[NvJazBas]

Originally Posted by Sedz

Even if he did beat Kice in one of the prac games for whatever reason (Keep in mind, I can see a student that is high masters/low gm beating their coach) it still doesn't excuse him for not paying.

Read before replying. I already said that in no way I'm saying Kayhan did a right thing. I actually said he didn't.

[iM MaFia]

If i ever paid for coaching and my coach was worse than me, wouldn't you feel ripped off especially when his record is like 80% GM top 3 etc NA GM etc

[junitor]

Originally Posted by Sedz

CHobo gets coached by seohyeon/another korean pro, so it's not too hard to see how they could have similar hotkey setups and playstyles.

Other than that, this can be easily figured out, corner him when he's online and ask him for games, match up hotkeys and skill. Simple?

EDIT: It looks like Nirvana has already done this.

what is a moonstar?

Quick Comments

	TACeeSerps:	LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
	souljah:	you sure you quoted the correct post?
	neKo:	It's you!
	syfMiley:	There there buddy, it's okay.
	FvRphoneheha:	What just happened? Laughing so hard haha
	Synizta:	i think he may've meant to quote the rep comments on that post?
	nirvAnA:	yea i think so synizta haha!!

[TABottles]

@TABiggun Oh ok cheers. In that case he's a bigger scrub than me

[mOOnGLaDe]

sounds like a nickname that should be used for me

Quick Comments

	zenabi:	heard it here first, glades second account to be mOOnSTaR
	NvJazBas:
	TAEdgE:	oh god andy
	TCPLemminks:
	Asrathiel:	rofl
	TASlowHands:	My name is andy and i am the moonstar......
	Dox:	Nv.mOOnSTaR

[junitor]

sorry double post

[AsGNabi]

Originally Posted by xGKingJazBas

He was SEA low GM. Maybe he wasn't very good but he certainly wasn't a guy who would lie so he wouldn't have to pay. He paid me for multiple hours. I'm sure he didn't lie about himself beating Chobo.

Kayhan beat Chobo while he was coaching, so it really isn't that black and white.

Short answer, yes he beat him.
Long answer, not in the way Chobo would be playing normally.

[Rage]

I still don't think he hacked - the evidence was nowhere near conclusive about that.

But this....this is pretty cut and dry. I don't care what anyone says, hotkey setups are not reproducible by someone who doesn't use them for hundreds of games, not if they are playing at a high level.

In my mind, the most likely set of events is this - Chobo himself is a low GM/high masters player, enough to be convincing to Nirvana when they played. This also explains why he trades games evenly with Masters players at LANs, and also why he was able to be a convincing SC2SEA TGM coach - someone of that level can easily have enough knowledge to fill some coaching sessions.

But then the Chobo who beats the top of SEA is SeoYeon. I'm sure if we analysed key replays we would see this pattern replicated.

[iVnStinger]

Originally Posted by cR.ChadMann

Yeah - I just wanna say,
Don't hate on AsG - they are a good bunch of guys that stuck up for their clan mate.
I'm sure you would all do the same. Its easy for them to defend him as they are his friends and until now - no one was sure - no one had the right evidence.. so don't hate AsG. AsG are still a talented clan that represents their state well..

@ASG - I can vouch for this as well. When iVnFictioN hacked I thought iVn was done and I'd have thought everyone would hate us, but it was the exact opposite. I was being so hostile because I thought people were trying to hate on us. Similarly when iVnWallace was accused for hacking. But I was sadly mistaken. Sc2sea has such an amazing community. They help in the discussions and they do not judge the clan/team based on what 1 player has done. This is truly a community which makes me feel at home, one that I can share anything with and not feel scared. Do not feel like you guys will be hated. If you guys ever need help, you can find us here

@Rossi - Some people may think you've gone overboard with how much research you have done and how much effort you have put into this. But I for one would like to sincerely thank you for your amazing work. I do not like hackers. I've hated them even more when one of my own started hacking. The dedication you have shown to making this community a better place is something not everyone can show. I salute you sir. As well as everyone who has helped like tgun, Mafia and Nirvana (i can't remember all)

All I hope for is that Chobo can come clean and accept his punishment.

Quick Comments

	NvRossi:	I really appreciate that. Im glad something good came out of this
	syfPhoenix:
	TAriiChard:

[NvRossi]

Originally Posted by AsGNabi

Kayhan beat Chobo while he was coaching, so it really isn't that black and white.

Short answer, yes he beat him.
Long answer, not in the way Chobo would be playing normally.

Why are you responding and Chobo is not?

[Kepler]

Originally Posted by NvRossi

Why are you responding and Chobo is not?

Based on what he's told me on skype, he's trying to figure out how to respond.

[NvJazBas]

Originally Posted by AsGNabi

Kayhan beat Chobo while he was coaching, so it really isn't that black and white.

Short answer, yes he beat him.
Long answer, not in the way Chobo would be playing normally.

I've beaten Kayhan with Terran.

I'm sure a Terran who can beat top zergs like tgun,glade,targa,mafia,ender can beat kayhan easily?

[FaDeHellfyre]

I have a question that may seem stupid... but at risk of incurring the wroth of everyone I'll ask.

If it was indeed SeoHyeon playing on Chobo's account (I do not want to get into the argument of whether it was or not), shouldn't SeoHyeon also be getting looked at? Should someone notify his team (vVv gaming?)? This behaviour is against blizzards ToS is it not, and he would have been ineligible for the tournament otherwise. Also, if it happened, he was getting paid for it, so that also raises a lot of anger and actually some bannable offences i would think?

Quick Comments

	NvJazBas:	ofc
	mGGDaedalus:	is being discussed, everything waiting on statemnt from chobo i think

[Rage]

Originally Posted by xGKingJazBas

I've beaten Kayhan with Terran.

I'm sure a Terran who can beat top zergs like tgun,glade,targa,mafia,ender can beat kayhan easily?

I feel like a distinction needs to be made here between beating him while coaching and beating him in a normal scenario.

I got coaching from TypeReaL many many months ago - at the time he was low level KR GM, about to move to Europe (where he got GM basically rightaway), and during some PvP coaching games, I beat him once - but it was simply due to the fact that he was trying to show me the correct way to defend blink/obs with immortal expand, and was deliberately being more aggressive than one would in a normal game, which eventually meant I could overrun him.

Does that mean I'm clearly better than him?

No, it just means that a big part of the difference between real top players and players like me is the focus and repeated practise that goes into their games and builds, and when they are thinking about coaching as well as playing and also doing things that they don't necessarily practise, the gap is much smaller and easier to cross.

[NvJazBas]

Originally Posted by Rage

I feel like a distinction needs to be made here between beating him while coaching and beating him in a normal scenario.

I got coaching from TypeReaL many many months ago - at the time he was low level KR GM, about to move to Europe (where he got GM basically rightaway), and during some PvP coaching games, I beat him once - but it was simply due to the fact that he was trying to show me the correct way to defend blink/obs with immortal expand, and was deliberately being more aggressive than one would in a normal game, which eventually meant I could overrun him.

Does that mean I'm clearly better than him?

No, it just means that a big part of the difference between real top players and players like me is the focus and repeated practise that goes into their games and builds, and when they are thinking about coaching as well as playing and also doing things that they don't necessarily practise, the gap is much smaller and easier to cross.

PvP and ZvT very different.

Quick Comments

Rage:

You have me there. Point taken.

[Peleus]

Originally Posted by ESLHellfyre

I have a question that may seem stupid... but at risk of incurring the wroth of everyone I'll ask.

If it was indeed SeoHyeon playing on Chobo's account (I do not want to get into the argument of whether it was or not), shouldn't SeoHyeon also be getting looked at? Should someone notify his team (vVv gaming?)? This behaviour is against blizzards ToS is it not, and he would have been ineligible for the tournament otherwise. Also, if it happened, he was getting paid for it, so that also raises a lot of anger and actually some bannable offences i would think?

I'm sure the most likely avenue for progressing is this -

Wait for Chobo to respond, get his side of the story, wait for any more evidence to come forward (Nirv said perhaps he had some) and not do anything until the fast paced thread settles down.

Once all the information is together I'm sure this thread will be linked to the wider sc2 communities (Reddit, TL, PlayXP etc) and they will take appropriate action against SeoHyeon

Edit: Re communities (Reddit etc) I'm not a huge fan of mobs and pitchforks over think like swearing or BM, but cheating and smurfing deserve as much exposure as possible to lead to those responsible getting removed from the community as widely as possible.

Quick Comments

	jayaiwhy:	oh god, not reddit
	FaDeHellfyre:	Ah ok. Thanks, just checking. I'll continue eating my popcorn then :P
	Kepler:	Please not Reddit. For the love of God.
	Maynarde:	No reddit imo, they're pretty visceral there

[Cyanide]

I think the coaching issues are irrelevant to this post atm, as is this post.

Perhaps we can get back to the core issue, and wait for a response from Chobo.

Quick Comments

	xGKingdelete:	the coaching is evidence that someone has been using chobo's account to smurf and he intentionally that happen
	NvJazBas:	Yes it was just a little thing I wanted to point out. Getting way too big

[Rage]

Please don't involve reddit or TL in this.

Quick Comments

Maynarde:

I agree, this is a mistake

[AsGNabi]

Originally Posted by NvRossi

Why are you responding and Chobo is not?

Because he got mad and went for a shower. He's writing a reply now.

Quick Comments

	iMSystem:	Getting giddy now
	NvJazBas:	Moment I've been waiting for
	ToR.Arnor:	Anything to calm down Thomas
	TCPLemminks:	lol Jaz

[iM MaFia]

he got mad ppl found out the truth?
whats he mad @

Quick Comments

	syfPhoenix:	^^ this
	MrToast:	Childish comment if anything.
	TASlowHands:	counter rep lol
	TAriiChard:	^ how is that childish? it's in response to the post above
	TABjornbrandr:	Looks like you've buttered up the Toast the wrong way
	x5.Revenant:	Counter rep to a dumb negrep
	Dox:	NEUTRAL REP COS WHY NOT LOL
	ROOTPetraeus:	mafia's a grown up :D