[ToRDeathsFang]

Recently in the chatbox there have been some....very passionate people having very heated discussions about races and how overpowered one is over the other.

Now to end this i am asking for the opinions of top Masters+ league players for their opinion on race balance, and if a race is inbalanced,what should be nerfed/buffed.

I do not want this to become a troll war *cough* deL *cough* Aean *cough* I want peoples honest opinions.

[inFeZa]

This is already a troll thread.

[UncleTom]

Doesnt very thread have its troll and every dog have its day. The dello oh is that it is much easier to play terran and protoss with there childish mechanics that it is rather laughable "ha ha ha." But it will base it off major tournament resuts. MLG top 4 protoss, protoss, terran, protoss with the best zerg being Idra at 7th. In GSL world championship protoss, terran, terran, protoss. Dreamhack finals Protoss, Protoss.

[HaNdFisH]

Based on recent tournament results it seems to me Protoss is slightly in the lead, closely followed by terran and then zerg trailing behind.

[Xeen]

Originally Posted by HaNdFisH

Based on recent tournament results it seems to me Protoss is slightly in the lead, closely followed by terran and then zerg trailing behind.

This is not answering the OP, though - you've said what race has the most successful players.

Every competitive RTS goes through phases where players of X race do best, usually due to map rotation, new strategies emerging and being adopted en masse, or key players of a race deciding to spontaneously suck heavily (sup FD). And every time, that game's equivalent of bronze league will throw a fit.

ZvZ Assembly wasn't long ago. TvT GSL WC was barely last week. PvP Dreamhack was yesterday - a tournament, I might add, that motherfucking oGsMC was at and all-killed the Zerg players during.

Asking for opinions is going to get you opinionated answers, which are good for trolling if nothing else. Why bother? Look at UncleTom's reply - he even counts Top 4 GSL WC to show that 2 Ps are there behind a TvT finals, but only mentions the PvP finals of Dreamhack, when there were 2P, 1T, 1Z in the semis, the most balanced split you can feasibly get.

[TAEdgE]

If people stopped complaining about imbalance in regarding every little thing in every single matchup, this community would actually be enjoyable to talk to.

Times like this i miss brood war. No matter if it's done in fun, alot of the term imbalance is overused and has basically lost meaning.

You can always be as good as July, MC or MVP, overcome imbalance and improve every aspect of your game.

To answer your question, no race can be pinpointed yet after the infestor change. Come back in a month.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by EdgE

If people stopped complaining about imbalance in regarding every little thing in every single matchup, this community would actually be enjoyable to talk to.

Hear hear.

I've said this in a previous thread, but it seems to me there are a thousand things I could improve in my game before balance enters the picture.

Competency bias

I find it quite interesting how stronger players appear less likely to blame their losses on game balance, especially top level pros (with some exceptions). The majority of balance complaints seem to be generated by lower league players, which strikes me as curious as it seems to me these players have the most room for improvement in their game and would be the least likely to lose due to a genuine balance issue.

For what its worth, a good read (and very relevant to SC2) is the Dunning-Kruger Effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning...3Kruger_effect).

Academic reference: Kruger, Justin; David Dunning (1999). "Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments". Journal of Personality and Social Psychology 77 (6): 1121–34

Random variation

One thing Blizzard have always been careful to do is obtain statistically meaningful data in relation to win/loss ratios in match-ups. The fact that a cluster of a certain race ended up in the finals of XYZ tournament, viewed in isolation, could simply be an artefact of the sample size. The added problem of looking at statistics for very top level players is it is difficult to divorce how much of the performance is explainable by race balance, and how much by freak skill (some people are just plain better than everyone else for a time until another dynamo catches up - think Federer and Nadal). Whilst some say it jokingly, it is probably just plain accurate to describe oGsMC as an "imbalanced" human being!

Blizzard's approach (as explained at blizzcon) actually seems very sensible. They collect a large volume of cross-sectional data and attempt to control for a "player skill" factor. Before someone argues "yes but player skill is inherently affected by balance", the fact that players also play mirror match ups adds a "control" to the data. Before someone says "okay but I'm just bad at mirror match-ups", this can come close to the opposite of a competency bias - it cannot logically be the case that, for example, every zerg player is below average at zvz, so a fair assumption is that a mirror match-up is on average an accurate indicator of absolute "skill" (in the sense that it cannot be affected by game balance because each player has exactly the same options/strategies available to them).

As EdgE alludes to ("come back in a month") the added problem is that a shifting metagame can render last week or month's apparent trend meaningless.

[AvPoker]

Forcefields.

[x5_Potter]

Originally Posted by pokerface

Forcefields.

More tears please.

[ToRDeathsFang]

Thanks to the people that gave good responses. The reason i started this thread was just to convince a few people about X race being overpowered or easier to use.

The way Blizzard copes with race unbalance is looking at win/loss ratios for each match-up from different leagues, they said this at BlizzCon 2010 and the results were actually pretty interesting, BSG league matchup ratios were very different from pro league ratios.

As new stuff are introduced and taken out of the game ratio's will vary. What Blizzard is always aiming for is 50-55% w/l ratio in every league in every matchup. If it gets to 60% then they will immediately nerf/buff a race.

Just because one match-up seems a lot harder to play now, doesn't mean it is overpowered because people are yet to learn how to deal with it.

[ProAnnn]

ZvP is very hard to play for the zerg but still it depends on the caliber of the zerg player. Because of the protoss deathball and 'imba' forcefields, we have been seeing more innovative play from zergs like burrow/baneling drops/mutas instead of going roach hydra and amoving. It may be hard for zerg to play ZvP but it definitely aint imbalanced. Things like these are the ones that make the game grow.

[pXAero]

As we saw by TLO's 6 and 7 Rax games vs Zerg this morning it's pretty easy to see that strategies are still evolving, This pretty much says that the races are balanced, or very close to it, otherwise there would be no need for this kind of innovation for one race to get an advantage over another.

...Although TLO's build kind of shows a lack of scoutability against terran. But then again why should every race have to play exactly the same?

[inFeZa]

Watch the latest state of the game.
They address this topic so well, and compare it to SC1.

[Benji]

Originally Posted by PoisoN

Watch the latest state of the game.
They address this topic so well, and compare it to SC1.

Yet had zero zergs on the podcast, clear and unbias opinion right there.

Every single pro zerg will admit or comment on zerg being the weakest race at the moment. Some are very vocal, others arent, but none are saying the race is fine. Its ONLY Protoss and Terrans saying so.

[ToRDeathsFang]

Originally Posted by Benji

Yet had zero zergs on the podcast, clear and unbias opinion right there.

Every single pro zerg will admit or comment on zerg being the weakest race at the moment. Some are very vocal, others arent, but none are saying the race is fine. Its ONLY Protoss and Terrans saying so.

If zerg is so hard to play and underpowered, then switch! All your problems solved.

[Benji]

Originally Posted by DeathsFang

If zerg is so hard to play and underpowered, then switch! All your problems solved.

I have a terran account that I play when I can, I can't switch race overnight and be as good as I am with a race I spent 8 or so months playing, especially with all the community work I do taking up most of my time.

[TAavanar]

Originally Posted by Benji

I have a terran account that I play when I can, I can't switch race overnight and be as good as I am with a race I spent 8 or so months playing, especially with all the community work I do taking up most of my time.

i think ur play needs more roaches in it then u wont hav any problems with Z being underpowered

[ETL.Santi]

Originally Posted by Benji

Yet had zero zergs on the podcast, clear and unbias opinion right there.

Every single pro zerg will admit or comment on zerg being the weakest race at the moment. Some are very vocal, others arent, but none are saying the race is fine. Its ONLY Protoss and Terrans saying so.

Its ONLY Zerg players that say zerg is weak.

[inFeZa]

Zergs... the women of SC2...

no offence actual women

btw, where the hell is del?

[PapaBigBelly]

No race is imba or OP.

Its just Forcefields which are both IMBA and OVERPOWERED!!!!!!!!!!

[TAcawkballs]

i think Asians are imbalanced.

[TAriiChard]

Originally Posted by TAcawkballs

i think Asians are imbalanced.

I think that we should have a few drinks and make love on SUnday

Originally Posted by Benji

Yet had zero zergs on the podcast, clear and unbias opinion right there.

Every single pro zerg will admit or comment on zerg being the weakest race at the moment. Some are very vocal, others arent, but none are saying the race is fine. Its ONLY Protoss and Terrans saying so.

Time for you to get some lessons from Del. But then again he did say that you were a lost cause....

[Meatex]

I haven't confirmed but I did hear that Fruit Dealer has switched to Terran.
But saying just switch is a bit dumb. All zergs put a lot of time into practicing their race and those who stick with zerg usually find the mechanics more to their preferences. I for one find zerg the most fun while being the most frustrating but I don't want to switch just to win games easily. Where is the fun in massing death ball on 2 base then a-moving to win? :P

[Xeen]

Originally Posted by Meatex

I haven't confirmed but I did hear that Fruit Dealer has switched to Terran.
But saying just switch is a bit dumb. All zergs put a lot of time into practicing their race and those who stick with zerg usually find the mechanics more to their preferences. I for one find zerg the most fun while being the most frustrating but I don't want to switch just to win games easily. Where is the fun in massing death ball on 2 base then a-moving to win? :P

Implying Zerg is anything but massing units and 1aing at opponents' timing pushes. Oh look, gold league generalizations.

Fruitdealer will be weak no matter what race he plays, I expect. Cool was hyped up in BW, then faded off because he doesn't practice hard - the same thing he's admitted about his mentality with SC2.

[ToRDjvillian]

Why did the collosus fall over? Because it was imbalanced XD

I honestly don't think any race is overpowered and it is all about how you react to you opponent. To many forcefields? Go massive units crush it.

I find Zerg to be the easiest race to play once use to it.

[TASponge]

TAEdgE is imba.

[Meatex]

Well tbh Fruit Dealer is kinda busy helping his sick mother so of course he won't have much time to practice.
Protoss and Terran always say that zerg can counter so on and so forth with advanced trickery and high APM techniques all the while sitting in their impregnable bases waiting till they have enough to kill all your army twice over.
The trick is you might have a better army but my army will kill all your buildings first

[BaKaiNu]

^ Does not apply to Terran.

[ZergGirl]

You got two people balancing this game. One plays protoss and the other randoms, be happy we have what we do.

p.s imba 'upgraded marines' and FF.

[Meatex]

Potthead has a point
Protoss is, after all, powered entirely by the tears from zerg players

[PiG]

Zerg isn't underpowered they just involve the most actions. They have such huge potential with their high mobility and ability to tech switch very suddenly. They are the hardest to play well in terms of mechanics, definitely much harder than protoss.

[nGenLight]

Every race has their own advantages and disadvantages. Most imbalance cries stems from players inability to deal with certain strategies/unit compositions, and they feel the resolve to blame it on game balance, rather than take the issue upon themselves. That said, having played all three races myself for a good time, Zerg is definitely the hardest mechanically and the most volatile to just... die.

What Pig said about potential can be also said about Terran, with them having the most efficient "small army" (1-2 Medivac with MM). Being such a harass heavy race, the potential for multitasking is unlimited. E.g with enough APM Terran can produce 10 different drops at 10 different locations at the same time preemptively. It is extremely difficult then to deal with that with an immobile Protoss army that is extremely weak/inefficient when the ball is split - Being mechanically easy has its own relative flaws, such as the inability to make use of all your APM etc. However, having watched someone like ST_Ace play Protoss, you can really see the difference between a 50apm Protoss which just continously adds to a ball and then die to multi-pronged attacks and a 300apm Protoss that just makes perfect decisions... T

The potential for all races is endless - Generally speaking, Zerg: Mechcanically, Terran: Multitasking, Protoss: Unit positioning/control. I think the recent patch and recent maps are definitely bringing balance closer together than it ever was, & I feel they are definitely on the right track. It is better to be positive than to keep calling out Blizzard for doing a crappy job, for a relatively new game I feel the balance level and the feedback taken has already been incredible. However that said, balance talks will always exist because of peoples tendency to blame failure on something not associated to themselves. If it frustrates you that much personally, just switch race, nobody wants to hear whining.

[cure]

I completely agree with Light. The races are pretty balanced now, but zerg does require a higher apm to play at the same level with other races.

[Hyperterminal]

I am a Zerg player and I wouldn't think of switching out to any other race however I do honestly think that Zerg is probably the weakest race of the 3 but not by a lot. I think it comes down to just a couple of things. Zerg really has nothing that compares to the Stalker and Marine in the early game. Both can attack air and ground units and both have an ability upgrade (Blink, Stim, Shields). Other major problem stems from map choice, small ramps are pretty much a killer for any race trying to get through but for Zerg more so. Protoss have major advantages here with Shields and god forbid if they get Psi Storm, they can control people coming in as well as break through with those tools. Terran have Bunkers and Siege Tanks not much needs to be mentioned by this. You can see GSL has tried addressing this with their latest map decisions with more maps having less choke points and more open spaces. I personally believe Protoss Sentries need to be looked at around balance because at the moment many of the major turning points of GSL, MLG and Dreamhack all stemmed from Sentries...

Not a crying session about how Zerg is underpowered because I don't believe we are in a horrible shape just some slight tweaks would even the playing field just a tad.

[nGenLight]

^ People who like to talk about imbalance generally focus on their own race's weakness and the other races' strengths. Instead of doing that maybe start to think about the weakness of your opponent's race, the strength of your race and how you can exploit that just as your opponent has used his race's strength to exploit your race's weakness.

I have so much fun killing Protoss as Terran because I know exactly what I don't want to deal with as Protoss against a Terran opponent.

I do agree that Zerg is probably the weakest of the three race currently, largely because the race itself is underdeveloped from a production standpoint which greatly limits the amount of strategies Zerg can employ against their Terran/Protoss counterparts. During the dark period of Zerg (GSL2 til now), Zergs had relatively no variation in their play, roach/hydra against Protoss, lingblingmuta against Terran, also having to deal with 832742398 different ways to die to an all-in. That said, I believe the current patch has addressed many of these inevitable problems such as map size, counters to the protoss death ball, and thus Zerg have really begun to develop. We are starting to see a a ton of variation to strategies that Zerg players can employ now, top tier Zerg players are no longer as predictable they were, really know how to use their mobility well and are invincible to all-ins. While we do not see Zerg producing results just yet on an international level, as they are playing catchup, I can see a definite rise in Zergs' prominence in the near future.

[Benji]

Originally Posted by nGenLight

^ People who like to talk about imbalance generally focus on their own race's weakness and the other races' strengths. Instead of doing that maybe start to think about the weakness of your opponent's race, the strength of your race and how you can exploit that just as your opponent has used his race's strength to exploit your race's weakness.

I have so much fun killing Protoss as Terran because I know exactly what I don't want to deal with as Protoss against a Terran opponent.

I do agree that Zerg is probably the weakest of the three race currently, largely because the race itself is underdeveloped from a production standpoint which greatly limits the amount of strategies Zerg can employ against their Terran/Protoss counterparts. During the dark period of Zerg (GSL2 til now), Zergs had relatively no variation in their play, roach/hydra against Protoss, lingblingmuta against Terran, also having to deal with 832742398 different ways to die to an all-in. That said, I believe the current patch has addressed many of these inevitable problems such as map size, counters to the protoss death ball, and thus Zerg have really begun to develop. We are starting to see a a ton of variation to strategies that Zerg players can employ now, top tier Zerg players are no longer as predictable they were, really know how to use their mobility well and are invincible to all-ins. While we do not see Zerg producing results just yet on an international level, as they are playing catchup, I can see a definite rise in Zergs' prominence in the near future.

Zerg are doing and have been trying alot of crazy openings to give them a chance in the earlygame so they can actually get ahead in the midgame. Burrowmove Roaches, Ling/Bane in ZvP, Ling Infestor Ultra in ZvT, Ling Bling Roach in ZvT and so forth and YET, all it takes a single Bo3 where you make a few small errors and you get knocked out by some allin.

If zerg plays perfect and actually gets a scout or read on his opponant, the zerg will most likely win, but players make mistakes and Zerg mistakes are in most situations much more devastating.

Not to mention everytime we adapt, Protoss or Terran figure out something even more abusive and difficult to deal with (ie: new gateway heavy armies). Blizzard needs to stop tweaking all the cutesy stuff like Infestors and HT's and start looking at the raw basics, the Marine and Warp Gate mechanics.

[toasti0]

The biggest thing you will notice with the three races is if you wanna play like a pro you just copy there build orders right? This is great if you wanna play pro prot you just 4 gate than a move, if you wanna play like prot terran tlo you just 6 rax or 1 rax 3 factory or whatever and a move. But if you wanna play like pro july zerg you have to ??? oh wait you can't just make exactly 4 gate or 3 rax and push out you have to use your brain and queue each unit as you need them. This makes it impossible to copy a pro zergs strategy because all there strategies are made up on the fly.

The other downside to zerg is it's really bad ability to counter T & P units e.g. mutas are great but get countered by marines the first unit T makes. Ultras are great but get countered by stimed marines, banes are great but get counted by tanks or stimed marines, broadlords are great but get countered by stimed marines or 1 viking, hydras and roaches are great but get counted by marauder marines tanks with stim just incase. Zerg units are many in numbers but paper thin (cept mass roach).

I played zerg for a long long time and in fact fruit dealers wins were the main reason i switched to zerg as a main. After a long long while I decided to play protoss after only playing prot a handful of times my win ratio went up 20% compared to my months and months of zerg practice simply by making death balls 4 gate etc.

Now i'm in the process of playing terran and considering switching to T as a main they are very good if you can drop and multi task but due to the nature of mech being so slow the protoss death ball is far better at mobility being that colossi don't need to seige up to do splash dmg with ff to help out.

Limiting yourself to one race reduces your enjoyment of the game e.g yey another 4 gate game woot. If you wanna be able to say your the best sc2 player you goto play random that's why imo tlo is pro sauce, and if you don't wanna play random and think your race is unbalanced switch you'll have more fun learning a new race strats rather than nerd raging over loses and imba.

[jason]

Originally Posted by toasti0

The biggest thing you will notice with the three races is if you wanna play like a pro you just copy there build orders right? This is great if you wanna play pro prot you just 4 gate than a move, if you wanna play like prot terran tlo you just 6 rax or 1 rax 3 factory or whatever and a move. But if you wanna play like pro july zerg you have to ??? oh wait you can't just make exactly 4 gate or 3 rax and push out you have to use your brain and queue each unit as you need them. This makes it impossible to copy a pro zergs strategy because all there strategies are made up on the fly.

The other downside to zerg is it's really bad ability to counter T & P units e.g. mutas are great but get countered by marines the first unit T makes. Ultras are great but get countered by stimed marines, banes are great but get counted by tanks or stimed marines, broadlords are great but get countered by stimed marines or 1 viking, hydras and roaches are great but get counted by marauder marines tanks with stim just incase. Zerg units are many in numbers but paper thin (cept mass roach).

I played zerg for a long long time and in fact fruit dealers wins were the main reason i switched to zerg as a main. After a long long while I decided to play protoss after only playing prot a handful of times my win ratio went up 20% compared to my months and months of zerg practice simply by making death balls 4 gate etc.

Now i'm in the process of playing terran and considering switching to T as a main they are very good if you can drop and multi task but due to the nature of mech being so slow the protoss death ball is far better at mobility being that colossi don't need to seige up to do splash dmg with ff to help out.

Limiting yourself to one race reduces your enjoyment of the game e.g yey another 4 gate game woot. If you wanna be able to say your the best sc2 player you goto play random that's why imo tlo is pro sauce, and if you don't wanna play random and think your race is unbalanced switch you'll have more fun learning a new race strats rather than nerd raging over loses and imba.

@ ur 1st paragraph
The thing is, you can't copy the micro of those pro players.

And u think all tlo does is 6 rax a move?

plz watch gsl season 1 tlo vs hyperdub.

Have u seen that genius defensive nuke?

Have u seen the genius comeback?

The calm play and brilliant decision making?

Yeah, you can copy their build, but not their micro.

You can copy july's 14 pool 14 hatch, but u can't copy his micro.

You can copy tlo's 6 rax, but u can't copy his marine split against bling.


@ ur 2nd paragraph.

Hold on, which one has more mobility? marines or mutas?

Mutas > go in and kill 5 scvs. Leave

Come back and kill more, leave

A few times of these gave u a total of 10 - 20 scvs kills.

You don't expect to win the game by mutaing all his scvs.

Also, if u go up to his main, then his marines go to their main, but u have more mobility, so u can move straight down to the natural, and his marines takes much more time to get their. EG on metalopolis.

Hold on, if u just a move ur army, ur gonna lose to tank marines marauders.

But if u actually do micro, EG flank him and run in zling to absorb dmage and kill tanks, banelings killing marines, then mutas clearing things up, then actually zerg is quite powerful.

Also, if u make broodlords, u DON't onlymake broodlords, save most of the corruptors and make 3-4 broodlords. 3-4 broodlords literally pwn if unhurt. And how do u make them unhurt? atk marines with them, and the tanks will kill the marines due to splash damage and friendly fire as they will auto target the broodlings. Then corruptors deal with vikings.


You can't just say a unit counters a unit. Cuz I can say marines get countered by roach. Marauders get countered by hydras. Tanks get countered by mutas and thors get countered by zlings, the cheapest and most basic unit in the game, counters one of the strongest mechanic unit of the terran arsenal.

Yeah, multitasking, easier said than done. Can u atk at 3 locations while making units and supply depots and microing ur drops at the same time? Exactly, easier said than done.

Toss is weak in early game, if u let them get a deathball, then it's YOUR FAULT for letting them do so. Put pressure and don't let them take their 3rd.

Exploit your race's mobility. Eg atk on the left and on the right. the terran mech has unsiege, and move to ONE point to deal with it, and they are slow as hell. Then all you have to do is RETREAT! and you would've killed the other undefended point.

[toasti0]

Play prot it has a built in map hack just make a robo with observers and follow around your opponant counting how many units he has so that you can make perfect counter and know when there attacking at all times.

[nGenLight]

*Yawn* at the poster above me, continue to cry about the strengths of other races' without considering how you can abuse their weaknesses.

Benji, you know how I feel about Zerg. Bottom line is I don't think Zerg are underpowered, they are just much more difficult to learn and play. Hence you see relatively little amounts of Zerg players at the lower levels. & the little amounts of players seem to struggle because they don't have the understanding/mechanics of say Edge or Pig which is really required to even the field between Protoss/Terran.

[Benji]

Originally Posted by nGenLight

*Yawn* at the poster above me, continue to cry about the strengths of other races' without considering how you can abuse their weaknesses.

Benji, you know how I feel about Zerg. Bottom line is I don't think Zerg are underpowered, they are just much more difficult to learn and play. Hence you see relatively little amounts of Zerg players at the lower levels. & the little amounts of players seem to struggle because they don't have the understanding/mechanics of say Edge or Pig which is really required to even the field between Protoss/Terran.

I simply can't agree with that. Whats to say that Edge and PiG aren't actually ALOT better than anyone on SEA, its just that their race drags them down to your level?

Look at the top top top level of players, you cannot argue that players like Idra or Nestea are a step below the top protoss or Terrans (Idra's BW ability proves this), Their lack of performance recently shows exactly what the race is like at the moment in the metagame.

Plus, listen to all these Zergs talk about game balance, July, Idra, Nestea have all stated in interviews that Zerg is weak. Hell, even some top P and T players are saying the same thing.

[fur]

Originally Posted by Benji

I simply can't agree with that. Whats to say that Edge and PiG aren't actually ALOT better than anyone on SEA, its just that their race drags them down to your level?

Look at the top top top level of players, you cannot argue that players like Idra or Nestea are a step below the top protoss or Terrans (Idra's BW ability proves this), Their lack of performance recently shows exactly what the race is like at the moment in the metagame.

Plus, listen to all these Zergs talk about game balance, July, Idra, Nestea have all stated in interviews that Zerg is weak. Hell, even some top P and T players are saying the same thing.

Idra is a born whinger. He played the most powerful race in BW and sooked constantly. He loses at the top level because he is a dumb player.

Zerg results haven't been great to-date but the latest patch has clearly boosted their fortunes. The new infestors kick all sorts of ass, toss has had psistorm nerfed, and terran stim timing attacks have been delayed.

[UncleTom]

Originally Posted by fur

Idra is a born whinger. He played the most powerful race in BW and sooked constantly. He loses at the top level because he is a dumb player.

Zerg results haven't been great to-date but the latest patch has clearly boosted their fortunes. The new infestors kick all sorts of ass, toss has had psistorm nerfed, and terran stim timing attacks have been delayed.

I wish it was this easy.

[fur]

Originally Posted by UncleTom

I wish it was this easy.

And I wish it were easy to micro marines against banelings. It's not the games fault my micro is crap.

[nGenLight]

Originally Posted by Benji

I simply can't agree with that. Whats to say that Edge and PiG aren't actually ALOT better than anyone on SEA, its just that their race drags them down to your level?

Look at the top top top level of players, you cannot argue that players like Idra or Nestea are a step below the top protoss or Terrans (Idra's BW ability proves this), Their lack of performance recently shows exactly what the race is like at the moment in the metagame.

Plus, listen to all these Zergs talk about game balance, July, Idra, Nestea have all stated in interviews that Zerg is weak. Hell, even some top P and T players are saying the same thing.

I think you've misunderstood me, I'm not trying to say they are a whole lot better than anyone else on SEA. I'm trying to say that you really need to be at their level to even the playing field between the 3 races simply because Zerg is much harder to learn/play. This is what I'm trying to say:

Protoss/Terran with 50 games played > Zerg with 50 games played
Protoss/Terran with 2000 games played = Zerg with 2000 games played

I have mentioned in many different periods of how weak and limited I felt Zerg was for the last few months. However, with the introduction of this patch and the emergence Zerg's new fondness for developing new strategies even before this patch, I can see Zerg catching up very soon.

Even if Terran/Protoss are figuring out Zerg's new style, at least right now the unpredictability of Zerg allows them the opportunity for initiation/aggression (Baneling busts/Hydra drops) from a traditionally reactionary race. The meta-game is constantly evolving - There were brief periods when Protoss was the weakest race (with the pros like Tester/Genius whining too), but with no patch changes, suddenly became ridiculously strong. I am just saying, give Zerg the chance to do the same, especially with this new patch. But I can understand the cynicism, having felt what it is like to randomly die as Zerg all the time.

[Hyperterminal]

Originally Posted by nGenLight

I think you've misunderstood me, I'm not trying to say they are a whole lot better than anyone else on SEA. I'm trying to say that you really need to be at their level to even the playing field between the 3 races simply because Zerg is much harder to learn/play. This is what I'm trying to say:

Protoss/Terran with 50 games played > Zerg with 50 games played
Protoss/Terran with 2000 games played = Zerg with 2000 games played

I have mentioned in many different periods of how weak and limited I felt Zerg was for the last few months. However, with the introduction of this patch and the emergence Zerg's new fondness for developing new strategies even before this patch, I can see Zerg catching up very soon.

Even if Terran/Protoss are figuring out Zerg's new style, at least right now the unpredictability of Zerg allows them the opportunity for initiation/aggression (Baneling busts/Hydra drops) from a traditionally reactionary race. The meta-game is constantly evolving - There were brief periods when Protoss was the weakest race (with the pros like Tester/Genius whining too), but with no patch changes, suddenly became ridiculously strong. I am just saying, give Zerg the chance to do the same, especially with this new patch. But I can understand the cynicism, having felt what it is like to randomly die as Zerg all the time.

I still don't understand what you mean by the first comment, are you trying to say that only a 2000+ games player would truly know if the Zerg are the weaker race? I think Benji have a very valid comment there, the skill of the player can only do so much with the limitations of the race they are playing.

I am yet to see in any pro Hydra drops play actually work, I have seen it attempted in the last month a couple of times but every time they have been wiped to the floor. Baneling busts have been around since beta its nothing new its just that pro's stopped using it because it didn't work. They are doing it from what I can tell because they really don't have any options left.

I'm not crying Zerg are the worst they get owned all the time because that isn't the case but the odds stack heavily against the Zerg from the outset and as long as you don't make a single mistake and your APM is through the roof etc etc.. then your going to be hurting a lot more.

[TAavanar]

Originally Posted by Hyperterminal

I still don't understand what you mean by the first comment, are you trying to say that only a 2000+ games player would truly know if the Zerg are the weaker race? I think Benji have a very valid comment there, the skill of the player can only do so much with the limitations of the race they are playing.

I am yet to see in any pro Hydra drops play actually work, I have seen it attempted in the last month a couple of times but every time they have been wiped to the floor. Baneling busts have been around since beta its nothing new its just that pro's stopped using it because it didn't work. They are doing it from what I can tell because they really don't have any options left.

I'm not crying Zerg are the worst they get owned all the time because that isn't the case but the odds stack heavily against the Zerg from the outset and as long as you don't make a single mistake and your APM is through the roof etc etc.. then your going to be hurting a lot more.

im pretty sure u r crying over zerg being the worst

[nGenLight]

Originally Posted by Hyperterminal

I still don't understand what you mean by the first comment, are you trying to say that only a 2000+ games player would truly know if the Zerg are the weaker race? I think Benji have a very valid comment there, the skill of the player can only do so much with the limitations of the race they are playing.

I am yet to see in any pro Hydra drops play actually work, I have seen it attempted in the last month a couple of times but every time they have been wiped to the floor. Baneling busts have been around since beta its nothing new its just that pro's stopped using it because it didn't work. They are doing it from what I can tell because they really don't have any options left.

I'm not crying Zerg are the worst they get owned all the time because that isn't the case but the odds stack heavily against the Zerg from the outset and as long as you don't make a single mistake and your APM is through the roof etc etc.. then your going to be hurting a lot more.

Think of it this way, when you begun to play Starcraft, it gave you an option to select difficulty: Normal/Difficult. If you picked Zerg, you have chosen difficult. It is way harder to learn/play but the more experienced/better you get, the "imbalance" starts getting lower and lower.

[Xeen]

Originally Posted by Benji

Look at the top top top level of players, you cannot argue that players like Idra or Nestea are a step below the top protoss or Terrans (Idra's BW ability proves this), Their lack of performance recently shows exactly what the race is like at the moment in the metagame.

The only player that comes even close to MC in terms of skill is MVP. You absolutely can argue that in my opinion. It's no coincidence, to me, that they've won every finals since GSL3 - and I wouldn't favor any Z T or P against them.

There are pretty much no Zerg 'star' players right now, Nestea isn't that visible, though I'm hopeful for Losira.

fur: T was the hardest race to learn in BW, but also the most successful and powerful at pro-level (though players have said with 'perfect play', Z would be best).

[Benji]

Originally Posted by Xeen

The only player that comes even close to MC in terms of skill is MVP. You absolutely can argue that in my opinion. It's no coincidence, to me, that they've won every finals since GSL3 - and I wouldn't favor any Z T or P against them.

There are pretty much no Zerg 'star' players right now, Nestea isn't that visible, though I'm hopeful for Losira.

fur: T was the hardest race to learn in BW, but also the most successful and powerful at pro-level (though players have said with 'perfect play', Z would be best).

Nestea or July could be the greatest SC2 players, yet the fact that they play Zerg is enough that they cannot beat the higher end players like MC or MVP. Balance affects who is the best.

[TAavanar]

Originally Posted by Benji

Nestea or July could be the greatest SC2 players, yet the fact that they play Zerg is enough that they cannot beat the higher end players like MC or MVP. Balance affects who is the best.

it sounds like you really hate zerg and dont enjoy playing them, if you dont enjoy playing them or think they arent the best race then CHANGE RACES!!!!
when this game gets all of its expansions and is somewhat figured out then complain about balance

[Xeen]

Originally Posted by Benji

Nestea or July could be the greatest SC2 players, yet the fact that they play Zerg is enough that they cannot beat the higher end players like MC or MVP. Balance affects who is the best.

No.

I watch the games, and I don't see the same level of control or precision out of these players that MVP and MC show. The reason players like MC and MVP are so good is that on top of their strategies, they have absurd mechanics that let them just do more with any given unit - July is pretty inefficient in his army management (and always has been). Nestea had that kind of play when he won GSL2 (as did MKP, going very far on quite one-dimensional play), which is why he was so cheese-proof and mirror-dominant, but I haven't seen much from him lately.

[fur]

Grass is always greener on the other side.

I played protoss for the first few months. Hated PvP so much that I switched to Terran.

At the time I felt that the Terran bioball was OP, but having had my own bioball incinerated on multiple occasions I no longer feel this way.

Right now I'm feeling a lot of frustration as a Terran dealing with Bling/Infestor play, and have been all inning way more than I'd like because I feel like if I don't have godly control my army gets vaporised.

However, I'm sure if I switched to Zerg, I'd be whinging as much as everyone else who plays that race seems to.

The biggest thing that makes a difference is the map as far as I'm concerned. I feel so much more confident TvZ on reasonably close starts. On maps like Tal Darim, I'm genuinely buggered if I know how I'm supposed to win if we enter the mid game on even terms.

[Makra]

SEA's top 10:
- 5 protoss
- 3 terran
- 2 zerg

Zomg irrefutable proof that toss is OP and zerg UP!!!1!1!!1

[Benji]

How on earth were we to know this? Initially we held out with the hope of balance changes, and now you're telling us we need to get significantly better to simply be on equal ground with the other 2 races?

If i was told that Z was the hardest race, and will require the most work to compete with, I would not have picked it. Now i've got to either tough it out and lose to players whos game knowledge is purely 'how to do an allin' or change race to T or P and spend months trying to get my skill to a level where I am back where I am today.

[fur]

Originally Posted by Benji

How on earth were we to know this? Initially we held out with the hope of balance changes, and now you're telling us we need to get significantly better to simply be on equal ground with the other 2 races?

If i was told that Z was the hardest race, and will require the most work to compete with, I would not have picked it. Now i've got to either tough it out and lose to players whos game knowledge is purely 'how to do an allin' or change race to T or P and spend months trying to get my skill to a level where I am back where I am today.

Zerg was trickier to learn in SC1 as well. Anyone who has played 5 games with each race could tell you zerg was going to be harder and it has nothing to do with balance, it's due to the 'backwards' nature of playing zerg.

Don't like it, don't play them. Switching isn't as hard as you think, especially since you'll already good knowledge of one of the match ups.

Also, given how easy the other races are you should be able to get super1337 really quick? No?

[nGenLight]

I know, it is pretty unfair in that sense.

[pikk0n]

Just a thought as to the reason why you have so many high level protoss players. Maybe it's just by luck that the BETTER starcraft 2 players happened to choose protoss as their preferred race at the start. How many of those high level protoss players made a switch from zerg anyway? I doubt many if any. Zerg may just be the least preferred race. IMO, it's not the race that's underpowered but the players themselves.

[TAEdgE]

Reading some of this makes my head hurt. Guess that happens when Santi posts in a thread.

[dennistoo]

Zerg is not underpowered. They mass 200 foods easily and it just take 1 mistake to get your P/T army wipe out.

[Edrahil]

While people may question the biasness of tyler and geoff's comments, I feel that in the latest SOTG, their analysis of the current state of the zerg v protoss metagame is spot on.

On a side note, I personally feel in 1 month from now (assuming no further patching), the average zerg pro will be taking the average protoss pro to town. Once they learn not to a-move with their infesters and that massing 200/200 with 100 larva and 5kminerals 2kgas is not necessary the best way to play versus protoss.

[Starcraftmazter]

OP thread? **** yeh!


******* protoss man. Two protoss walk into a bar, and they realise it's the finals of a tournament!










And then there's this shitty race






IEM Terran winrates:
vZ: 32%
vP: 17%

TSL Terran winrates:
vZ: 42%
vP: 37%



Terran, the only true race of skill and micro, **** yeh!

[Xeen]

Originally Posted by Starcraftmazter

IEM Terran winrates:
vZ: 32%
vP: 17%

TSL Terran winrates:
vZ: 42%
vP: 37%

GSL WC Terran winrates:
vZ: 62.5%
vP: 61.6%

Wait what the ****? Statistics can vary between leagues based on who plays and who wins? How can this be?!!?

Moron.

[jason]

Originally Posted by Xeen

GSL WC Terran winrates:
vZ: 62.5%
vP: 61.6%

Wait what the ****? Statistics can vary between leagues based on who plays and who wins? How can this be?!!?

Moron.

chill out?

[Starcraftmazter]

Originally Posted by Xeen

GSL WC Terran winrates:

Implying WC was not a retarded tournament where some people could not properly prepare for their opponents.

Originally Posted by EdgE

SCM it's funny to me that i know you actually believe any imbalance towards terran just to inflate your skill level.

Surely inflating my skill level is like inflating a hot air balloon that has reached the boundary of space.

[Edrahil]

Originally Posted by Starcraftmazter

Implying WC was not a retarded tournament where some people could not properly prepare for their opponents.




Surely inflating my skill level is like inflating a hot air balloon that has reached the boundary of space.

Hmm,

Most DPS/cost unit of the game - Marines, most DPS/second ability/unit in the game - EMP from ghosts (vs Protoss).

Small wonder, that in situations where both players prepared just as well, terran has a better winrate.

I think it is obvious from this statistic - GSL Terran Winrates
vT = 50%

That the only fair match up versus Terran.... is Terran.

[dennistoo]

Originally Posted by Edrahil

While people may question the biasness of tyler and geoff's comments, I feel that in the latest SOTG, their analysis of the current state of the zerg v protoss metagame is spot on.

On a side note, I personally feel in 1 month from now (assuming no further patching), the average zerg pro will be taking the average protoss pro to town. Once they learn not to a-move with their infesters and that massing 200/200 with 100 larva and 5kminerals 2kgas is not necessary the best way to play versus protoss.

I agreed. 200 food with few Infestors will melt protoss army easily and if they keep larva count high, the ability to remax zerg army is easier than protoss.

I'm not QQ-ing because my inability a to beat a zerg but even 3Gate expand seems so hard now. A non-macro zerg will drop down roach den and save larva and pushes EVEN without speed upgrade. Even the first wave of roaches failed, 2nd wave of mass speedlings will melt any protoss forces... talking about forcefield imba.. who can drop do a forcefield like MC?

[TAEdgE]

SCM it's funny to me that i know you actually believe any imbalance towards terran just to inflate your skill level.

[Micksterzone]

For the people who say that with zerg, one mistake is all it takes, same with terran and protoss.
A few days ago, i countered someones harass, and eventually got ahead. Anyway, so i got a semi protoss deathball, of about 120 supply at around about 12 minutes, and i went to the watchtower in Metalopolis (which is on top of the ramp). I realised there wa an army there, and because i was 0.5 weconds late of moving down my army which was at least 1.5 times the strength of his, because of his low economy, demolished through me.

[Makra]

Lol@ the protoss keyboard. No need to warp in any units eh?

[Xeen]

Originally Posted by Makra

Lol@ the protoss keyboard. No need to warp in any units eh?

Or use forcefield, apparently.

At least make it accurate yo

[ToRDeathsFang]

Lol its really interesting people's comments.

At December, everyone was complaining about Zerg being OP and dreading facing Zerg, now,in April, it is Protoss which every Zerg is complaining about. In 2 months, after another nerf/buff, Zerg will once again be overpowered.

There is one, just one way to make an RTS game balanced, and that is if there is only one race. Needless to say this isnt going to happen but the point is it's a never-ending cycle now. One race is OP, then another and back to the first race or whatever.

[Eryx]

I don't think that there is an OP race at the moment but I do find that spell casters are becoming more and more the units that determine the battle and the flow of the game and this leads to a skew toward protoss early due to the effectiveness of sentries.

Spanishiwas ZvX style supports the assertion that spell casters are the determining factor as infestors become the main threat and skew battles toward zerg.

Terrans seem to struggle with exploring ghost play because of how gas heavy they making them difficult to mass s and get more standard tech though I'm sure we've all seen some sick emps win games. with Terran but generally you don't see them coming out of a battle better than they maybe should have because their spell casters aren't as directly effective. Perhaps if nuke drop time was reduced or reducible via upgrade we would see some absolutely ridiculous crap come out from them that may piss us off equally as much as some feel with sentries/infestors.

The above is speculation based on observation of high level games rather than my own experience because I'm actually terrible.

[Rhodan]

Man some of the repllies and messages in this thread make my head hurt, though thats always going to come up when people argue about balance.

I don't think you'll find anyone, anywhere that would argue Zerg isn't the hardest of the three races to play, and personally I think its far harder to play than Protoss or Terran, but alot of people seem to have this notion that difficulty to play = imbalance when I really don't see that as being the case. Is it unfair? Absolutely, especially given the difference is quite large, but it isnt imbalanced.

As many people have pointed out, Terran in SC1 was arguably the hardest to play, but has been by far the most successful race while Protoss was the easiest to play yet have been by far the least succesful race. Now, I'm not gonna say SC1 Terran is on the same level as SC2 Zerg, as the difference between Terran and Zerg/Protoss in SC1 is nothing like the difference between SC2 Zerg and Protoss/Terran, but with the current state of the game I can see them following similar paths.

Look at a player like Nestea, who rarely does anything crazy yet has never lost a Bo3 to a protoss or July whose only recent losses were to MC and MVP. Not to mention less players play Zerg, so their representation at a high level is always going to be less than Protoss or Terran which gives them less chance of winning a tournament.

It sucks that Zerg players have to play more and better than other races to reach a competitive level, but once they do they're just as competitive and the race is fine at this stage.

On a related note, in ZvP especially, I think a lot of zergs get discouraged/feel they have undeserved losses (which, I should add, is understandable) because of abilities like forcefield (which I feel is badly designed, but not imbalanced) and graviton beam remove a units ability to micro and generate this helpless feeling. And while 90% of the time theres plenty of things for them to do otherwise, its a huge mental blow as no one wants to feel helpless which leads to anger/whining rather than development of their own play, whether it actually is imbalanced or not.

[nGenLight]

Any legitimate discussion on balance within this thread has already died from the 2nd post of page 4. Hardly witty or funny.

[nirvAnA]

Thread closed at the request of thread starter, and well how it ended up as most OP threads end up.