[ElectricAngel]

For those who may not have seen on twitter... I have been challenged to a race by @fray_frantics

I have excepted this challenge as I feel it's a good motivator to dig in and finally make silver!

It's day 5 now! and it seams to be coming down to race between "cheese" and practice. To me this is a challenge between "good and evil" as I strongly believe that even though "cheese" has its place... it shouldn't bee used all the time if the player wishes to progress on the SC2 ladder!

What blows my mind is the people who strongly believe that "cheese" is "unbeatable" and the reason they can't progress past gold with it is cause the game is broken...

I may be a rookie... but this seams really logical to me... i find it hard to believe it's even debatable...

anyways the race continues!! I do stream some nights if you wish to follow I post everything on twitter @NvAngelx

Thank you

[Fenner]

You can learn the game with cheese well imo.

Bronze players can't even execute a 1 base build with good timings so practicing a 4gate untill you get to the point where you hit the same timings as a pro player is a good way to learn but you need to realize that once you are able to hit those timings there isn't much point in continueing to do it.

Frantics 4gate right now is probably horrible since he's still in Brzone and you can get to masters 4gating every match up.

I think that learning about scoutign and stuff at the lower isn't too useful as you will be learning timings that don't make any sense are becoming irrelevent once you progress. A 4 gate at Bronze may hit at 10 mins but if someone does it well it will hit at 8mins. If you get it in your head that the 4gate hits at that timing then all your reactions will be skewed an incorrect etc. Think its definitely worth just working on mechanics and not thinking about your build/reactions untill you get within a decent timing range of gm/masters playes, maybe 30 seconds?

But of course to practice your mechanics the best you need a plan/build which is why I think cheese is a great way to learn because you have a plan but you don't need to react to anything - can just purely work on your mechanics for executing the cheese to optimal timings... You can also slowly increase the difficulty of the cheese you execute to keep pushing your mechanics, do 1 base cheese, then 1.5 base cheese then 2 base cheese etc untill you're hitting optimal timings.

[Dox]

Originally Posted by fray`fenner

Bronze players can't even execute a 1 base build with good timings

FWIW I coached her with standard play and pretty much all of her games are 3-4 base macro games with 3-3-3 upgrades, Colossi, Storm, Motherships, all that good stuff.

I think the point she was trying to make though, is she's encountered a lot of people recently with the mentality that "cheese is unbeatable" and she's trying to refute that by showing that learning to play standard from day 1 can be just as effective as cheesing your way to X before learning how to play the game properly.

You also suggested that scouting is less important at the lower leagues because timings will differ as you improve... but I disagree, because building those good habits of scouting and learning how to identify what your opponent is going to throw at you based on his economic/infrastructure status is invaluable regardless of what league you're in.

I feel as though the mentality behind "strictly cheese" players is very short sighted. They care about winning here and now, rather than investing in long-term skills. A lot of players say, "I cheesed my way until Silver/Gold/whatever" and then they either: 1) learn how to play macro or 2) burn out because suddenly they don't win as much. They see that next league as their objective and are satisfied when they meet it. But ultimately they're striving and settling for mediocrity, whilst the objective should always be GM (aka "the best"), and every other league between here and there should be viewed only as a stepping stone.

Quick Comments

breadfan:

I agree with you that it's never too early to build good habits!

[syfChadMann]

imo - Cheese has a very important place even at the top of the competitive scene.. if only to be known to have X build in your arsenal to keep someone honest and not super greedy.

Also, I don't think Frantics is *only* cheesing.. he 4gates alot tho.. but I'mma be teaching him a few more openings and builds - see how he goes with standard play too..

gl hf

[ToRSpookToR]

I disagree with what dox thinks she meant(if that makes sense lol), i first came to sc2 with little RTS experience i 3 raxed until i was in gold/plat and it taught me the basic mechanics of the sc2 many other people have come from BW/WC3 so they understand the general mechanics to some degree so cheesing every game might not benefit them as much.

HuT just released videos on Terran scouting and gave a very good overview of what to look for when scouting certain races, a bronze - plat player will have no bloody idea how to react even if they know what they are scouting which i doubt. i agree its good to have good habits i just think that people wont understand what they are seeing.

I never had that mentality when i was "cheesing" my way through the lower leagues hell it was nice winning but i had 0 idea how to play the game 0 idea on the meta game, 3 raxing helped me understand sc2 easier i know its different for toss but when i 3 raxed i tried to keep constant scv production never get supply blocked even if my opponent held it i would either expand or make 2 more rax. However there are people out there with that mentality for sure.

People learn differently and need to learn different things cheesing worked for me it may not work for others

EDIT: doing things like proxy 2 gating cannon rushing is bad though oh and good luck with your race

[Akilos]

I once had the mentality of like cheesing the way up...but you know it felt so wrong hahaha I had to start from scratch got bullied in game for a while too by the guys who ended up helping me get used to macroing. Cheese although it is nice to do it once in a while...kinda gets boring if it gets overused.

[ElectricAngel]

I know cheesing still happens in the higher leagues ... but when it does it's almost "humorous" as it's tied to new players... i think this states the point perfectly... its somewhere to start out... but not to be continued.. oh and I really think some of you don't give bronze leagues players enough credit... there not as derp as you think.. Dox would agree .. I may be in bronze but I can match his 3 gate robo build timing ... so improving on my skills now is a must...

[Dox]

FWIW - http://instagram.com/p/UDja8EBFjK/

Cheese - 0
Macro - 1!

[AuXCoolpuff]

I think a lot of people learned how to play the game by cheesing, (I was one) but it's not impossible to stop. I guess it comes down too scouting it out most of the time.

[syfChadMann]

Time for Part 2 then in the Cheese v Macro battle.

https://twitter.com/NvDox/status/280900205266755584

Me vs Dox, RvR - I cheese 10 games in a row.. and only need to win one.

Will be on soon..
GL HF

I expect to get pumped, but it will be a lot of fun!

[ElectricAngel]

I really want to see this match..

THE PEOPLE DEMAND A TIME/DATE :P

[Jacobe]

hey man with with you. While people do cheese you just need to stick through it and win. Cheese is beatable and can be easy with the right strategy. I wish you luck and hope you do well in your quest.

[ZachFreeman]

I feel like learning to execute a really tight timing when you are a lower league player will help you a lot more than learning how to properly macro / scouting / counters will. You will win a lot more games and can gradually sneak in a few macro games here and there.

[breadfan]

Originally Posted by ZachFreeman

I feel like learning to execute a really tight timing when you are a lower league player will help you a lot more than learning how to properly macro / scouting / counters will. You will win a lot more games and can gradually sneak in a few macro games here and there.

I disagree with this 100%. Winning games does not necessitate improvement.

Focusing on macro is by far the best thing you can do up to and probably beyond if your goal is to improve as quickly and efficiently as possible. You cannot execute a proper timing with poor macro, and often times with cheeses it's the constant reinforcing stream of units that decides the game - you are playing on a razor's edge with army size so early in the game. Especially at low levels of the play it is really easy to hold cheese that is inevitably poorly executed. In Bronze, sure, it can be frustrating facing cheesers and feeling helpless. But once you get your macro down to the point where you are always in a reasonable position to defend said cheese, it becomes really really easy, until much later when players have better unit control, make better decisions about what their units need to be attacking, etc

Cheese has its place in tournament play, and I recommend that even if you are a BSG player, you learn a cheese build if you are entering say, a BSG Open. But use them intelligently - only if you make it to the Bo3 stage, and only if you have a plan ("I want my opponent to know I'm prepared to cheese them so (s)he plays scared" or "I'm going to play super greedy game 1 then cheese game 2 when (s)he feels comfortable"). Cheese needs to be deployed with strategy, not "coz quick games LOL". The reason being, it can help you get wins against people at your level of play. It won't help you increase your level of play by anywhere near the amount that a macro game will.