[Next_rim]

Originally Posted by aztecx

I am curious as to how you hardcounter it.

Mass queens and spines do not do so well against 2-gate-robo pushes. First attack is 7-min, 2nd wave is 10 min. There are two drawbacks though - it doesn't work on large maps and you have to have perfect positioning and micro.

The good thing is that most of the times protoss gets to destroy queens and spinecrawlers, and denies heavy drone production. Macro-wise, the protoss delays hydra/muta and 3rd base as lot, until protoss is comfortable with income to afford hard zerg army counters like colossi or phoenix. Obviously, zerg has double the hard time if tech is roaches.

Another timing push (for bigger maps) is 3(4)-gate agression with a stargate follow-up. Goal is to kill as many queens as possible, while ignoring spine-crawlers and FF-ing lings away. Then protoss pushes with 2-nd wave with a void ray, safely snipes spinecrawler wall from a distance, and contains the zerg until expansion is secured and saturated. It's stupid for zerg to go roach or muta from here, since protoss already has stargate, and most zerg just go for (delayed!) hydra. Protoss is free to expand and get colossi, therefore.

The flip side is delayed expansion. If you fail with micro, or lose the void ray, it's pretty much game after that, since it is very hard to hold of a counter-attack, or get colossi from one-base to handle approaching hydra ball.

[Benji]

Mass queens and spines do not do so well against 2-gate-robo pushes. First attack is 7-min, 2nd wave is 10 min. There are two drawbacks though - it doesn't work on large maps and you have to have perfect positioning and micro.

Transfusing Queens + Spines + Slowlings with a little micro and transfusing will completely roll over that push

The good thing is that most of the times protoss gets to destroy queens and spinecrawlers, and denies heavy drone production. Macro-wise, the protoss delays hydra/muta and 3rd base as lot, until protoss is comfortable with income to afford hard zerg army counters like colossi or phoenix. Obviously, zerg has double the hard time if tech is roaches.

Ive seen 5 gate held off by this build without losing any queens or spines. You must understand if the Zerg doing Spanishiwa's build see's heavy 1 base play, they add spines, queens and slowlings and can hold off most pushes. Also the natural transition out of this is to Ling/Bling, Hydra builds are rare in ZvP now, and Muta builds are even more rare. Roach+Infestor, Roach+Corruptor or some form of Baneling build is the current metagame

Another timing push (for bigger maps) is 3(4)-gate agression with a stargate follow-up. Goal is to kill as many queens as possible, while ignoring spine-crawlers and FF-ing lings away. Then protoss pushes with 2-nd wave with a void ray, safely snipes spinecrawler wall from a distance, and contains the zerg until expansion is secured and saturated. It's stupid for zerg to go roach or muta from here, since protoss already has stargate, and most zerg just go for (delayed!) hydra. Protoss is free to expand and get colossi, therefore.

With 4+ Queens out, I can't see how you're safely sniping anything. If you're 3-4 Gate + Stargate, Zerg add spines and units because you're pretty allin.

I Honestly feel you have never in your life played against this build executed by a player above Plat.

[SiF]

Originally Posted by Benji

I Honestly feel you have never in your life played against this build executed by a player above Plat.

... OUCH That's gotta hurt.

[nirvAnA]

can the op explain abit more about the spanishwa build?

been bz lately and havent been really following the tl scene but from what i can make out of it, its a drone/queen heavy economic build with very late gas?

[pikk0n]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

can the op explain abit more about the spanishwa build?

been bz lately and havent been really following the tl scene but from what i can make out of it, its a drone/queen heavy economic build with very late gas?

Here's the link on TL.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=207017

It's basically getting to 40 supply worth of drones as soon as you can without getting supply blocked before landing all 4 extractors at once. It's a 16 hatch 15 pool opening with 4 queens. If one overlord dies early game, you're kinda fkd. That's why Sif said that you compromise early game map control. Your ling speed will be very much delayed.

On a side note, what impressed me the most about spanishiwa is how he made infestors that much more effective with the worker harrassments. As a gold random player, I wouldn't know as much about the macro but how he used infestors really impressed me and I have to say, it created a boom in the infestor usage in ladder games. TLO is still my favourite player since he was using the infestor bane, ling and ultra strat back in the days of beta before the infestors got the fungal growth buff.

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

ty

[cruxis]

Originally Posted by Skitz

Good build but it isn't magic, it has weaknesses, so mix up your play.

Please name a build that doesn't have weaknesses.

[Benji]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

can the op explain abit more about the spanishwa build?

been bz lately and havent been really following the tl scene but from what i can make out of it, its a drone/queen heavy economic build with very late gas?

In a nutshell, you reach 40 supply with 4 Queens, 32 Drones (Saturation across 2 base), A few spines, massive creep spread and relative safety vs harrass. Its completely solid vs any harrass based style and allins (Slowlings on creep + Transfusing Queens + Spines), but has zero ability to be aggressive. Provided P and T know the timings of the build, they can be super greedy with the only threat to them being slowlings and queens (lol).

[SLCN.Kez]

i think its a great build on smaller maps (ie meta, shattered even xel) but on the newer gsl maps i dont think its as viable as its mostly an anti-early pressure build which most protoss dont do on the bigger maps, but it definitely does have its uses. I dont use it in pvz as much regardless of map, but in zvz i use it as staple now as it negates all the random/gay shit in zvz that i hate a lot. and @ whoever said "its only good because it lets zerg get good econ and free ticket BO into mid game is clearly retarded, ANYTHING that u do as zerg to get into mid game with good econ is going to be a good build order, thats exactly what zerg wants r0fl.
800 point master zerg here btw

[Next_rim]

Transfusing Queens + Spines + Slowlings with a little micro and transfusing will completely roll over that push

If i'm correct in my calc, by min. 7 zerg will have energy for 2 tranfuses on 4 qeens, if he places 1 creep tumor and continues to vomit. With protoss dps of over 180, that's...3 more seconds of a queen's life. . And zerg has no reason to save energy just for transfuses, since without creep highway, any transition will be crippled.

With 4+ Queens out,

You have to kill the queens in order to follow up with void ray, which is viable with correct positioning and FF. If you don't, well...you fail and shouldn't be playing this push style in the first place.

Also the natural transition out of this is to Ling/Bling,

True, i'm seeing this more and more often, but not more common that muta. Most still go roach or hydra balls. First are hard countered by immortals/voids already in the field, and for hydra need to add colossi in time for counter-push.

I Honestly feel you have never in your life played against this build executed by a player above Plat.

Let's not throw skill depreciation arguments, as I have just as much reason to doubt anyone's skill here as you have, unless we play 1v1. I'm in mid masters on EU ladder, and am feeling pretty good about it.

[SLCN.Kez]

@next_rim you dont only get 4 queens out, but the time u hit with ur 7m push standard spanishiwa style would mean u have about 6~7 queens out, and i delay the vomit of my queens slightly and have no problems transfusing until the cows come home. Ive never played on the EU server, but i havnt gone or seen many zergs go muta vs toss in a looooong time, and at 7 min im not sure how many units u plan to have if uve got a void ray out as well... but if it works for you then by all means keep using ur push, the players ur playin against are probs just bad lol

[Benji]

You have to kill the queens in order to follow up with void ray, which is viable with correct positioning and FF. If you don't, well...you fail and shouldn't be playing this push style in the first place.

Its really not that difficult to use queens to kite Gateway units until your slowlings and Spines kill the units. If you ask me, any zerg that loses more than 1 queen to this push has failed somewhere in their micro.

Also, if you do manange to kill their queens, they ARE going to rebuild them, not to mention they may also get a spore crawler if they see you on 1 base still (I assume you're still sitting on 1 base), Because you're obviously going Stargate or DT.

Watch the 12 Weeks video, Spanishiwa plays vs a Protoss at the end who 5 gates, Spanishiwa expanded to his third as his nat was blocked and he still mananged to hold the 5 gate with pure Queens and Slowlings.

[SiF]

Originally Posted by Next_rim

Let's not throw skill depreciation arguments, as I have just as much reason to doubt anyone's skill here as you have, unless we play 1v1. I'm in mid masters on EU ladder, and am feeling pretty good about it.

LOL no you're not - you're a mid-low ranking diamond... If you're going to state facts about a build and you want us to believe you, you could at least state a SIMPLE fact like what your rank is with accuracy.

FAIL = http://www.sc2ranks.com/team/10959501

[Monk]

Originally Posted by Benji

I've never used it, so i'm not exactly an expert on it, i'm sorry I made a post, but if its such bad practice, why are people mixing it into their play (Idra in NASL, Zenio in NASL and GSL)?

As far as I know, Zenio has been using the "no gas" build for a long time, even before Spanishiwa came on the scene. I thought I'd throw that in there. I love Spanishiwa, and I constantly watch his stream/replays. So it's no way hate towards him.

But I mix this up in my own way, getting my mass queens and 3 late gases, I've done the no gas build, and it just leaves you in confusion as to what the opponent is doing. Sure 1 ling at his natural/ramp helps.. But you're pretty much in the blind as to what other people have said; You lose an overlord and the build crumbles. It's definitely not everyone's style of play, and if you can play it successfully, then you're obviously GM. It requires so much experience.

[cruxis]

I saw a variation of it I think at NASL yesterday. You get the usual 100 gas for speedlings, but don't chuck them back in till about 50 food when you take the other 3 as well.

And yeah, the build was around before him. He just put it in writing on TL, so he got the recognition.

[Next_rim]

and at 7 min im not sure how many units u plan to have if uve got a void ray out as well

7 min immortal push is 6 zealots, 4 sentries and 2 immortals. I throw a proxy pylon and reinforce with 4 more units (usually zealots) during the fight. 2nd wave (at 10 min) is usually 2 sentries, 2 more immortals and as many zealots as I can get. Zerg has 4 spines, 4-5 queens and a handful of lings or roaches. Roaches are worse for zerg, obviously.

Void push is much different. It is a regular 6:40 4-gate (initially 4 sentries, 2 zealots, proxy pylon, add more units), you do damage, fall back and guard your pylon. By min 10 you get 1 void ray out and reinforce as much as you can from 4 wpg. Slowly advance with voidray, don't let it die, profit.

@SiF,

Can't see your link from work. If you doubt my ladder position, I'll personally send you a profile screenshot later tonight. Just so you stop pointing fingers.

If you ask me, any zerg that loses more than 1 queen to this push has failed somewhere in their micro.

Or, perhaps, protoss micro is superior. As with all timing pushes, 80% of victory depends on micro. 20% on surprise, frankly. I'll be on the look for pro level replays to add some weight to this discussion. And i'll definitely post a replay as soon as I face a zerg with this build in my games.

As a general side note, these strategies were around in the beta, and have been gradually forgotten for some reason. I've seen a lot of beta day tactics coming back recently, like ling bane, or ling muta, and these timings are no exception.

[SiF]

Don't worry Next_Rim no need for a screen shot - I double checked your SC2SEA profile and your bnet I.D to be sure... and you're the only NextRim in the world so don't worry - noone else is smurfing you.

Here you are - just so you can see it while you're at work ...so strange how your work filter allows SC2SEA and not SC2ranks :P

[SiF]

PS I really don't mind what league you're in - I value opinions from players of all levels.

Just be honest though bro, x.

[Snx`Azz]

Originally Posted by Zergtastic

Step 1. Claim that Spanishiwa isn't that talented

Step 2. Have ONE example of his build failing

Step 3. Wait for the people en mass to agree with you

Unfrotunately, Spanishiwa IS a talented player, he has to be to be able to make that build, execute it correctly and pull off some of the stuff I've seen him do while streaming.

For example, spine crawlers at the front of his base, four queens and a handful of lings. Then he finds out his opponent proxied a pylon in his main, and was fourgating. No problem! Move two spines up, dont lose anything while he tries to attack your queens and completely demolish the push.

Not to mention he 4-0'd TLO.

I cant see a situation where you can claim successfully that he has no talent, those who beat him either do very strong builds that they've thought of carefully vs him or are simply extremely skilled players.

I can provide u with 2-3 replays of him losing zvp to 4 gate.

but then again ur probably talking zvt.

[Snx`Azz]

oh just for protoss out there that vs the spanishwa build do this:

gate gate core 1 zeal 2 stalker wit chrono 2 more stalker +2 more gates, 4 gate in that order on one gas and ull probably win 9/10 times.

since his gas is late unless the map choke is really narrow u can kinda just punish him.

[deL]

Thanks Azz ;D