[mGGDrGooSe]

Sorry if I missed it, but what's the rule on promotions during season? Just stay in current tier and assume all teams will roughly promote at the same rate? Also will there be a limit to how many teams play in each tier?

Quick Comments

syfSoundwave:

curious to know about promotions as well

[syfChadMann]

Originally Posted by mGGDrGooSe

Sorry if I missed it, but what's the rule on promotions during season? Just stay in current tier and assume all teams will roughly promote at the same rate? Also will there be a limit to how many teams play in each tier?

Currently the admins view is: If you are BSG level and promoted to Platinum you will be immediately promoted tiers

Say, for example mGG had a BSG team and P/D team - the transition would be simple, move into the new team.

However, if mGG did not have a P/D team - at the beginning of the season a 'Sister' team would be selected - either by agreement between teams (say TA doesn't have BSG, the few BSG TA players might play with mGG and when mGG promote to P/D they join the TA P/D team) or Admins of the leagues will select a 'sister' team for you. Equally, will players move down if demoted (however I feel this can be by request - if you wish to stay up a tier that should be okay).

This ruling will be in-place for the bottom three tiers.

[FSBenAD]

Originally Posted by fray`ChadMann

Currently the admins view is: If you are BSG level and promoted to Platinum you will be immediately promoted tiers

Say, for example mGG had a BSG team and P/D team - the transition would be simple, move into the new team.

However, if mGG did not have a P/D team - at the beginning of the season a 'Sister' team would be selected - either by agreement between teams (say TA doesn't have BSG, the few BSG TA players might play with mGG and when mGG promote to P/D they join the TA P/D team) or Admins of the leagues will select a 'sister' team for you. Equally, will players move down if demoted (however I feel this can be by request - if you wish to stay up a tier that should be okay).

This ruling will be in-place for the bottom three tiers.

That is a really good rule, I assume that these wouldnt count towards "subsitution" caps, if we are having a limit towards roster changes?

Really excited to see this running again!

Quick Comments

Asrathiel:

A nightmare to admin in reality. Still discussing this.

[breadfan]

Originally Posted by fray`ChadMann

Currently the admins view is: If you are BSG level and promoted to Platinum you will be immediately promoted tiers

Say, for example mGG had a BSG team and P/D team - the transition would be simple, move into the new team.

However, if mGG did not have a P/D team - at the beginning of the season a 'Sister' team would be selected - either by agreement between teams (say TA doesn't have BSG, the few BSG TA players might play with mGG and when mGG promote to P/D they join the TA P/D team) or Admins of the leagues will select a 'sister' team for you. Equally, will players move down if demoted (however I feel this can be by request - if you wish to stay up a tier that should be okay).

This ruling will be in-place for the bottom three tiers.

I like this, but I'd like to see a cutoff point, say midway through the season for transfers between tiers. What we found last year was that after week 6, things were reviewed and week 6 acted as sort of a midway point. I think there's value in retaining a similar type of thing. Many pro sports leagues around the world have a trade deadline, and this would be similar.

Basically, it's my view that if someone has been playing on say, their BSG team in week 1, then earns a promotion to platinum in week 2, they should absolutely move up immediately (either to their own clan's team or another clan's, if their clan doesn't have a team in that tier like Chadmann suggested). Someone who worked hard and contributed to the team's success and earns a promotion right at the tail end of the season however, should be able to stick it out and play the finals (with familiar plat player restrictions we've had previously). Otherwise, players may actually be incentivised to not ladder actively to avoid promotion, to ladder on other servers/smurf accounts, etc and I don't think that's the right way for the lower leagues to be.

You could of course enforce a 1 league grace after the cutoff period - e.g. in the case that someone in BSG who promotes to Plat after the cutoff and remains in the BSG team then promotes to diamond weeks later, they will be forced to move up a tier regardless.

I know that last season, ToR's BSG team which I was in definitely had a really great sense of camaraderie and spirit, and no one who was plat or near plat would have wanted to move up if they had the option.

[FSBenAD]

Originally Posted by ETL.Soundwave

Also, I am throwing an open request to any other team out there.

Soundwave Skype: ssj5gogetenks
ViTaL
Halt (officially Diamond, but only because he doesn't ladder. Has GM MMR and owns the shit out of most GMs he plays.)

The three of us cannot form a team on our own, and we need a place to stay. I am proposing an alliance with any team that will take us to be a part of their roster. United we can become stronger and share the glory of a SEACL win. We are strong, and we will not let you down if you choose to take us under your wing. PM me!

We will definitely be in the same boat when it comes to the Masters tiers, i need to get an idea of exactly the whos and whats, but we currently as of right now only have 3 players above diamond (although i suspect some of our diamonds will be masters by the time this starts).

[ThatGuyDoMo]

Christmas has come early!

However I have one question and forgive me for possibly not reading thoroughly enough but I'm fairly sure it wasn't mentioned, SO, if it starts in February and ends 10 weeks later clearly the second half of the season will be being played after the HotS release.

Will there be a mid season switch to the expansion or will it stay WoL until the next season?

Quick Comments

	mGGNemesis:	If there is a mid season switch to HOTs, the leagues placements for the participants might change too?
	fray`Alpha:	good point sir.... good point

[TidaL]

I'm looking forward to this, but HotS may destroy league???? if no switch

Originally Posted by xGKingBenji

xGKingSatu

haha

[|Erasmus|]

What days/time is this going to run on? It's unfair to commit to a team if I can't actually play....

Quick Comments

ToRSpartaz:

Hopefully not a tuesday man =/

[mGGDrGooSe]

When do you need the teams in by? mGG will be looking to field one each in the BSG/PD and MGM divisions, but will probably hold off announcing until we know scheduling.

Quick Comments

fray`Alpha:

yeah what he said :D

[ToRMcLovin]

Back to the topic of Promotions, say you're at the top of the platinum league and playing in the PD tier, but you promote to diamond and feel as though you can play in B-Class, would that be allowed?

[TAEdarus]

Originally Posted by ToRMcLovin

Back to the topic of Promotions, say you're at the top of the platinum league and playing in the PD tier, but you promote to diamond and feel as though you can play in B-Class, would that be allowed?

I would imagine that, since B class is open to all leagues, you could move into it whenever you wanted?
I'd think it may count as a sub tho.

[VB_WhiplashJC]

Are we allowed to tack on a couple of golds in our PD team?

The restrictions are kinda annoying, why not have all tiers unrestricted but sorted in the same way as the top three? We have a couple of masters level players who can't play for VB

Happy it's back, thanks to the admins and sponsor/s!

[syfChadMann]

On that Bread:
There is currently more discussion into the ruling.
I'm proposing that BSG sign up only and move up when you get to Diamond.. so allow the plats to hang around in tier 5. But anything above plat isn't fair for the league imo. Any feedback that would add to this discussion is welcome.

Quick Comments

breadfan:

I agree there, hope my suggestion helps with some ideas but this sounds a pretty solid solution to me

[mGGDrGooSe]

This dealing with promotions things has the potential to be complicated and confusing. I think it's an adequate assumption to assume that all clans can promote equally with an equal number of practice, and so move about tiers is not necessarily needed. However, I think it would also work to have a re-shuffling mid season. I think any shuffling which takes place more often than that just has a potential for drama, confusion and delays come game night. Having a mid seaons shuffling also means that people who legit move from gold to diamond can be moved.

tl;dr - moving between tiers should occur at a designated time(s), to save confusion and make administration much easier.

[Asrathiel]

Originally Posted by fray`ChadMann

On that Bread:
There is currently more discussion into the ruling.
I'm proposing that BSG sign up only and move up when you get to Diamond.. so allow the plats to hang around in tier 5. But anything above plat isn't fair for the league imo. Any feedback that would add to this discussion is welcome.

As BSG admin I support this format.

If there are many promos which result in players leaving the BSG tier, it will become even more necessary to have alliances between clans to keep the tier going. Encourage inactive BSG players in your clans to come play, too! (That totally doesn't apply to me... shhh... I'll be busy admining )

Originally Posted by mGGDrGooSe

tl;dr - moving between tiers should occur at a designated time(s), to save confusion and make administration much easier.

Yup, if we're going to do that, it definitely needs to be at a fixed point which has been agreed upon beforehand and is known by the team leaders, so they can prepare new players to fill their team if they know they'll lose some at that point

[FSBenAD]

Yeah something simple might be good, I agree in the late stages, it would be a shame to lose a player who played 9 of the games, but then gets promoted and misses the finals.

The only thing I dont want is a BSG division which sees mostly platinum's play, which is how it got a bit last time out. You almost never saw a Bronze and Silver player play most of the time.

So if we do allow promotions and plats to stay, that we have some kind of limitation on the number of plats that can play and defintiely do not allow any plats to be in the Tier 5 teams at sign up time.

Quick Comments

Asrathiel:

I will be working out the details over the next few weeks, definitely send me your suggestions!

[Meatex]

I think for BSG players maybe allow plats to keep playing and Diamonds forced up
But a rule that prevents teams from only using their plats that maybe not laddering to avoid another promotion from being the only players who get to play

I think the BSG teams should be encouraged to have all leagues represented to be able to give Bronze and silver the opportunity to play is important
Perhaps by setting first and second maps as bronze and silver players respectively or by having rule stating that the lineup must have all leagues from BSG represented

Just some ideas ^^;

Quick Comments

Asrathiel:

Yup I'll work out something like that ^_^

[mGGDrGooSe]

It's already an unwritten agreement to try and field at least one bronze and one silver player for bsg cw when possible, before fielding the golds. So if teams are encouraged to do the same through seacl it should work. Not entirely sure how that could be enforced given they wont always be available and most clans are currently struggling for bronze and silver numbers anyway.

Yesterday we had our golds offracing because we simply didnt have the bronze or silvers to field, so that might be another way to handle it if things get dire. Again a pain to admin. Fact is BSG and PD will always be hardest to admin because some people improve faster than others and there will always be people looking to take advantage.

[Zealo]

last season we learned:
- 5 divisions is not enough (which is a good thing, a ton of people are interested in competitive SC2 leagues like this one)

- there are barely enough BSGPD players/teams interested to fill one division, yet alone 2.

what has caused the admins to believe the above 2 facts are no longer true?

Quick Comments

	mGGDrGooSe:	mGG accepts your challenge.
	TtSYF.tRoy:	I agree with Zealo, i wasnt hear for last SEACL but i dont think there are enough for 2 P/D leagues, maybe 3 Gm/M ?
	breadfan:	there's only one PD league
	TCPLemminks:	As admin of the last P/D division, we had ~12 teams sign up for P/D. We went on for 2 weeks after T3,T2 and T1 finished

[ToR.Arnor]

Originally Posted by Zealo

last season we learned:
- 5 divisions is not enough (which is a good thing, a ton of people are interested in competitive SC2 leagues like this one)

- there are barely enough BSGPD players/teams interested to fill one division, yet alone 2.

what has caused the admins to believe the above 2 facts are no longer true?

Umm I dont know what league you were playing in, But BSG league last season had the perfect amount of teams (10-11) and PD league actually had too many that teams were having to play 2 times a week

[Zealo]

Originally Posted by ToR.Arnor

Umm I dont know what league you were playing in, But BSG league last season had the perfect amount of teams (10-11) and PD league actually had too many that teams were having to play 2 times a week

i don't know what league you were playing in, but...

tier 5 of SEACL2 contained every BSGP team. by the end of the season people had improved(as you would hope) to the point that it was essentially a GPD competition. there was a huge gap between the strongest tier 5 team, and the weakest tier 4 team, tier 4 starting out as 95% diamond/masters and finishing pretty much only masters (with a couple of GMs). only an all plat team filled this gap at signups, but this was (at the admins' request i believe) merged with another tier 5 team and re split into 2 equal teams.

to suggest that there were enough PD and BSG teams to overfill 2 divisions is simply false.

[TAEdarus]

Originally Posted by Zealo

i don't know what league you were playing in, but...

tier 5 of SEACL2 contained every BSGP team. by the end of the season people had improved(as you would hope) to the point that it was essentially a GPD competition. there was a huge gap between the strongest tier 5 team, and the weakest tier 4 team, tier 4 starting out as 95% diamond/masters and finishing pretty much only masters (with a couple of GMs). only an all plat team filled this gap at signups, but this was (at the admins' request i believe) merged with another tier 5 team and re split into 2 equal teams.

to suggest that there were enough PD and BSG teams to overfill 2 divisions is simply false.

http://www.sc2sea.com/showthread.php?t=3257 - Tier 4 Official Thread
http://www.sc2sea.com/showthread.php?t=4278 - Tier 5 Playoff Thread


I dunno man, felt like there was plenty to divvy them into seperate tiers to me :S

Quick Comments

	UHF:	those are from 2 different seasons
	TAminimat:	No

[Zealo]

Originally Posted by TAEdarus

http://www.sc2sea.com/showthread.php?t=3257 - Tier 4 Official Thread
http://www.sc2sea.com/showthread.php?t=4278 - Tier 5 Playoff Thread


I dunno man, felt like there was plenty to divvy them into seperate tiers to me :S

i don't understand what you're trying to say, but i get the strong impression that you didn't read the post you quoted

[Zealo]

are you calling last season's tier 4 PD and last season's tier 5 BSG?

Quick Comments

ToR.Arnor:

yes

[ToR.Arnor]

^Good point Edarus

Well how about we wait to see how many teams sign up?

If there arent enough teams to warrant holding separate leagues we'll consider running it together

@UHF you are wrong they are from the same season

Quick Comments

UHF:

appologies, the titles & naming conventions are very misleading

[TAminimat]

Woops, in regards to my quick comment on Edarus's post it should be: 'No I think deL just messed up the title'.

Quick Comments

xpaperclip:

The title was fine, Tier 4 was "SEA League 1" (and T5 was "League 2"), it didn't mean "SEACL Season 1".

[SLCN.NXZ]

I'm just curious, don't want to turn this into a full blown format drama but can we not just have the "pro" tier be the one with the pro teams and allow for them to play for their respective clans in lower tiers? Like I think tier 1 will only have pro teams in it... right? If this isn't the case ignore this post. If it is, however, I feel like if the two tiers never have to play each other then wouldn't it create better clan rivalries if everyone in the clan could play?

Just bringing this up because it is very unlikely for there to be an aLt team if we can't have our players on pro teams.

Quick Comments

Zealo:

i like this idea for the most part

[SLCN.NXZ]

Originally Posted by aLtNXZ

I'm just curious, don't want to turn this into a full blown format drama but can we not just have the "pro" tier be the one with the pro teams and allow for them to play for their respective clans in lower tiers? Like I think tier 1 will only have pro teams in it... right? If this isn't the case ignore this post. If it is, however, I feel like if the two tiers never have to play each other then wouldn't it create better clan rivalries if everyone in the clan could play?

Just bringing this up because it is very unlikely for there to be an aLt team if we can't have our players on pro teams.

Bringing this back up because as far as I know, apart from scheduling conflicts, there is no reason why this can't be the case (to my knowlege at least). Just wanted to make sure this doesn't get buried as like spartaz said in chat, it doesn't seem right that the reigning champions don't play at all. Thanks for your time!

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

hello cutie

[TAEdarus]

Originally Posted by ToR.Arnor

Well how about we wait to see how many teams sign up?

Promote that man!

Originally Posted by TAminimat

Woops, in regards to my quick comment on Edarus's post it should be: 'No I think deL just messed up the title'.

What xpaperclip said. Dont worry, YOU DUN GOOD MAN.

[ToRSpookToR]

Originally Posted by Baldie

*fray`ChadMann: *
Pretty low... Even from Spook.. -_-

i hope you know i wasn't serious.... i love Baldie. I don't know how you could actually think i was serious...

Quick Comments

	ROOTPetraeus:	<3 spooky
	syfChadMann:	Ditto brohan.. ;)

[ToRSpookToR]

what zealo i was in Tier 4 last SEACL and i played 2 games a week there were that many teams i dont understand your point could you be more clear perhaps?

[Zealo]

Originally Posted by Zealo

last season we learned:
- 5 divisions is not enough (which is a good thing, a ton of people are interested in competitive SC2 leagues like this one)

- there are barely enough BSGPD players/teams interested to fill one division, yet alone 2.

what has caused the admins to believe the above 2 facts are no longer true?

there is nothing unclear about that, we had to play 2 games a week because they put 16 teams in a division instead of making 2 divisions of 8 teams each.


Tier 4 was not a platinum/diamond league, arnor saying it was makes me believe he was paying way less attention to SEACL2 than i would have liked from someone planning SEACL3

[ToRSpookToR]

It was initially... people improved.

[Zealo]

Originally Posted by ToRSpook

It was initially... people improved.

http://www.sc2sea.com/showthread.php?t=3257

those are the leagues of people in tier at sign ups, not a single team had a plat or below in their top 5 players. 14/16 teams had at least one master player in their roster at sign up.

saying it was a plat/diamond league is simply false

[ToRSpookToR]

if you have diamonds in your team why would a plat be in your "top 5" from what i can see it mainly is a PD league with a few masters.

[Heady]

Originally Posted by ToRSpook

if you have diamonds in your team why would a plat be in your "top 5" from what i can see it mainly is a PD league with a few masters.

The thread shows it was 20% Masters players at the start (36/185 players).

[ToRSpookToR]

fuuuu zealo i dont even know what you are talking about you make no sense.

[TAEdarus]

It wasn't STRICTLY BSG / PD for the tiers but it DID end up working out that way.
http://www.sc2sea.com/showthread.php?t=4000
Thats week 9, in the title it has .... The masters being overflow from the above tier.

In ESSENCE the tiers were treated as "the BSG tier" or "the PD" tier... However look at T5 then, at the start of the season there was an ALL-PLATINUM team (clearly not BSG, yes) but they did end up mixing up their T5 and T4 teams to even it more out with the overwhelming dominance of BSG players in tier 5

At the end of the season... was dominated by Plats, some Diamonds and BSG players... this was the evolution of the tier as the season progressed (11 weeks?). It was decided we would allow Platinums at the start and not force it to be pure BSG, with Plat player restrictions. This evolved later into a restriction on Diamonds also given the good progress of the players, we didn't want to punish them for improving and then moving into a league with Master players.


While T4 and T5 were NOT strictly BSG / PD (yes, i'm agreeing with you here) it did have that air about it and was (by the vast majority of the community) treated as such.

[Meatex]

seeing as sign ups are not until January 21st I think we should keep sign ups out of the thread till later especially as players may improve or pros switch teams (PiG to iM?? :P)

Additionally specifics about how many tiers etc can be figured out towards the end of January when it will be much clearer for everyone involved ^.~

Quick Comments

Zealo:

wise words

[ToR.Arnor]

Originally Posted by FaDeMeatex

seeing as sign ups are not until January 21st I think we should keep sign ups out of the thread till later especially as players may improve or pros switch teams (PiG to iM?? :P)

Additionally specifics about how many tiers etc can be figured out towards the end of January when it will be much clearer for everyone involved ^.~

This is the thread for sign ups and should be used as such, ill be creating a new thread for people to voice their opinions and ask admins to move all the 'discussion' posts in this thread, my internet is just failing hard right now! (on my phone atm)

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

I created this thread for you and moved the posts Arnor!

[calcifer19]

will this seacl 3 will be interrupted by incoming HOTS in march?? 10 weeks length people will forgot WOL style and play like HOTS ?

[nGenLight]

People being promoted/improving because of the forced competition of SEACL is one of the greatest problems we can have. =]

Work hard at a solution guys!

[SLCN.Kez]

"If a player disconnects between 2.00 and 9.59 game time, the game can be replayed if the other player agrees."
Please change this rule, it's the most frustrating thing in the world when your opponent derps and says "Nah ill take the win thanks mate" when you might have clearly been ahead. Please make it admin ruling, or replayed. Whilst I understand this is more work for the admins, I believe it very necessary

Quick Comments

	Snx.Mufasa:	agreed
	x5.Revenant:	Better listen to this lad before he makes a depression in your head.

[ThatGuyDoMo]

Just raising this question again because it doesn't seem to have been answered and I, along with several others have already asked, but how is SEACL going to deal with HotS?

Since HotS comes out more or less midway through the season I can see some problems arising,

Firstly if we don't switch to HotS is it not possible that people would become disinterested in WoL and therefore SEACL and just abandon it for HotS?

On the reversal of that, if we did switch straight to hots on release certain players may not be able to play because they might not be able to afford the game on release and are then stuck with WoL for another couple of weeks, which seems a bit unfair to me.

On that note, switching straight into HotS also gives an unfair advantage to those whom have been playing the beta (such as myself, although I'm quite terrible) since the first round of invites, I could see this leading to unpredictable upsets which may not be popular.

Hopefully those conclusions sound reasonable, I know I personally would prefer the switch into HotS but after a 2 week grace period or so to allow people to catch up with the game / actually have a chance to buy it.

Just my 2 cents, hope it made sense, but ultimately it is up to you admin ladz to run it all.


Understand if the reason you guys haven't responded is because you are still thinking of how you are going to deal with the release.

Thanks!

P.S. derp if you guys have responded to this and I just couldn't find the response T_T

[ToR.Arnor]

Hey Guys

as I mentioned in the other post I havent had stable internet at home since the 23rd (not to mention Ive spent the last 3 days with my family, you know being xmas and all) Ill be adding replies to questions in this post, periodically throughout the day

Originally Posted by |Erasmus|

What days/time is this going to run on? It's unfair to commit to a team if I can't actually play....

Ill be consulting the admins of wT weekly to see whether they will continue to run the weeklies during SEACL or if they will be putting them on hold until after the league if wT continues it will likely be Tuesday and Thursday, if its put on hold then Monday and Tuesdays

Originally Posted by VB_WhiplashJC

Are we allowed to tack on a couple of golds in our PD team?

The restrictions are kinda annoying, why not have all tiers unrestricted but sorted in the same way as the top three? We have a couple of masters level players who can't play for VB

Happy it's back, thanks to the admins and sponsor/s!

I'll answer all the T4 and T5 questions here(or try to) Theres still discussion amongst admins regarding the lower tiers regarding the final ruling, but at this stage T5 will be for BSG players (at sign up) and if a player is promoted to Plat he/she can still play T4 will be for PD (and yes even G if you wish) players promoted to M can still play

Originally Posted by calcifer19

will this seacl 3 will be interrupted by incoming HOTS in march?? 10 weeks length people will forgot WOL style and play like HOTS ?

We will be sticking with WoL, particularly with lower tiers there no guarantee that everyone will have access to the latest expansion, also it will be extremely weird to change the tournament game mid-season

Originally Posted by Kez

"If a player disconnects between 2.00 and 9.59 game time, the game can be replayed if the other player agrees."
Please change this rule, it's the most frustrating thing in the world when your opponent derps and says "Nah ill take the win thanks mate" when you might have clearly been ahead. Please make it admin ruling, or replayed. Whilst I understand this is more work for the admins, I believe it very necessary

As you said it makes an admins job alot harder, I agree to rule is a pain, but I will add "admin has the right to overrule if the situation warrants it" I think thats fair?

Originally Posted by aLtNXZ

Bringing this back up because as far as I know, apart from scheduling conflicts, there is no reason why this can't be the case (to my knowlege at least). Just wanted to make sure this doesn't get buried as like spartaz said in chat, it doesn't seem right that the reigning champions don't play at all. Thanks for your time!

Mostly to create a sense of even competition, and allowing people that wouldnt ordinarily get a chance to play the opportunity to, Take TA for instance, if their "Pro Team" member play in T2 as well thats Mafia, Light, deth, Rossi, EdgE, Fourby (and probably a few others im not thinking of right now) that means a long list of players while extremely skilled would not get a chance to represent their clan, TA has already submitted 2 GM Teams without their "Pro team" members, this is what we were trying to achieve with this league.

Also depending on who signs up it would be possible for 1-2 "Clan" teams to be given T1 status

Reigning champs could be given t1 status (considering aLt could sign up a team with PiG and iaguz...)

Quick Comments

SLCN.NXZ:

Yeah I understand what you mean. We don't really want tier 1 with different lineups as tier 2!

[FSBenAD]

I know there is a lot mroe discussion etc going on, but as a clan captain my biggest worrries are:

a) Mid tournament promotions causing chaos by either
1 - leaving me with no players / forcing me to try and find new players
2 - leaving those promoted players with no where to go, because my higher tier side already has 12 players
3 - having lots of platinums playing in BSG, lots of Masters play in PD.

It is a real tricky problem to solve, however it seems like we can probably fix this if we are consistent between the tiers...

a) All clans either enter a side in each Tier, or nominate a sister clan to take their players for promotion
b) At the end registration date, all player leagues are checked and the players are moved between divisions based on this.
c) We do the same thing as the halfwaypoint and allow clans to add new players to refill their roster (Some kind of limit though)
d) These players are allowed to increase a team past 12 players (Be really awful for promotions to mean they cant play at all anymore)
e) There is a restriction on the number of Platinums who can play in a match in Tier 5 and the same restriction on Masters in Tier 4.

This doesnt sound too horrible to admin (and I'll be helping admining, so Im forcing me to do this work), doesnt punish players for being promoted (which WILL happen, I know almost every FS player was promoted last SEACL, and most players in Tier 5 were in general, some from gold to diamond!)

[Zealo]

benAD: what happens if the bottom 3 tiers have different numbers of teams enter them?

[FSBenAD]

I dont see the big problem in allowing a team to have multiple lower tier sister teams, to help take on promotions. Within reason of course.

As long as all of this is declared before we lock down the teams for the tiers etc it should be all fine. And a masters/gm from tier 4, could play from tier 1 to tier 3 (ok they probably wont play tier 1, due to not being good enough, but rules wise its not a problem...)

[breadfan]

Originally Posted by FSBenAD

I dont see the big problem in allowing a team to have multiple lower tier sister teams, to help take on promotions. Within reason of course.

As long as all of this is declared before we lock down the teams for the tiers etc it should be all fine. And a masters/gm from tier 4, could play from tier 1 to tier 3 (ok they probably wont play tier 1, due to not being good enough, but rules wise its not a problem...)

What are the advantages of having it all declared before? Why not just let players organise themselves? They can approach teams in a higher tier if their clan doesn't have one. For this, I like the idea of having set movement weeks (midway through the season) when everyone moves. Some people may have some friends they want to play with, while other people might have some people that they would prefer not to play with. On the other side of the coin, some teams may be left shorthanded and in desperate need of a numbers boost because their roster has had people leave mid season, while others may struggle getting everyone a game because the team is so full of players (ToR BSG ended up with 17 or 18 players last season).

[FSBenAD]

I definitely agree with the set move date, its much easier on admins and captains and its what ive suggest too.

The rules already state we are limiting sides to 12 players, so we wont have the problem of too many players in a team (I hope players dont miss out though, but with only 4 players playing a week, having a huge roster means minimal game time anyway)

As an admin and an opposite clan captain, I just like knowing where the partnerships are, where players should move to. I also like to have that setup before hand so I dont have to worry about finding my players spots.

In the majority of cases wouldnt people just go where their clan mates are anyway?

I guess its not too big of a deal for myself, my clan will have teams in each tier, either directly, or in a partnership at the M/GM level, so I defer here to people who would be in the situation where their clan has no team in a higher tier (that is Tier 1-3 for players hitting masters, and tier 4 for players hitting platinum, when we do the mandatory player promotion)

[breadfan]

Originally Posted by FSBenAD

I definitely agree with the set move date, its much easier on admins and captains and its what ive suggest too.

The rules already state we are limiting sides to 12 players, so we wont have the problem of too many players in a team (I hope players dont miss out though, but with only 4 players playing a week, having a huge roster means minimal game time anyway)

As an admin and an opposite clan captain, I just like knowing where the partnerships are, where players should move to. I also like to have that setup before hand so I don't have to worry about finding my players spots.

In the majority of cases wouldnt people just go where their clan mates are anyway?

I guess its not too big of a deal for myself, my clan will have teams in each tier, either directly, or in a partnership at the M/GM level, so I defer here to people who would be in the situation where their clan has no team in a higher tier (that is Tier 1-3 for players hitting masters, and tier 4 for players hitting platinum, when we do the mandatory player promotion)

Yeah well I understand this is for people who don't have a clan in the above tier to go into.

To your point, it seems like there needs to be considerations for overflow - If ToR PD has 12 players and 2 BSG players promote, there's no room for them. Can the cap be exceeded, and if so by how many spaces? Maybe inactive players need to be deactivated from the roster first to make space? Either way, I think that players should stay with their clans so long as their clan has a team for them in a tier.

I don't think not knowing at the start of the season who promoted players might go to really causes any great loss. I mean, you still don't know which of your players will promote (though you may have some idea who is close). All you do is have an admin take note of which teams have less than 12 active players, and those are the available teams for promoted lower leaguers with no clan team to move into. It might look something like

ToR Tier 4 has 10 players (2 spaces available)
FS Tier 4 has 11 players (1 space available)
TA Tier 4 has 9 players (3 spaces available)

Players would then be free to talk to the teams and decide where they need to go. Maybe ToR desperately wants a protoss, while FS needs terrans. Maybe TA doesn't care about races, they play the strategy angle and want a Terran sniper. This makes the whole movement period a bit more interesting. But most of all, as I said, I think it is simple and easy. If you're concerned about players not having a new home, then admins can just step in at the end of the movement period and assign people.

One concern with this is that you are putting people into an established team, and maybe the team leader wants to play his clanmates rather than this new addition. So maybe there needs to be some kind of rule like the transfer needs to play in at least X number of the remaining games (unless they declare themselves unavailable) to ensure that people are getting a fair go.

[FSBenAD]

Id hate to be told I have to play certain players and I hate to reduce to opportunites for my own players.... I'd much prefer we just always allowed promoted players to join their clan in the higher leagues. Thats my own viewport there anyway.

The reason I am so excited for the SEACL is to give my FS players a chance for competitive play on an ongoing basis and build team spirit.

Anyway my overall objective here, is not to have people miss out, I want all clans and players to be able to play.

[breadfan]

Originally Posted by FSBenAD

Id hate to be told I have to play certain players and I hate to reduce to opportunites for my own players.... I'd much prefer we just always allowed promoted players to join their clan in the higher leagues. Thats my own viewport there anyway.

The reason I am so excited for the SEACL is to give my FS players a chance for competitive play on an ongoing basis and build team spirit.

Anyway my overall objective here, is not to have people miss out, I want all clans and players to be able to play.

No you misunderstand me, that is just for players who have joined another team (or potentially, just the players that admins select a team for them). As I said, players should always join their clan team if there is one available to join. Clans not playing members as frequently as others is an internal issue. But someone who just wants to get in and play some games but can't because the team he gets put in plays their own clan's players instead of him is a bit lame. That is only to help outsiders not get shafted

[FSBenAD]

I understand what your saying, but this is a clan/team league, not about individuals. Why should the clan take the hit because someone doesnt want to join one? I dont want to have to take a player who has no interest in my clan, especially if that means I have to play them X times.

I am definitely all for as many people playing as possible though, and I've already been open to "borrowing" players for SEACL if it makes sense and add something to FS. And we are talking to clans about partnering up so both clans ahve full teams in all tiers. I dont feel anything should be enforced upon clans though.

Also just a thankyou for the back and forth, nice and civil, lots of good ideas

Quick Comments

breadfan:

part of the assignment process could be admin talks to team captains though - easy fix

[nirvAnA]

re: hots
hots is a big problem, when it comes out EVERYONE will drop WoL and move on to it. if you don't believe that, well you probably have not gone through a blizzard expansion phase . then they will be forced to play in the SEAL while disinterested in WoL.So I think we have to finish by march 12, a transition into hots will make no sense as it will be a totally different game. We can have a hots league later or perhaps even postpone it to hots? idk! Right now seal can have its WoL league and start on jan 12, have it over 2 months. 8 teams in a league. speed league style!

re: playoffs
I dislike playoffs for tier1 since the other tiers aren't having it. it will drag the season longer then it should be, it should be a separate cup or something and the league should crown the LEAGUE champion. last seasons league day finale was super climatic and it was done in a league style so any argument that a league format is not exciting goes out of the window.

re: promotions
i feel players promoted should not be forced out of their teams. Due diligence must be carried out by admins to ensure teams aren't submitting bullshit ranks for their players disguised as lower league players. divinity playing in Tier 4 last season as a gm against gpds and "surprisingly" having a 14-0 record is what comes to mind. also because the old format was based on "overall rank" of the team . anyway players should not be punished for improving and be allowed to stay in their team. a very strict check is needed at the start with possible punishments for the team for submitting fake ranks. i.e none of this "but im bronze on SEA" (but masters on NA) bs

Quick Comments

	ThatGuyDoMo:	I share your feelings on hots, hope something gets sorted out
	breadfan:	I think that SC2 has different expansion phases than Diablo/WoW, but yes still going to have people playing HotS only

[FSBenAD]

If we are serious about getting it done early, before HotS, then we need to lock down rules, format, time etc right now.. Like by the end of the weekend.

It takes time to get a team together in the lower leagues, as the start time is key.

[ToR.Arnor]

Thanks for your feedback Rules have been locked in based on them


12.Tier 5 will be restricted to BSG players at sign ups, Players promoted to platinum are allowed to continue playing, those promoted to Diamond will need to be granted special consideration by T5 Admins, you MUST informs Admins of All Promotions/Demotions and Race Changes.

13.Tier 4 will be restricted to PD players at sign ups, Players promoted to Masters will need to be granted special consideration by T4 Admins, you MUST informs Admins of All Promotions/Demotions and Race Changes. A T4 Team May apply for special consideration if they wish to sign up with a Masters Player

14.Teams will be allowed to add up to 3 players to their roster throughout the season (provided they do not exceed the team size restriction), a NEW player entering the team will in ineligble to participate in the league for the first 48 hours after being approved by Admin

15.The League will use "xGTL" format, 4x Best of 3 matches on predetermined maps, and an Ace Match (best of 3) if Teams are tied 2-2, Teams must use a different player or each of the 1st four sets, Teams may choose to reuse a player from the 1st four sets in the Ace Match

16.Points will be awarded as follows: Major Win (4-0, 3-1) 3 Points, Minor Win (3-2) 2 Points, Minor Loss (2-3) 1 Point, Major Loss (1-3, 0-4) 0 Points, No Result 0 Points

[eCKo`Tazerenix]

Originally Posted by ToR.Arnor

Thanks for your feedback Rules have been locked in based on them

15.The League will use "xGTL" format, 4x Best of 3 matches on predetermined maps, and an Ace Match (best of 3) if Teams are tied 2-2, Teams must use a different player or each of the 1st four sets, Teams may choose to reuse a player from the 1st four sets in the Ace Match

Is the format closed for discussion?

In my opinion the GSTL style is a more fun league format and allows for more viewer enjoyment and strategy with snipers, all-kills and reverse all-kills etc.

[FSBenAD]

Originally Posted by Tazerenix

Is the format closed for discussion?

In my opinion the GSTL style is a more fun league format and allows for more viewer enjoyment and strategy with snipers, all-kills and reverse all-kills etc.

And I assume we are still going with tier 4 and 5 being GSTL like in the opening post of http://www.sc2sea.com/showthread.php?t=6692?

[ToRSpartaz]

Originally Posted by Tazerenix

Is the format closed for discussion?

In my opinion the GSTL style is a more fun league format and allows for more viewer enjoyment and strategy with snipers, all-kills and reverse all-kills etc.

I still am with this idea, it is cool, because it is more engaging from a viewer perspective, I know from watching Clan Wars and such that are outside of ToR, that the series coming from GSTL all kill can really set the tone for spectators.

Quick Comments

	asdfSchnitzel:	SEACL = Proleague, SEACC = GSTL AK
	syntox:	Yeah GSTL format is much more exciting then a bunch of guys playing bo3's individually

[fray`Alpha]

Originally Posted by Av.ToRSpartaz

I still am with this idea, it is cool, because it is more engaging from a viewer perspective, I know from watching Clan Wars and such that are outside of ToR, that the series coming from GSTL all kill can really set the tone for spectators.

I (and the M/GM of mGG) also agree that GSTL all kill style is a much better/funner experience both for the gamers and the viewers. Also just as importantly I think its much better and a sense of team, you achieve together you fail together. as opposed to the 4 bo3's which feel very independent, not much team interaction going there, no strategy in which player to put in when.

Just my thoughts.

Quick Comments

	Zealo:	100% agree
	Thrasher:	+1

[VB_WhiplashJC]

A major loss should be more points than a walkover.

[ToR.Arnor]

Originally Posted by ToRSchnitzel

SEACL = Proleague, SEACC = GSTL AK

This is my opinion too

Although it isnt confirm, we're looking at running SEACC #2 a couple months after the release of HotS!

Originally Posted by FSBenAD

And I assume we are still going with tier 4 and 5 being GSTL like in the opening post of http://www.sc2sea.com/showthread.php?t=6692?

yeah I should amend the rules specifying which Tiers that refers to T_T

[VB_WhiplashJC]

How would one apply for special consideration to sign up with a masters player in T4?

[ToR.Arnor]

Originally Posted by VB_WhiplashJC

How would one apply for special consideration to sign up with a masters player in T4?

give us a reason why they should be included\

e.g. only made masters 2 weeks ago, masters but has been inactive for 3 months, etc etc

[VB_WhiplashJC]

Well, this is what I've got for our roster at the moment:

VBBoony.760
VBRandomness.557
Everion.975
VBRhuubarb (unranked, previously diamond, will get ranked in the new season)
VBWhiplashJC.584 (M)
VBInter.173
VBbayak.667
BLNFheathen.198

It's a fairly small team and knowing people's availability I think without Boony we'd struggle to put together a team some nights - and even then the gold guys would probably be getting pretty regular games.

Boony was in masters a season ago but demoted, he's been back up for about three weeks.

[ToR.Arnor]

Originally Posted by VB_WhiplashJC

Well, this is what I've got for our roster at the moment:

VBBoony.760
VBRandomness.557
Everion.975
VBRhuubarb (unranked, previously diamond, will get ranked in the new season)
VBWhiplashJC.584 (M)
VBInter.173
VBbayak.667
BLNFheathen.198

It's a fairly small team and knowing people's availability I think without Boony we'd struggle to put together a team some nights - and even then the gold guys would probably be getting pretty regular games.

Boony was in masters a season ago but demoted, he's been back up for about three weeks.

I cant promise anything (id need to consult Tier 4 Admins too) but based on that information I see that being acceptable

Quick Comments

VB_WhiplashJC:

Cheers Arnor.

[syfChadMann]

Originally Posted by ToR.Arnor

12.Tier 5 will be restricted to BSG players at sign ups, Players promoted to platinum are allowed to continue playing

Just want to add to this ruling with some context that is worrying people about running out of players.
Last season of Tier 5 had many many promotions.. but only a few into diamond and only about 2-3 players made it from Gold to Diamond in the season. So if it is BSG sign up then I doubt there will be any problems with teams running out of players because they all got promoted to Diamond.

Proposal for scheduling of games
Allow team managers to schedule their own games - knowing the match ups weeks in advance and putting the task of scheduling to the managers (Admins available on set play date - that will act as a default if teams can not come to an agreement on play time) but matches to be scheduled by managers then confirmed with Admins. Allowing flexibility for all teams and players to find a time that suits. We are mostly in a very similar time zone - so finding a good schedule should be easy for most.
Thoughts?

[|Erasmus|]

Originally Posted by fray`ChadMann

Proposal for scheduling of games
Allow team managers to schedule their own games - knowing the match ups weeks in advance and putting the task of scheduling to the managers (Admins available on set play date - that will act as a default if teams can not come to an agreement on play time) but matches to be scheduled by managers then confirmed with Admins. Allowing flexibility for all teams and players to find a time that suits. We are mostly in a very similar time zone - so finding a good schedule should be easy for most.
Thoughts?

It is HUGELY easier to just know it's on a particular set time each week so people can clear an hour or two for that, than to have it a different time each week. And just the time delay when each manager gets a proposed time from their opponent and needs to go find out if they can indeed field enough players at that time really draws these things out so much that a week can easily go by without getting anything sorted.

Just set a time and day, and save reschedules for actual unforeseen circumstances (imo give each team a set number of reschedules so they can't abuse it) and just make life easy for the players/admins who then don't have to worry about not knowing when their next match may be.

[Zealo]

Originally Posted by |Erasmus|

It is HUGELY easier to just know it's on a particular set time each week so people can clear an hour or two for that, than to have it a different time each week. And just the time delay when each manager gets a proposed time from their opponent and needs to go find out if they can indeed field enough players at that time really draws these things out so much that a week can easily go by without getting anything sorted.

Just set a time and day, and save reschedules for actual unforeseen circumstances (imo give each team a set number of reschedules so they can't abuse it) and just make life easy for the players/admins who then don't have to worry about not knowing when their next match may be.

with chadman's proposal teams would have the option of saying 'no we are not rescheduling at all we play at the default time every week'...

i see no benefits to denying teams the option of rescheduling if both agree.

only hole in chad's system i see is a clear resolution if the default day passes and then the teams struggle to agree

[ProAnnn]

I disagree that the GSTL style is better for the gamers. A GSTL style only encourages a team to have ONE strong player to win an entire clan war, while the proleague style rewards team for having 4 good players. There is much more strategy in putting players in specific maps, sniping potential opponents.

[ToR.Arnor]

Hey Guys

As Mentioned previously

SEACL is Pro League format SEACC is GSTL All-Kill

SEACC#2 will occur, however it will be scheduled after the release of HotS

Please move forward in the dicussion to Chadmann's proposal for scheduling games

I will also take input on the Map Pool for the league

Cheers

[FvRGwaiLo]

Originally Posted by ToR.Arnor

Hey Guys

As Mentioned previously

SEACL is Pro League format SEACC is GSTL All-Kill

SEACC#2 will occur, however it will be scheduled after the release of HotS

Please move forward in the dicussion to Chadmann's proposal for scheduling games

I will also take input on the Map Pool for the league

Cheers

So managers get a map list and pick players? Thats great looking forward to it ^^

Quick Comments

syfChadMann:

Yep.. they'd have to submit the players and the match ups would be posted.

[ToR.Arnor]

Hey Guys

Thoughts on this Map Pool

GSL Abyssal City • GSL Antiga Shipyard • GSL Bel'Shir Vestige • GSL Cloud Kingdom • GSL Daybreak • GSL Entombed Valley • GSL Whirlwind

This is the current map pool for GSL Season 1 2013

Thoughts please as Id like to lock this up early next week

Thanks

[asdfSchnitzel]

Originally Posted by ToR.Arnor

Hey Guys

Thoughts on this Map Pool

GSL Abyssal City • GSL Antiga Shipyard • GSL Bel'Shir Vestige • GSL Cloud Kingdom • GSL Daybreak • GSL Entombed Valley • GSL Whirlwind

This is the current map pool for GSL Season 1 2013

Thoughts please as Id like to lock this up early next week

Thanks

I think it's a really good map pool, but maybe +Ohana and -Bel'Shir Vestige?

Quick Comments

	ToR.Arnor:	Thanks!
	NvRossi:	agree with this guy

[Snx.Mufasa]

Originally Posted by ToRSchnitzel

I think it's a really good map pool, but maybe +Ohana and -Bel'Shir Vestige?

ohana isn't in gsl for a reason t.t

edit. i actually think at this point i'd rather play ohana then a new map like belshir vestige, also wouldn't mind seeing metro in.

[FSBenAD]

Do we even have Bel'Shir Vestige on SEA. I tried searching arcade and custom games for it without luck.

[TidaL]

Take out Antiga and put in Metropolis

Maybe even try the new ladder maps, i personally like Akilon Flats

Quick Comments

syfSoundwave:

NO! NO! NO! NO!

[FaDePressureTest]

just a note, none of the GSL maps are actually on the SEA server are they? I know last time I checked they weren't.

Quick Comments

Zealo:

some are, some aren't

[ToR.Arnor]

Hey Guys

and heres the decision on Scheduling

Tier 1 and Tier 2 will be flexible Teams will have 1 week to play their games (12am Monday - 11:59pm Sunday)

Tier 3's Default Time is Wednesday 5pm SGT, 8pm AEDT, 10pm NZT, Teams are allowed to reschedule once however (Game must be played before the next match day, Reschedules must be organized a minimum of 2 hours before match day)

Tier 4's Default Time is Tuesday 5pm SGT, 8pm AEDT, 10pm NZT, Teams are allowed to reschedule once however (Game must be played before the next match day, Reschedules must be organized a minimum of 2 hours before match day)

Tier 5's Default Time is Thursday 5pm SGT, 8pm AEDT, 10pm NZT, Teams are allowed to reschedule once however (Game must be played before the next match day, Reschedules must be organized a minimum of 2 hours before match day)

A decision on Maps will be made on the next day or two

[fray`Alpha]

Originally Posted by ToR.Arnor

Hey Guys

and heres the decision on Scheduling

Tier 1 and Tier 2 will be flexible Teams will have 1 week to play their games (12am Monday - 11:59pm Sunday)

Tier 3's Default Day is Wednesday, Teams are allowed to reschedule once however (Game must be played before the next match day)

Tier 4's Default Day is Tuesday, Teams are allowed to reschedule once however (Game must be played before the next match day)

Tier 5's Default Day is Thursday, Teams are allowed to reschedule once however (Game must be played before the next match day)

A decision on Maps will be made on the next day or two

Do we have times on these days or do managers organise best time to play?

Quick Comments

ToR.Arnor:

fixed :)

[mGGDrGooSe]

Can I find out if Tier 4 admins are willing to allow more than one team per clan? mGG (and a couple of other clans afaik) would really like to put in a second team. We have I think around 18-20 people wanting to play and would like to submit 2x10 person teams. But we need to know now as the cut off date is looming larger.

[ToR.Arnor]

Originally Posted by Ali

Do we have times on these days or do managers organise best time to play?

You arent forced to play that day if there. captains can arrange to reschedule, (be sure to keep your Tier Admin in the loop at all times)

Originally Posted by mGGDrGooSe

Can I find out if Tier 4 admins are willing to allow more than one team per clan? mGG (and a couple of other clans afaik) would really like to put in a second team. We have I think around 18-20 people wanting to play and would like to submit 2x10 person teams. But we need to know now as the cut off date is looming larger.

Of course, it was allowed last season, Your first round opponents will be your clan mates however

[ToR.Arnor]

Map Pool Locked in

GSL Abyssal City • GSL Antiga Shipyard • WCS Ohana • GSL Cloud Kingdom • GSL Daybreak • GSL Entombed Valley • GSL Whirlwind

Quick Comments

syfSoundwave:

Looks pretty good to be honest. Rules on vetos?

[ToR.Arnor]

Originally Posted by ETL.Soundwave

Looks pretty good to be honest. Rules on vetos?

Maps are preselected

[SLCN.Wally]

Sorry if this has already been answered somewhere. When do the players for each series, like each bo3(tier 1/2) have to be submitted and agreed upon, do we just do it on the day just before playing or do we decide the series a couple days ahead so that players can prepare for specific races/players.

Quick Comments

ThatGuyDoMo:

I assume it wil be whatever the managers of each team decide?

[rezyn8]

Not sure if this has been posted before, however, would it be a good idea to award a SC2SEA achievement to the winning team/players for their particular league?

Quick Comments

	TidaL:	sounds like a good idea
	mGGNemesis:	^_^

[ThatGuyDoMo]

Hey guys what happens to teams now with all these new players coming in from other servers who might want to join clans and play SEACL?

In the rules it says you can't have anybody outside of SEA unless there are special exceptions? What would be the definition of "special exceptions?" Also, how would you even enforce this rule?

[ToR.Arnor]

Originally Posted by iVnThatGuyDoMo

Hey guys what happens to teams now with all these new players coming in from other servers who might want to join clans and play SEACL?

In the rules it says you can't have anybody outside of SEA unless there are special exceptions? What would be the definition of "special exceptions?" Also, how would you even enforce this rule?

In terms on enforcement, a new player joining a team/clan isnt allow to play in the league without the approval of admins so thats easily managed

special circumstances are that, they are special cases, like if a glade/mafia/PiG was training in Korea at the time, then he'd get approved, On the flip side people like Balloon who has been an active and helpful community member over the past would also be likely to be approved