[Satu]

This post is made out of boredom and seeking the knowledge of epic ZvZ skills. Im just posting up what I know about what the different builds can do vs each other, and Im pretty much expecting replies based on if Im right or wrong about stuff. Im a silver league player atm, looking to jump up some leagues, and ZvZ is where I've had the most trouble in the past. Dont look to this as a guide, rather me saying what I believe.

As many zergs know, starting ZvZ can be a bit tricky. Why? Because you can punish your opponent for making mistakes more heavily than in the other zerg matchups. For example, they drone too hard, you can make army units, move in, kill them. They take a greedy expansion, you move in, you kill it. They make too many army units, you equal them in that over time and creep ahead in economy. So basically you're trying to stay on a line, go either side of that and you can be hurt pretty badly.

Builds

Ling/Bane - Its the most effective rush in ZvZ. Banelings chase the opponents zerglings and your zerglings go ahead and kill stuff while his cant even engage yours. It can oftentimes be micro intensive for both sides. Heavily countered by roach builds, particularly day[9] build when chokes are used correctly.

15hatch - Although only an opening, 15hatch can be very effective even if you dont put any drones on your natural (Assuming you 15hatched to there). the extra larvae can get you ahead by itself. I see a lot of players opting not to put any drones at this hatch, but it really depends on the map. maps like xelnaga caverns can allow your opponent some free drone kills if you put some mining there, which really sucks in ZvZ, as it often means they can be one drone ahead of you, which can increase over the period of the game. This opening can be hurt badly by ling/bane aggression if you dont get a roach warren up fast enough. If you're having trouble with ling/bane against your 15hatches, watch Ret's ZvZs.

Mass roach - This build can be pretty darn strong leading into the midgame, as roaches are really all you can be getting for the midgame. If your opponent went ling/bane, yet you suffered minimal losses, you can pull way ahead (If not winning) using this build, knowing he wont have as many roaches. You can also use burrow like medivacs if your units get a bit too hurt after battles. Although burrow doesnt let you fly around... Bad comparison.

Roach/Hydra - This is only really a build good for large army scenarios. If you dont have enough roaches to tank damage in your front line, then they will die, shortly followed by the hydras in the back line. Although, it does mean you often dont even need to scout for a spire, as hydras own mutas.

Mass hydra - The only time you want to do this is vs mass muta. Sorry baka. Kinda.

Roach/Infestor - The strongest midgame army in my opinion. As spy said in a recent ZvZ cast, if his opponent engages, he cannot unengage and run away. A section of the army can be fungaled, and then the entire army has to engage, because he will not be able to lose that many units. It can result in win/win scenarios if your army is larger than theirs.

+1 speedlings - It sucks vs ling/bane, I learnt that in a BSG and havent used the build since. Its like tossing a dice, if they go pure speedlings they die. If they go aggressive with unupgraded roaches, they die. If they make banelings, you die. If you REALLY cant go without it in ZvZ, either learn a different build or only upgrade the armor/ranged and transition to roaches as fast as you can afterwards. Use it for ZvP only, and even then, only if you are an aggressive zerg that feels you get ahead from being aggressive. Although, its hilarious seeing +1 speedlings chomp up zealots for lunch. Cant remember if it was +1 or +2 last time I saw that happen.

Ling/roach into mutas -

You Tube

You Tube

Pretty cool, eh? Be aggressive, then be more aggressive. Im sure that build can take down a lot of good players, but I have the feeling its like a one-trick pony. If your opponent gets too many queens and also defends the initial push, then you can end up seriously behind after your muta pushes. Hydras would also be interesting to see vs this build, mainly based on timings. Not a very versatile build, its a bit too far planned out.

Tactics

Overseer contaminates - If you're having a REALLY even game where the drone and army counts are practically the same, you can use contaminates to change that. Having two overseers contaminating the natural and main expansions of an opponent can pull you ahead in production, and if you use it enough, it can give you a large advantage. There are also several strategies where multiple overseers are made for each hatchery of the opponent, and contaminates are used constantly. This will cause no production from the opponent. If used constantly after you have killed their army in an engagement, it makes you automatically win, despite how much army you have left afterwards. This tactic works better for less hatcheries, for obvious reasons.

Nydus worms - If your nydus positionings/timings are good, it can throw off your opponent. I havent used this much, but after watching a day[9] funday monday based on nydus worms, I started thinking about nydusing a lot more. To be honest, theres heaps of situations where nyduses are viable simply because you can cause damage and retreat with minimal losses. Thats what you're aiming for in any mirror matchup, you'd have to assume.

Burrow - If used with roaches, even without tunneling claws, you can use burrow to heal or save roaches in or after engagements. This can gain you a few extra roaches than your opponent in midgame, and make you win further engagements.

If you think I said something wrong, or want to give an opinion, reply. If you want to practice ZvZ with me or just own me for a while, reply. I'll add important notes pointed out in replies to the original post, but if something is debatable, I might not.

[SkyBreaker]

Nice thread dude! Day 9's daily today was regarding Top Korean ZvZ which might have a bit of quality information for people looking to improve their ZvZ match-ups; I just thought I'd post the link for you; Day[9] Daily #250 - Top Korean ZvZ

[TAhackdZ]

There's a decent ZvZ write up with vods and stuff on TeamLiquid I think???

Can't remember what it's called, something like [12 Days with the Pro's ZvZ with Ret] or something like that? It's got some good info if you can find it though.

Personally I hate ZvZ atm. It feels like such a coin toss match-up. I feel like I have to send one of my initial drones to scout for a 6 pool, which puts you on the back foot almost imediatly.

And then when a game doesnt end with something cheesy like a 6 - 8 pool, it's just a race to see who gets Mutalisk's first...

I just need to practice more I think. But it's very frustrating.

[Satu]

Originally Posted by Ridiculisk

There's a decent ZvZ write up with vods and stuff on TeamLiquid I think???

Can't remember what it's called, something like [12 Days with the Pro's ZvZ with Ret] or something like that? It's got some good info if you can find it though.

Personally I hate ZvZ atm. It feels like such a coin toss match-up. I feel like I have to send one of my initial drones to scout for a 6 pool, which puts you on the back foot almost imediatly.

And then when a game doesnt end with something cheesy like a 6 - 8 pool, it's just a race to see who gets Mutalisk's first...

I just need to practice more I think. But it's very frustrating.

First off, its "12 weeks with the pros" and Mr.Bitter is running it. Actually, Mr.B's sessions with Ret, Incontrol and Machine that I've watched are all amazing. Only they are fairly lengthy and kill my downloads. The most useful thing I've watched from Mr. B is him coaching some guy on his stream who sounded aussie. They had a guy 4gating the aussie every game, to see if the aussie could stop it. Mr.B was talking about all the small details of the 4gate and then showed that he knew what he was talking about when he beat the 4gating guy, with perfect scouting as well. The cool part about that story is how the next day, I got 4gated but held it off perfectly, and ended up winning. But thats ZvP. His ZvZ vods are amazing too, probably the best resource for ZvZ right now.

I disagree about the mutalisks race. Why? Hydralisks. You can throw a few hydras into your army just incase they are going for mutas, without even scouting. Hydras own mutas, and CAN back up your army pretty well. Still, if you're sure they aren't muta rushing, its pure roaches. On top of that, if you see them muta rushing, and all you have is roaches, you just go kill them. They wont have enough to defend 99% of the time.

I also diagree about drone scouting early in ZvZ. In fact, I disagree with drone scouting on most maps at all. If its a 4player map, then sure. But if its a 2 player map, your overlords can scout everything anyway. And what are you going to do vs a 6pooler if you scout it? You get a pool a bit earlier, by one or two food. In majority of cases, your lings still wont pop in time, so you just have to know how to do drones vs lings, or how to stall with drones. The advantage of doing it this way is that you get extra mining time than your opponent (Assuming they drone scout) which makes you get a potential extra drone out, as you have the better economy to do so. That advantage can increase over the period of the game, especially if you get some attacks on their mineral lines.

As for sky, I havent watched that ZvZ ep yet, I've only really seen his ZvZ day[9] build eps. I'll be sure to watch it.

[TAhackdZ]

Originally Posted by Zergtastic

First off, its "12 weeks with the pros" and Mr.Bitter is running it. Actually, Mr.B's sessions with Ret, Incontrol and Machine that I've watched are all amazing. Only they are fairly lengthy and kill my downloads. The most useful thing I've watched from Mr. B is him coaching some guy on his stream who sounded aussie. They had a guy 4gating the aussie every game, to see if the aussie could stop it. Mr.B was talking about all the small details of the 4gate and then showed that he knew what he was talking about when he beat the 4gating guy, with perfect scouting as well. The cool part about that story is how the next day, I got 4gated but held it off perfectly, and ended up winning. But thats ZvP. His ZvZ vods are amazing too, probably the best resource for ZvZ right now.

I disagree about the mutalisks race. Why? Hydralisks. You can throw a few hydras into your army just incase they are going for mutas, without even scouting. Hydras own mutas, and CAN back up your army pretty well. Still, if you're sure they aren't muta rushing, its pure roaches. On top of that, if you see them muta rushing, and all you have is roaches, you just go kill them. They wont have enough to defend 99% of the time.

I also diagree about drone scouting early in ZvZ. In fact, I disagree with drone scouting on most maps at all. If its a 4player map, then sure. But if its a 2 player map, your overlords can scout everything anyway. And what are you going to do vs a 6pooler if you scout it? You get a pool a bit earlier, by one or two food. In majority of cases, your lings still wont pop in time, so you just have to know how to do drones vs lings, or how to stall with drones. The advantage of doing it this way is that you get extra mining time than your opponent (Assuming they drone scout) which makes you get a potential extra drone out, as you have the better economy to do so. That advantage can increase over the period of the game, especially if you get some attacks on their mineral lines.

As for sky, I havent watched that ZvZ ep yet, I've only really seen his ZvZ day[9] build eps. I'll be sure to watch it.

koolies, than for clarifying the title for me.

And secondly....LOL is all I can say to the Hydralisk's...Hydra's off creep have absolutly no chance against decent muta harass. Fact of the matter is they have map control once they get some muta's. Sure Hydra's will rape them in a stand up fight, but personally, when I see hydra's trying to counter my muta's I just attack somewhere else.... You'll still get to do some damage before the Hydra's get there, and if you can do enough, you can force more units, drone up and expand. Muta's are map control, and ZvZ is all about map control.

I'm not disagreeing with the Hydra's counter muta's thing, but if your opp has muta's and see's that you have Hydra's, if he's smart, he'll have your hydra's playing tag while he macro's up and rolls you.

Essentially What I'm getting at is that Zerg needs map control. We are a reactive race, that needs to know what our opponents are doing to counter it effectivly. We do this by attaining and maintainging map control. The best units for this are Speedlings and Muta's (Both cause they're very fast) If you give up the muta's and you opponent doesnt...well then you've pretty much given him the map. He's now safe to expand, since he can poke and harass if you try to move out of your base, kill of some workers that sorta thing. Or he can just fly around the map, sniping OL's and expo's while your Hydra/Roach army tries desperatly to catch up to him.

EDIT: Probably could have worded that better, no offence intended.

[Satu]

Originally Posted by Ridiculisk

And secondly....LOL is all I can say to the Hydralisk's...Hydra's off creep have absolutly no chance against decent muta harass.

This annoys me because I had the perfect replay to prove that statement wrong. It was against BakaInu after the BSG #5, where he wanted a rematch. It had him massing mutas and doing epic harrass, he killed off SOOOO much stuff while I massed hydras. I had my bases connected with creep and massed hydras for pretty much the entire game. Then I just moved over to his base and attacked. He had a few roaches sitting there to defend, with some lings. All died to my hydras. I would mention his mutas came over to help, but it was as if they just evaporated on arrival.

I also have a replay against a masters league player in a community open, where I go mutas, he goes roach hydra, and with minimal hydras, he defends. With only a main and a natural on metalpolis, he has hardly any distance he has to run to defend both main and natural. He moves over to my base, and kills me.

I have never seen mutas work vs roach/hydra. Show me a replay where it does, and the roach hydra player or just pure hydra has decent control. Might take you a while to find a replay like that. :P

I'll ask Baka if he has the replay in the meantime.

[Jaii]

As the RH player vs ML you are playing the role of the terran in TvZ. You defend, defend, defend, build up,then kill the other player with one massive knockout punch.

You just dont want to throw that punch prematurely, because most often you only get one shot.

[TAhackdZ]

Originally Posted by Zergtastic

He had a few roaches sitting there to defend, with some lings. All died to my hydras. I would mention his mutas came over to help, but it was as if they just evaporated on arrival.

IMO if I was your opponent, and I was harassing you hard with Muta's and then I saw a big ball of hydra's, I would immediately cut Mutalisk production (and keep the ones I've got away from your hydra's), and spam the crap out of Banelings. Your Hydralisk ball will vaporize if it comes anywhere near my base now...

Keep harassing, expand, etc, you get the picture. Hydra's are just not really cost effective; 1 lava, 100m, 50g, and 2 Supply VS an extra 50g for possibly the best map control unit in the game.

Sorry if that was rude but, all I'm saying is that they are the powerhouse unit of the Zerg arsenal. Especially against other Zerg. (Since I'm pretty sure they're a lil faster than slings, all comes back to map control)

In the end though, this is just my opinion. So take it with a grain of salt.

[Satu]

Oh, and I didnt mention you can stop the mutas from moving at all with infestors. I really dont see how mutas are cost effective, its not really map control if all you can do is harrass and lose a few mutas each time you try.

Sure, they can be good if you force your opponent to hydras then techswitch while doing a little bit of damage, but over the long term, it isnt that good.