[aztecx]

The reason I'm asking you is because I noticed you had a 2s team in master league and as well as that you're rather active on this board.

I play random in 2s but I have a question on zerg play at these higher levels. I've noticed (through watching replays) what a lot of players do is 10p sling through the whole early game and middle game then during the late game generally just pool their ally. My main question is why do they not at least try to boost their economy from the beginning by just a little. Maybe produce a few more drones which could mean an earlier expansion and more income for themselves and their ally. I'm thinking it could have something to do with the fact that it's often ling vs ling and having 10~ less units could cost them the game. Is that right? Also with the strategy, is the point of it go to mass lings all game no matter what? If playing on maps such as Monlyth Ridge or Scorched Haven which don't have any backrocks and are easy to wall off on, is there ever the necessity to deviate from this strategy and maybe macro up?

What strategies complement this 10p mass ling build. I personally think teching is a viable option since you're able to put so much pressure on your enemies early, as well as some forms of cheese such as proxy rax and proxy gates would really go well. Is this mass ling able to fend off most early forms of counter-aggression?

Also what are the counters/hard-counters to this build. It is the teammates responsibility to protect the lings from these counters, right?. IE get stalkers for the hellions and focus fire them etc.

Thanks!

[cure]

Originally Posted by aztecx

The reason I'm asking you is because I noticed you had a 2s team in master league and as well as that you're rather active on this board.

I play random in 2s but I have a question on zerg play at these higher levels. I've noticed (through watching replays) what a lot of players do is 10p sling through the whole early game and middle game then during the late game generally just pool their ally. My main question is why do they not at least try to boost their economy from the beginning by just a little. Maybe produce a few more drones which could mean an earlier expansion and more income for themselves and their ally. I'm thinking it could have something to do with the fact that it's often ling vs ling and having 10~ less units could cost them the game. Is that right? Also with the strategy, is the point of it go to mass lings all game no matter what? If playing on maps such as Monlyth Ridge or Scorched Haven which don't have any backrocks and are easy to wall off on, is there ever the necessity to deviate from this strategy and maybe macro up?

What strategies complement this 10p mass ling build. I personally think teching is a viable option since you're able to put so much pressure on your enemies early, as well as some forms of cheese such as proxy rax and proxy gates would really go well. Is this mass ling able to fend off most early forms of counter-aggression?

Also what are the counters/hard-counters to this build. It is the teammates responsibility to protect the lings from these counters, right?. IE get stalkers for the hellions and focus fire them etc.

Thanks!

Are you talking about this build ? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=170655

Well, the reason that people don't build extra drones is because it defeats the purpose of going for the early rush. Why would you try to rush halfheartedly with a higher chance of failing ? I've been doing that build alot with EscapisT recently and its working out pretty well for us, we're 131-30 atm. Most of the losses are when i'm playing terran (because i suck at terran) If the enemy is double terran, he'll just mine an extra 50 gas to pool me for bling nest and i'll start mining gas and bbust the terran the moment the nest pops. It's annoyingly hard to stop unless they fully prepare for it and have seen / done it before. Lastly, its pretty much an all-in. Good players will not let you recover from that all-in, if you don't kill them. So if you're doing it, i advise you to not make drones or tech (:

[Benji]

Honestly, in 2v2 we just allin, we got to masters just by cheesing, we don't go that in depth with builds and stuff. I just bane bust :P

[Satu]

I always refer to 2v2 as not requiring much thought. If you attack with your ally or defend with your ally, you will be x2 effective as compared to 1v1s. Rushing and allins get more effective depending on how many people are on your team.

[cure]

Originally Posted by Zergtastic

I always refer to 2v2 as not requiring much thought. If you attack with your ally or defend with your ally, you will be x2 effective as compared to 1v1s. Rushing and allins get more effective depending on how many people are on your team.

I have to disagree with the part where you said 2v2 doesn't require much thought. Planning strategies and counters is a key part in 2v2. Rushes and all-ins as well as defending requires thought, skill, and coordination from both players.

[Starhunter]

In 2v2 the common tactic to start things off is map control to allow you to divide your opponent and create 2v1 battles. If we have lings and stalkers between ur choke points we can hit and run attack from base to base. Then eventually push. Zerg speedlings are the #1 unit for map control and scouting, without doing that you leave yourself open to tactics such as cheese and teamwork play.

[aztecx]

Originally Posted by Kaz

Are you talking about this build ? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=170655

Well, the reason that people don't build extra drones is because it defeats the purpose of going for the early rush. Why would you try to rush halfheartedly with a higher chance of failing ? I've been doing that build alot with EscapisT recently and its working out pretty well for us, we're 131-30 atm. Most of the losses are when i'm playing terran (because i suck at terran) If the enemy is double terran, he'll just mine an extra 50 gas to pool me for bling nest and i'll start mining gas and bbust the terran the moment the nest pops. It's annoyingly hard to stop unless they fully prepare for it and have seen / done it before. Lastly, its pretty much an all-in. Good players will not let you recover from that all-in, if you don't kill them. So if you're doing it, i advise you to not make drones or tech (:

Yeh kind of. The only difference is that both players here are participating in the all-in. I've seen it done where the zerg just keeps making lings and the other teammate techs or expands.

Originally Posted by Benji

Honestly, in 2v2 we just allin, we got to masters just by cheesing, we don't go that in depth with builds and stuff. I just bane bust :P

Ah ic.

Originally Posted by Starhunter

In 2v2 the common tactic to start things off is map control to allow you to divide your opponent and create 2v1 battles. If we have lings and stalkers between ur choke points we can hit and run attack from base to base. Then eventually push. Zerg speedlings are the #1 unit for map control and scouting, without doing that you leave yourself open to tactics such as cheese and teamwork play.

Yeah that's very true. I only played a few games trying early aggression as zerg yesterday at around the platinum level and it went pretty well. Normally I would go 14gas 14 pool or 14hatch, 14pool 16gas and was susceptible to early aggression. I'm gonna give this a go today. One thing is I can only see it working if you have a decent teammate since I feel if you're playing with someone from lower platinum or less you might have trouble if they aren't able to capitalise from the advantage obtained through the early lings and map control.

[JacziE]

Haha, I think Aztecx is pretty disappointed by the reply --

I play a lot of 2v2 too; haven't reached Masters yet since my Diamond teams seem to be inactive at the moment.

But in general the most effective matches in 2v2 as I've seen in Zerg is a 4-gate/sling push at about 6minutes. Sometimes we would macro when we feel like playing long games, but it's generally a struggle because you have to either defend against very strong 2-onebase pushes. If the bases are not side by side, it's hard to defend against two people pushing when your units aren't together and you just... well, die.

Most of the time when my ally macros (esp a Terran) -- I just die so early because I can't defend myself vs a two-person push; but my ally techs that he is able to kill them 60% of the time by himself. In which case, I'd rather play a 10 minute game without me dying than afk-ing because my ally is playing a 1v2.

[cure]

I honestly doubt the build that you're talking about would work. Given that your opponents could just abuse the timing window to do a counter while your partner is teching and if u run in with lings and lose them because of forcefields. Btw, i've merged both your posts as double posting is disallowed. Please do take note.

PS: Take starhunt's advices it'll definitely help, he's 150-10 in 2v2 Masters (:

[Millionaire]

I got into RT 2v2 diamond with lots of joke builds like the planetary fortress rush, proxy hatchery ,proxy gateways etc. I believe if u wanna get into 2v2 master,u and your teammate need to master the mechanics of 1v1.

Just play like how u play 1v1 because 2v2 is 'almost similar' to 1v1 except that cheese play is slightly stronger...only slightly stronger.So,strong builds like fast expanding into mutalings help.

[Satu]

[QUOTE=Kaz;11244]I have to disagree with the part where you said 2v2 doesn't require much thought.QUOTE]

Yeah, thought someone would say that. It probably requires more thought in higher levels, but from most of the games I have played, I just make units with my opponent, attack and win. It does require LESS thought than in 1v1s imo though.

[cure]

Originally Posted by Zergtastic

Yeah, thought someone would say that. It probably requires more thought in higher levels, but from most of the games I have played, I just make units with my opponent, attack and win. It does require LESS thought than in 1v1s imo though.

Disagree again. If you're playing AT, it requires the same amount of thought in a 1v1. If you're playing RT, you have to scout two bases at once, trying to identify the builds that both are going and how to counter it. Double the thought required imo.

[NvPinder]

Originally Posted by Benji

Honestly, in 2v2 we just allin, we got to masters just by cheesing, we don't go that in depth with builds and stuff. I just bane bust :P

so you cheese all-in in 2v2 and win-trade in 1v1.

HOW DO YOU SLEEP AT NIGHT???

[Benji]

Originally Posted by JPMoney

so you cheese all-in in 2v2 and win-trade in 1v1.

HOW DO YOU SLEEP AT NIGHT???

Horizontally.

[Sixth]

Originally Posted by Benji

Honestly, in 2v2 we just allin, we got to masters just by cheesing, we don't go that in depth with builds and stuff. I just bane bust :P

Pure honestly! Nice.

[Xeen]

What's considered 'cheese' in 1v1 is pretty much standard play 2v2, because doing anything but playing hyperaggressive is silly. As starhunter brings up, you want to establish map control to create 2v1 situations - this is done by having more shit than the other players. Also, most tech builds are only geared to survive against aggressive builds 1v1, and thus the number of 'safe' builds is drastically reduced.

BW 2v2 was removed from professional leagues because every game was speedlings+mass zeals (into eventual mutas and sairs vs mutas) and involved relatively little strategy.

[aztecx]

Originally Posted by Xeen

What's considered 'cheese' in 1v1 is pretty much standard play 2v2, because doing anything but playing hyperaggressive is silly. As starhunter brings up, you want to establish map control to create 2v1 situations - this is done by having more shit than the other players. Also, most tech builds are only geared to survive against aggressive builds 1v1, and thus the number of 'safe' builds is drastically reduced.

BW 2v2 was removed from professional leagues because every game was speedlings+mass zeals (into eventual mutas and sairs vs mutas) and involved relatively little strategy.

Yeh today I just played a pretty big session with my 2v2 partner. We finally tried a strategy that I had been thinking about and ended up going 17-3. It involves both of us as you say playing hyper aggressively.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by Starhunter

without doing that you leave yourself open to tactics such as cheese and teamwork play.

I seriously lolled!

Other effective strategies include double drone rush and PF rush (not as viable now War Zone has been removed from the map pool).

[Makra]

With good micro, every player on one team 12 drone rushing can be pretty OP :P Then again if they 10gate/double 6 pool or something you're in trouble.

[dKiWi]

In team games u decide on a pre-set strategy and go with it all the way. If you deviate to macro and stuff u usually die. So i wud say 1v1 mentality messes with 2v2 mentality, especially if u play the most reactionary race which is zerg. People generally think playing with a reactionary 1v1 mentality is "skilled", but i wud say its just largely irrevelant to team games.