways all game long. It is supposed to add colossi later, after 6 gates. It is a well-rounded build, can put pressure on T 3rd and get a solid core to take over the map and fight off any drops, as well as mid-game pushes.

The third variation (that I play) is a 2-gate into expo, skipping robo, but getting double forge up. Push is at 120-ish food, when 2:2 is done. It is not a "6" gate, but rather an all-gate. I normally have 10 gateways up on 2 bases, because after 2:2 is done, you make nothing but waves of units. This is a brute force push that is designed to overwhelm T with waves of strong 2:2 units. It has both blink and charge done. This build is very passive and defensive, and relies heavily on map control, because you don't make units until you either see a confirmed push, or decide to push yourself.

There is also a classic 3-gate expo into 3 more gates, which is designed for early game domination, but kind of slips mid game because you make probes, not units. It can be both very defensive, or put early pressure, and is designed against early game timing pushes, like marine tanks, ghost marines, 4-rax etc.

PsYkO,

Judging by your description, it looks like you were up against type 1 6-gate. It is very weak in the beginning, and you can win with an early timing or timed ghost push. If you want to defend against one, get tanks.

To add, PvZ 6-gate is somewhat different. It starts with forge-FE, and gets a timed 6-gate blink stalkers or Tier 1 mix w/o blink at 10 min into zerg natural.

Quick Comments

pikk0n:

Thanks for your descriptions about the toss 6gates. :) Mine is more a 2/2 upgrade push but my BO is not refined. :)

[PsYkO]

ive definitely tried all variations of FE with perfect macro (below 200 gold) , tanks, MMM with 1/1 when he hits, 4 bunkers at expansion, and i still lose,
As soon as he scouts my tanks he just researches chargelots and rolls in for victory

Im interested in the ghost timing you mention though is it worth trying for a 1 base push with that timing?
Because if its 2 base push im afraid he'll hit before i do

[PsYkO]

Looking for more advice just got 6 gated again this time with chargelots and +1 armor upgrade, he hit nme around 10 minutes, my tanks were completely useless.

I know aLTnirvana does this build against terran sometimes

[Daboo]

Hey psyko, have you tried mixing ghosts in your composition? Protoss will think a bit more before he pushes(obviously at the end it comes down to how well your emp hits). It's not very easy to play against ghosts with pure gateway armies. Colossi, make it a lot easier, but he should've been going that tech path to begin with.

But ghost pushes off a expo, are quite brutal to deal with for a protoss who is sitting on gateway units and hoping his forcefields will help him out. And as next_rim mentioned, there is a certain period of time before his six gates kick in where he is very vulnerable. That is the time basically where your hoping terran doesnt stim and run into your natural, because you lose your units and that push is basically delayed or thwarted, so maybe even try a bit of aggression. I normally try to feign aggression against a terran during this period and once the gates kick in I attack.

[PsYkO]

Ah ok yeah i get that, do you know the best way to get an indication of when this gates kick in without using a scan? And what if he adds units slowly to his mix and not put up alot of gates at one time so he can fend off a slight push

[pRoTimber]

poke his army from time to time, be more aggressive than he is, keep him busy, wear him out so that u'll have more time to prepare i guess... always buy time, buy time, buy time

[Daboo]

Yeah just try poking and prodding at the front to see his composition. If you want to see inside his main I dont see any otherway apart from a scan (drops maybe? but at that time will you have dropships?). Maybe try running one stimmed marauder around? But most of the time, the terran tries to pressure and see my composition, followed by a scan of the main, and from there he takes a call on whether he can push or not.

[CCJester]

I think ProTimber and Next Rim kind of nailed it.
Its about map control and aggression.
Ive been experimenting in TvP with a one base push where you expand behind it. Opening is 3rax, two tech labs and make it a fast stim, fast slow push. It seems to crush a heavy probe count protoss, but the aggression alone, even with only unit damage will vastly diminish the ability to make a 6 gate push.
Throwing down a factory and reactor on a stargate during the push and bunkers at the front if the push fails should mean that any counter from him is both smaller and severely behind in tech.

[PsYkO]

I will try more aggression, but im very fearful because getting a small skirmish of scouting and prodding bio forcefielded will add further to the power of his push later on

[OxygeN]

the strength behind his push is the force field + guardian shield. pure zealots and stalkers wont be a problem. so you have a few choices. one you go 3 rax medivac which should all be ready by 8:30 where u can actually start piling the pressure and scouting. 2) you go MKP's ghost timing push which actually also hits at 9:30. 3) use barracks to wall off. eg in shak, u can use 2 barracks and 1 bunker to wall off and place another bunker behind. this will make him force fielding his own zealots should him stop repair on the first one. this is map dependent though.

I like to go 4 rax medivac. if he 6 gates me, ill just use medivac drop micro to use his force fields against himself, and try and snipe guardian shielded sentries. if he is clearly going for 6 rax, i would use my units at around 7+ mins when stim is done, to go snipe the sentries first. depending on micro and positioning, you may kill a few sentries, and force out a whole lot more mana. don't worry about injuring your units. your medivacs will be coming out shortly.

To be honest, I also have issues with the 6 gate, but it doesn't really kill me that often anymore.

so cheers, and good luck!