[Dox]

Three pretty immense changes in this patch. It looks like Blizzard has decided they don't want to discourage strategic diversity by having gold bases eliminated from tournaments. Protoss, rejoice, as you now have a very powerful response to Mutalisks. And Zergs can once again feel safe using Brood Lords & Infestors against Ghosts!

MULEs now harvest the same amount of minerals on both high yield minerals and normal minerals.

+ [MULE nerf explained] +

We’ve been looking into the effects that high yield expansions have on gameplay, in particular how the added efficiency of MULEs on these mineral patches can affect matchups. This is also a common piece of feedback we’ve received from both pro players and the community.

We’ve been closely monitoring several sources of information: GSL tournaments which feature maps that do not have high yield mineral patches at all, major tournaments that still use high yield expansions, and our own ladder maps data now that our 1v1 ladder features a tournament-like map pool.

Based on these observations, we’ve made the decision to keep MULE resource generation the same regardless of mineral type, while allowing high yield mineral patches to remain on our ladder maps. This change helps keep the risk vs. reward the same for all three races when acquiring expansions that feature high yield minerals.

Snipe damage changed from 45 to 25 +25 Psionic.

+ [Snipe nerf explained] +

We felt the Snipe ability was countering zerg broodlords and ultralisks slightly too well. Especially at the pro level, we were seeing a lot of games where terran players were playing very defensive games while massing ghosts to counter most of the options zerg players had at their disposal.

While we like to see creative and innovative use of units, we felt that in this case Snipe was becoming too effective against zerg’s most expensive units. When adjusting the ability, we tried to settle on a number that would allow using Snipe to remain a viable tactic, though not as powerful as it is now. With this change, brood lords will fall in ten casts of Snipe rather than six (taking into account health regeneration), while an ultralisk will die in 19 casts, up from 11. This also significantly increases the number of ghosts and stockpiled energy needed to pull this tactic off, which we feel confident about because, previously, terran players rarely needed to consider the energy on their ghosts units.

Phoenix now has a range upgrade at the Fleet Beacon.

+ [Phoenix buff explained] +

In the past, we’ve discussed whether protoss needed a more immediate change to give them additional ways of dealing with mutalisks in PvZ, or whether it was more appropriate to make changes to that matchup in Heart of the Swarm. After investigating, testing, and reviewing both community and pro feedback, we’ve decided to include a change in this patch.

The phoenix will now have 6 attack range after purchasing an upgrade, which should allow them to more easily deal with a large number of mutalisks. In the previous patch, when protoss players attempted to move their armies out across the map, their bases became extremely vulnerable. Existing options to cope with massed mutalisks were costly and not always effective. This range upgrade should help even the odds by giving protoss players the option to reactively build phoenixes in smaller numbers, and with some micro, allow them to more efficiently defend against mutalisk swarms. Upgraded phoenixes should also offer protoss players the potential for better map control in the PvZ match up.

Still, we also wanted to make sure that producing mutalisks in PvZ remains a viable strategy, and believe that it is. While it might not be a good idea to brute force a protoss opponent with a ton of mutalisks, pairing them with units such as infestors and/or corruptors will help counter the advantage the new range upgrade provides.

Classic APM gauge makes a comeback!

+ [APM explanation] +

There was a lot of concern and debate regarding whether APM should be an accurate number or it should be a fun, play style distinguishing factor like it has been traditionally. After hearing a lot of feedback from both sides, we decided to bring back classic APM, and change our current APM (that doesn’t count spam clicks) to be called Commands Per Minute, or CPM.

This way, pro players who want to show off how fast their hands move can do so, while at the same time players who really just want to know how accurate and efficient their actions are can look at CPM.

Source: Battle.net

Quick Comments

	Nemo:	Thanks !
	Loach:	SUCK IT TERRAN!
	LennX:	It's not an official patch if Terrans don't get nerfed! :)
	TcaTX:	WOOT!

[TAEdgE]

YESYESYESYES

Perfect. I don't go mutas and now protoss may not bitch as much woo.
Also for the snipe change, screw you iaguz.

Quick Comments

	Champi:	SCREW U IAGUZ :D
	TARane:	truth :)
	TcaTX:	ROFL <3

[LordByrnsy]

haha @ edge

I like these upgrades... tho the pheonix might still be a bit hard to use as a direct counter... seeing as a zerg can make like 10 or so mutas at a time and a protoss could make like 1 or 2 pheonix... oh well... we'll have to see how it plays out

Quick Comments

TAEdgE:

[Champi]

. Existing options to cope with massed mutalisks were costly and not always effective. This range upgrade should help even the odds by giving protoss players the option to reactively build phoenixes in smaller numbers, and with some micro, allow them to more efficiently defend against mutalisk swarms. Upgraded phoenixes should also offer protoss players the potential for better map control in the PvZ match up.



^ THIS !!!!

Quick Comments

	TAEdgE:	Look at the weirdo agreeing with himself
	Bash:

[simon]

19 snipes? brb necking myself

Quick Comments

breadfan:

[Theend]

2 nerf to terran and 1 buff for protoss =)

[ToRSpartaz]

When they implementing this?

[TARane]

i want dat nydus buff

[ToR.Arnor]

Time to learn Protoss ^_^

Quick Comments

	TcaTX:	Funny.. i thought the same thing
	ToRSmotPokingFish:	yea they just killing terran
	dKiWi:

[Dox]

Yeah just to throw some numbers in the thread, Phoenixes will now have 6 range (up from 4) with the upgrade. That's the difference between a Roach and a Marauder.

And you now require 10 snipes (up from 5) to kill a Brood Lord.
Or 19 Snipes to reduce an Ultralisk to 5 HP (up from 11).

This changes the game tremendously.

[ROOTPetraeus]

Originally Posted by Dox

And you now require 10 snipes (up from 5) to kill a Brood Lord.
Or 19 Snipes to reduce an Ultralisk to 5 HP (up from 11).

Wow... that is ******* huge.

[Seij]

I'm waiting for Nydus to be like super heavy duty armored while morphing with 10000 hp personally. (In all seriousness buff Nydus please)

[NvPinder]

One thing to note, assuming the range upgrade costs at least 100/100, that's effectively a range upgrade that costs 400/300 (since you'll be building a fleet beacon which is more or less useless till much much later in the game), TBH I think it'll be an upgrade rarely, if ever, purchased. The threat of it being in the game will be enough to deter zergs from going mass, mass muta, and getting the upgrade for small amounts of harassing muta (<12), would be a complete waist 400/300.

That's not to say I'm not happy with the change because it gives us a way better way of dealing with mutas, but it's just interesting they put it at the fleet beacon without lowering the fleet beacons cost a little.

Quick Comments

ProAnnn:

(Y)

[TAXanT]

Originally Posted by TAJPMoney

One thing to note, assuming the range upgrade costs at least 100/100, that's effectively a range upgrade that costs 400/300 (since you'll be building a fleet beacon which is more or less useless till much much later in the game), TBH I think it'll be an upgrade rarely, if ever, purchased. The threat of it being in the game will be enough to deter zergs from going mass, mass muta, and getting the upgrade for small amounts of harassing muta (<12), would be a complete waist 400/300.

That's not to say I'm not happy with the change because it gives us a way better way of dealing with mutas, but it's just interesting they put it at the fleet beacon without lowering the fleet beacons cost a little.

Yeah I thought the same as well, with getting the fleet beacon and such it seems like you are going to have to know pretty early the muta's are coming to deal with them effectively. I guess where it does help is giving protoss map control back that we generally lose regardless of how many phoenixes we have when a huge muta ball is floating around. Time to micro againt dem muta's to HELL.

[RicocheT]

Originally Posted by XanT

Yeah I thought the same as well, with getting the fleet beacon and such it seems like you are going to have to know pretty early the muta's are coming to deal with them effectively. I guess where it does help is giving protoss map control back that we generally lose regardless of how many phoenixes we have when a huge muta ball is floating around. Time to micro againt dem muta's to HELL.

New strat from Zergs.
Make spire.
Make bunch of mutas.
Force Fleet Beacon+Range Upgrade
Tech Switch to Ultras

Quick Comments

ToRSmotPokingFish:

[TAXanT]

Originally Posted by FaDeRicochet

New strat from Zergs.
Make spire.
Make bunch of mutas.
Force Fleet Beacon+Range Upgrade
Tech Switch to Ultras

I'll make sure archons aren't far away if the muta count isn't high enough :P

[NvPinder]

Originally Posted by FaDeRicochet

Make spire.
Make bunch of mutas.
Force Fleet Beacon+Range Upgrade
Tech Switch to roach

This has been one of the hardest things to deal with as protoss when going stargate after seeing a spire, we have no way to know if its going to be 9 muta harass or mass mass muta, and over-spending on phoenix & an air upgrade can cause a roach switch to put you horrrrrrribly behind.

[HuT]

Oh man oh man oh man...

Ghost nerf ftl

Quick Comments

Eldrid:

yeaaaaaaaaaah!! :D

[TcaTX]

Good patch. interesting protoss air styles are forthcoming

Oh wait did I say interesting? I mean't annoying!

[Volition]

No matter what i say here this is going to come off as a Terran QQ. But here goes anyway.

Ghost nerf
Didn't blizzard say that terran were under-performing in all leagues under masters? That is, that a player with the same apm and macro would effectively do worse than a protoss who builds and army and 1-a's, or a zerg who has mastered the inject mechanic?

In the hands of the Code S players, ghosts are ridiculously exploitive. ridiculously - you see the snipes and there is nothing the poor zerg can do. But those times aren't that relative for us lowbies. We havent built ghosts in advance (and i do disagree with blizz's comment that ghost energy isnt something us terran players need to consider). When i am building ghosts, i need them right now - and their damage has dropped by approx 45%. hrmm i wonder how this will affect the matchup - but i suppose blizzard has stats etc for that

I find that in my TvZ, there comes a time in the game where you scout Hive is being morphed. At that time, you have to make a decision - do i need to be massively viking heavy or get more tanks or marauders. the wrong decision is GG - and the ghost fit nicely into this middle category where they wouldnt be as perfect as the other units, but still were safe against both.

So now, when we scout the hive coming but have no idea which tech route it will be, what do I do?

It seems a strange choice given that they have admitted us lowbie terrans are underperforming. damn you korean pros for exploiting everything and making my race harder!

Mules:
Completely agree, should have been changed ages ago.

Quick Comments

breadfan:

[lolwut]

Originally Posted by Volition

No matter what i say here this is going to come off as a Terran QQ. But here goes anyway.

Ghost nerf
Didn't blizzard say that terran were under-performing in all leagues under masters? That is, that a player with the same apm and macro would effectively do worse than a protoss who builds and army and 1-a's, or a zerg who has mastered the inject mechanic?

In the hands of the Code S players, ghosts are ridiculously exploitive. ridiculously - you see the snipes and there is nothing the poor zerg can do. But those times aren't that relative for us lowbies. We havent built ghosts in advance (and i do disagree with blizz's comment that ghost energy isnt something us terran players need to consider). When i am building ghosts, i need them right now - and their damage has dropped by approx 45%. hrmm i wonder how this will affect the matchup - but i suppose blizzard has stats etc for that

I find that in my TvZ, there comes a time in the game where you scout Hive is being morphed. At that time, you have to make a decision - do i need to be massively viking heavy or get more tanks or marauders. the wrong decision is GG - and the ghost fit nicely into this middle category where they wouldnt be as perfect as the other units, but still were safe against both.

So now, when we scout the hive coming but have no idea which tech route it will be, what do I do?

It seems a strange choice given that they have admitted us lowbie terrans are underperforming. damn you korean pros for exploiting everything and making my race harder!

Mules:
Completely agree, should have been changed ages ago.

Coudn't you use a scan?

[Strafe]

Terrible. Fix late game TvP instead

Quick Comments

	MooZfY:	^
	dKiWi:

[|Erasmus|]

Originally Posted by Strafe

Terrible. Fix late game TvP instead

But blizzard can achieve their 50% win rate by making us all-in every game though, and **** any terran that wants to expand...

@System: HT, DT and Infestor are psionic. Also other ghosts. Retardedly, overseers aren't. So double the number of snipes if you want to cloak near a zerg army even, too. That seems smart... T_T

[Daboo]

Looks like HOTS will not be coming out this year after all,those are pretty massive changes.

Edit: oh lol,the poor apm counter..dont know why I laughed when I saw that.

[|Erasmus|]

cause Terran desperately needed MORE nerfs... ****.

Quick Comments

Kringe:

It is what all Protoss are saying

[QEDjuslai]

yes goodbye muta ling!!! thank you blizzard

[x5.NotoriouS]

great patch... Love it

[maykid]

Honestly... The Pheonix upgrade won't do anything because it will cost way too much, and by the time you get the fleet beacon there out with 10 mutas already. Also, if you tech switch to the fleet beacon for that upgrade you'll be behind in every other tech as well, meaning if they just say okay tech switch your in trouble. End of story.
The Pheonix upgrade is honestly a rip off, but that's what I think at least. The only way to fix Muta/Ling vs Toss is to either decrease splash damage or increase storm/Archon damage. But... That's what I think.

[TABiggun]

Originally Posted by maykid

Honestly... The Pheonix upgrade won't do anything because it will cost way too much, and by the time you get the fleet beacon there out with 10 mutas already. Also, if you tech switch to the fleet beacon for that upgrade you'll be behind in every other tech as well, meaning if they just say okay tech switch your in trouble. End of story.
The Pheonix upgrade is honestly a rip off, but that's what I think at least. The only way to fix Muta/Ling vs Toss is to either decrease splash damage or increase storm/Archon damage. But... That's what I think.

Fix muta/ling? Its not broken.

Quick Comments

seanious:

[iMSystem]

Exactly what units are Psyonic?

Does that count for Templars :O

Otherwise I like this patch, exciting stuff can't wait for sick Pheonix v Muta control ^_^_^_^

[NvPinder]

Originally Posted by System

Exactly what units are Psyonic?

Ones that can be sniped are infestors, ht and i THINK dt.

[Daboo]

Originally Posted by System

Exactly what units are Psyonic?

Does that count for Templars :O

Otherwise I like this patch, exciting stuff can't wait for sick Pheonix v Muta control ^_^_^_^

I think it's a very small buff for ghosts against protoss. Queens, infestors. archons,sentries,templar and warp prisms and mother ships are psionic. Ghosts do 5 more damage against these, so late game ghosts are slightly more effective as anti spell casters agents.

So against archone zealot they want you to go emp->snipe snipe. Against zerg, though it's mostly a nerf,and ultras will not look as bad against mass ghost.

[ToRSmotPokingFish]

Originally Posted by Dox

With this change, brood lords will fall in ten casts of Snipe rather than six (taking into account health regeneration), while an ultralisk will die in 19 casts, up from 11.

yes because us low level players have that sort of APM to waste.... serious why dont they just remove the ghost? i think it would be quicker than just slowly debuffing the hell out of it

i guess the answer will be MAKE MOAR MAAARINES

[VB_Blake]

Never understood why Ghosts were so important against Broodlords, now I know and it's too late :'(

[|Erasmus|]

sentries, warp prism and motherships aren't biological so can't be sniped anyway. I think it still takes 2 snipes to kill a HT anyway so the minor damage buff is completely useless.

Nice catch on queens though, didn't think they were psionic.

[iMSystem]

So basically, it just means that when hive tech shows up, smack a **** ton of Tech Labs on the Barracks, and then scout to see if you need Ghosts of Marauders.

Ghosts to EMP the Infestors, then use your Marines to **** up Brood Lords of course you'll need Vikings as well.
Then Marauders for Ultras?

Something I'm missing?

[|Erasmus|]

They can still make banes. Not being able to siege against broods still makes it a ******* retarded idea to just run right under broods with mass marine.

[ToRSmotPokingFish]

time to make heads spin with some stats?

Before Patch:
Queen: 4snipes
Infestor: 2snipes
HT: 2snipes
DT: 3snipes
Ghost: 3snipes

After Patch:
Queen: 4snipes
Infestor: 2snipes
HT: 2snipes
DT: 3snipes
Ghost: 2snipes

so effectively, ghosts are just nerfed?

and archons are also psionic, hopefully this means snipe can hit biological and psionic (incl. non biological), if so i wont be so angry

EDIT: thx Dj added ghosts, if i missed anything else let me know

Quick Comments

|Erasmus|:

I thought that minor damage buff to psionic was just blizz trolling us.

[ToRDjvillian]

Originally Posted by SmotPokingFish

time to make heads spin with some stats?

Before Patch:
Queen: 4snipes
Infestor: 2snipes
HT: 2snipes
DT: 3snipes

After Patch:
Queen: 4snipes
Infestor: 2snipes
HT: 2snipes
DT: 3snipes

so effectively, ghosts are just de buffed?

and archons are also psionic, hopefully this means snipe can hit biological and psionic (incl. non biological), if so i wont be so angry.

Where's te ghost v ghost?

Quick Comments

ToRSmotPokingFish:

thanks, is early, so i bad :p

[NvPinder]

Originally Posted by SmotPokingFish

so effectively, ghosts are just de buffed?

The word is nerfed, yes, they were nerfed, the +dmg to psionic is to keep the current snipe relationship w/ infestors and ht the same, as the feedback/storm vs snipe/emp fights, as well as sniping infestors, are a big part of lategame tvp/tvz which blizzard obviously didn't want changed by reducing the overall dmg of snipe.

Also I'd bet all my battlenet accounts you still won't be able to snipe anything non-biological (including archons, lol).

Also, they still haven't changed archons size to fit through one hex gaps ={. It's a big ball of energy that can't fit through gaps that stalkers can T-T.

[ToRSmotPokingFish]

Originally Posted by TAJPMoney

The word is nerfed, yes, they were nerfed, the +dmg to psionic is to keep the current snipe relationship w/ infestors and ht the same, as the feedback/storm vs snipe/emp fights, as well as sniping infestors, are a big part of lategame tvp/tvz which blizzard obviously didn't want changed by reducing the overall dmg of snipe.

Also I'd bet all my battlenet accounts you still won't be able to snipe anything non-biological (including archons, lol).

Also, they still haven't changed archons size to fit through one hex gaps ={. It's a big ball of energy that can't fit through gaps that stalkers can T-T.

in all honesty i dont think the nerf was massively needed, terran needs APM to spam snipes, and with APM used on infestor/broodlord they could beat ghosts,

STATS:
Broodlord range: 9.5
Fungal range: 9
EDIT: Ghost Snipe range: 10

so even without an overseer, ghosts have to use cloak to start with to get in range of BL which removes 25 energy already, i dunno its too early to put together a good post need MOAR SLEEPS

[NvPinder]

Originally Posted by SmotPokingFish

in all honesty i dont think the nerf was massively needed, terran needs APM to spam snipes, and with APM used on infestor/broodlord they could beat ghosts,

STATS:
Broodlord range: 9.5
Fungal range: 9
Ghost range: 6

so even without an overseer, ghosts have to use cloak to start with to get in range of BL which removes 25 energy already, i dunno its too early to put together a good post need MOAR SLEEPS

dude... snipe range =/= ghost attack range...

Also, whilst it does need 'high apm' to spam snipe, i wouldn't considering holding shift and spamming click on one spot, then then the next spot, 5 times over with plenty of time to change between targets without it being inefficient an even remotely mechanically demanding task compared to things like marine splitting, FF+Storm combos, ling+bling+muta flanks, etc.

[ToRSmotPokingFish]

Originally Posted by TAJPMoney

dude... snipe range =/= ghost attack range...

Also, whilst it does need 'high apm' to spam snipe, i wouldn't considering holding shift and spamming click on one spot, then then the next spot, 5 times over with plenty of time to change between targets without it being inefficient an even remotely mechanically demanding task compared to things like marine splitting, FF+Storm combos, ling+bling+muta flanks, etc.

Snipe range, my bad i must go wake up

true there are other things which are more demanding but if it that hard to just fungal (F?) and then have BL kill the ghosts?

[dippa]

Originally Posted by TAJPMoney

dude... snipe range =/= ghost attack range...

Also, whilst it does need 'high apm' to spam snipe, i wouldn't considering holding shift and spamming click on one spot, then then the next spot, 5 times over with plenty of time to change between targets without it being inefficient an even remotely mechanically demanding task compared to things like marine splitting, FF+Storm combos, ling+bling+muta flanks, etc.

and let's not get into this mwheel trick that's just become public over the last few days -,-

also, infestors apparently have 90hp. my bad. no wonder i'm shit at the game ~_~

[TAEdarus]

Originally Posted by SmotPokingFish

in all honesty i dont think the nerf was massively needed, terran needs APM to spam snipes, and with APM used on infestor/broodlord they could beat ghosts.

I think it was dippa who said it earlier, but take a look at the scroll-wheel method for snipes

Originally Posted by TAJPMoney

Also, whilst it does need 'high apm' to spam snipe, i wouldn't considering holding shift and spamming click on one spot, then then the next spot, 5 times over with plenty of time to change between targets without it being inefficient an even remotely mechanically demanding task compared to things like marine splitting, FF+Storm combos, ling+bling+muta flanks, etc.

I don' think shift-sniping works properly anyways? Something to do with the cooldown timer on the ghosts?
I think if you have more than one selected they'll each fire off one but then wont fire another until their auto-attack command completes (they kill what they sniped at)?


Phoenix buff extremely interesting and I can see this being utilised, but how often and in what situations? Having that extra 2 range is useful for more than just mutas

[x5.Revenant]

Originally Posted by SmotPokingFish

time to make heads spin with some stats?

Before Patch:
Queen: 4snipes
Infestor: 2snipes
HT: 2snipes
DT: 3snipes
Ghost: 3snipes

After Patch:
Queen: 4snipes
Infestor: 2snipes
HT: 2snipes
DT: 3snipes
Ghost: 2snipes

so effectively, ghosts are just nerfed?

and archons are also psionic, hopefully this means snipe can hit biological and psionic (incl. non biological), if so i wont be so angry

EDIT: thx Dj added ghosts, if i missed anything else let me know

Edit: Sorry I'm blind

[ToRSmotPokingFish]

Originally Posted by Revenant

Didn't really read the other posts, but Queens are Psionic too =]

queens are in there...

Quick Comments

x5.Revenant:

Here, have a rep, for using the quote used on Terran, for Protoss :P

[x5.Revenant]

Originally Posted by SmotPokingFish

queens are in there...

Oppsie, didn't see the Psionic/Queen tag. My bad~

[Flamga]

That phoenix buff is pretty big. It goes from phoenix if microed properly killing muta, to having them constantly outrange them. I suppose I will see how it works out but I think this will kill muta play outright, assuming that protoss use the upgrade.

At least its on the fleet beacon so is not an easy to get one :/

[dippa]

ghosts needed 3 snipes to kill infestors pre-patch (Infestors had 100hp, snipe did 45 dmg)

[ToRSmotPokingFish]

Originally Posted by dippa

ghosts needed 3 snipes to kill infestors pre-patch (Infestors had 100hp, snipe did 45 dmg)

liquipedia is lying to me? :O

[fur]

I really feel like I'm playing the clock whenever I am up against a Protoss.

I'm hoping that TvZ doesn't start to feel the same way but this is going to make life late game a lot harder.


Can't wait for HotS. I would really some tier 3.

[ToRSmotPokingFish]

Originally Posted by fur

I really feel like I'm playing the clock whenever I am up against a Protoss.

I'm hoping that TvZ doesn't start to feel the same way but this is going to make life late game a lot harder.


Can't wait for HotS. I would really some tier 3.

Marine/SCV all in all day

[fur]

http://www.twitch.tv/avilo/b/308157534

Avilo ranting about the latest changes. For those who a good rage.

Quick Comments

	x5.Revenant:	i lol'ed.
	ToRCrispy:	is he 10?

[Dox]

Originally Posted by fur

http://www.twitch.tv/avilo/b/308157534

Avilo ranting about the latest changes. For those who a good rage.

Is that guy retarded, hahahaha.

[ROOT`iaguz]

Originally Posted by Dox

Is that guy retarded, hahahaha.

Yes. He was ******* retarded in RA3 and he's ******* retarded now.

Anyway about the changes...

Gold bases are still kinda dumb but I like the mule change. Mules on gold bases are imbalanced. No one can argue this intelligently. GSL got rid of gold bases recently and we still got 3 terrans in the RO8 so I think we're doing pretty good.

Snipe change is kinda frustrating but understandable. Also makes me feel a lot better about using the scroll wheel trick for snipes (with 10 ******* snipes to kill a broodlord now you kinda have to!)

Don't really care about phoenixes, you never see fleet beacons in PvT anyway (and if you do the Terran is probably dead anyway)

Quick Comments

Peleus:

Great reply

[mGGDrGooSe]

Ooo, message box change :P. So assuming someone goes FFE, 1gate, 1-2stargate type opening, at what time would we reasonably expect the beacon to go down? I'm trying to imagine how long you can stay on muta before they become useless. I'm thinking that now it would be a case of 10-12 mutas to open and then into a non-muta type situation.

I guess once that upgrade finishes any mutas you have on the field will become effectively the equivalent of expensive hydras (seeing as you would have to keep them with your army or at home to keep them alive). So the key would be to stop the upgrade in the first place? If they rush for it on two base then hopefully we can just roll them with a ground army, or if they go for it late, then we get a little more out of our original ball, but would be a big risk to try and mass muta.

Hmm, also thinking about the fact that now they only have 1 less range than spore crawlers, making it a bit more important to ensure they are placed correctly against pheonix harass. Probably a minor point.

[/end theorycraft]

[neKo]

WOOP WOOP! BYE BYE XOXO SNIPE & TERRANS

also yay for phoenixes? I sure as hell don't use mutas in zvp

[ToRSmotPokingFish]

Originally Posted by lolwut

Coudn't you use a scan?

say they are 4 base, they could just hide their tech somewhere else? should we scan all base?...

Quick Comments

breadfan:

it's called scouting

[ToRDeathsFang]

Why the hell did i ever switch to Zerg from Protoss. Gotta switch back now godamnit

Quick Comments

TAEdarus:

When did you do that?

[SLCN.Kez]

Yeah I really dont think the protoss upgrade will matter all that much, it'll be much more effective as a deterrent rather than an actual counter. However definitely happy mules are changed and now all 15 of my broods wont die to like 10 ghosts with machine gun snipes

[Nemo]

I think ghosts took 3 snipes to kill infestors before because the infestor was recovering 1 hit point just after the first snipe, whatever fast was the second snipe.

Now the ghost can snipe them in 2 shots. Brood or Ultras without infestors combo are far less powerfull. Without infest Vikings rule and without infest, bio can kite Ultras I guess.

That might be the idea of Blizzard. Change the target of the Ghosts, make them even more investor killers. That was there role in the first place, attack enemy sorcerers that support the army instead of letting them deal with the army itself.

Quick Comments

FaDeBadger:

Correct good sir

[ToRSmotPokingFish]

i dont think the snipe damage needed changing, maybe make it have a cooldown instead of use energy, honestly i love this idea, and then decrease max energy maybe? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[RicocheT]

Looks like a theory build I was (Marine/Ghost/Medivac) going won't work one bit since snipe can't even kill a friggin baneling/ling. Nerfed to 25 damage is a bit overkill. Not such a drastic change would of been better (although you will 2 shot infestors now, which is better than 3). Still don't really understand, when Zerg has such a bossly AOE in fungal and Toss has Collo, also with intense AOE and you nerf the single target unit spell. Regardless, changes aren't 'set' and maybe Snipe nerf won't be so bad.

Maybe...probably not.

Not fussed about the MULE nerf, I saw it coming.
I got a few friends who like to rage hard about mules and gold expos.
Hope they stop their QQ now regarding that issue.

[Asrathiel]

Originally Posted by XanT

I'll make sure archons aren't far away if the muta count isn't high enough :P

Mmm archons, my favouritest

Happy about the MULE nerf, though I do feel that getting rid of gold bases would have made more sense...

Will have to experiment with this phoenix upgrade and see how useful it actually is.

[TAXanT]

Originally Posted by Asrathiel

Will have to experiment with this phoenix upgrade and see how useful it actually is.

Agreed

I think it'll be useful, the question is what zerg players will do to deal with it.

[Asrathiel]

Originally Posted by TAJPMoney

This has been one of the hardest things to deal with as protoss when going stargate after seeing a spire, we have no way to know if its going to be 9 muta harass or mass mass muta, and over-spending on phoenix & an air upgrade can cause a roach switch to put you horrrrrrribly behind.

A fact which zerg could most definitely make use of.

[iRLpuku]

for all the terrans out there

Quick Comments

	ToRSmotPokingFish:	<3<3<3<3<3<3<3<3
	TABottles:	♥
	Nemo:	Yeah, baby, Terran for the true ones haha :D
	dKiWi:

[TABottles]

Stop keeping me down Blizzard lol

Also, CPM.. !? Just keep it APM and call your slightly modified one Blizzard APM. Why would anyone rename the original.

EDIT: Oops I read it wrong - Must have been blinded by the Terran nerfs

[inFeZa]

I really like the phoenix idea. Hopefully i won't see stupid balls of 30+ mutas fly into my base and wreck every probe i have now, then trying to counter attack into a billion spines. edit= and no amount of cannons can stop a muta ball.

As for the MULES - Really should have gotten rid of the golds all together.

Quick Comments

	Asrathiel:	Yup yup yup
	ToRSmotPokingFish:	this!!

[iMSystem]

Originally Posted by SQLTt.inFeZa

As for the MULES - Really should have gotten rid of the golds all together.

Keeping the gold bases adds an element to the game about base decisions.
Now that Mules don't mine crazy amounts in the gold, taking the gold has the same mineral boost across all races.

Removing the gold bases really just makes taking bases quite stale, and linear, instead of adding a risk factor to it.

I hope the GSL re-adds gold bases after this patch is out, below is my reasoning.


Edit:
The following numbers used are MADE UP for clarity and getting a point across!
Now that I think about it, technically Terran still get the bonus out of it. Imagine, 6 patches of Gold, fully saturated (18workers) gives you 1000 mineral income.
Because the way Terran's Mules work (They can mine while a SCV is mining the same patch) means that Terran can still get a boost, but is it enough to worry about now that the mining amount has been reduced?
Example, 18workers gets 1000mineral income on the gold. Assuming 3 OC terran, 3 Mules adds 999 to the income amount.

Is that just how Mules are ment to work, buffing the Terran economy so that it is not an issue, or should gold bases still be removed completely?

[[TA]LoSt]

Originally Posted by System

Keeping the gold bases adds an element to the game about base decisions.
Now that Mules don't mine crazy amounts in the gold, taking the gold has the same mineral boost across all races.

Removing the gold bases really just makes taking bases quite stale, and linear, instead of adding a risk factor to it.

I hope the GSL re-adds gold bases after this patch is out, below is my reasoning.


Edit:
The following numbers used are MADE UP for clarity and getting a point across!
Now that I think about it, technically Terran still get the bonus out of it. Imagine, 6 patches of Gold, fully saturated (18workers) gives you 1000 mineral income.
Because the way Terran's Mules work (They can mine while a SCV is mining the same patch) means that Terran can still get a boost, but is it enough to worry about now that the mining amount has been reduced?
Example, 18workers gets 1000mineral income on the gold. Assuming 3 OC terran, 3 Mules adds 999 to the income amount.

Is that just how Mules are ment to work, buffing the Terran economy so that it is not an issue, or should gold bases still be removed completely?

Just makes me think that maybe terran won't MULE their gold now, as the gold patches will last longer if they MULE their main/nat which yields the same income anyway? Probably a smarter decision and leave the SCV's mining at the gold for as long as possible..

This is a pretty brutal patch for terran, I don't think the snipe needed to get nerfed THAT much, but I don't play zerg so I don't know how bad it actually is when playing.

[TAXanT]

Range comparison for Phoenixes (upgraded and normal)

http://i.imgur.com/xMJdA.jpg

[inFeZa]

Originally Posted by XanT

Range comparison for Phoenixes (upgraded and normal)

http://i.imgur.com/xMJdA.jpg

thats fair for a Fleet Bacon upgrade.
now i hope to see some more phoenix to carrier tranisitions

Quick Comments

TAXanT:

[Asrathiel]

Originally Posted by XanT

Range comparison for Phoenixes (upgraded and normal)

http://i.imgur.com/xMJdA.jpg

That's quite a nice difference

[Rageboredguy]

I must say i think blizzard are in the right area this time. Mules on gold change nobody is really upset about... But perhaps make the change to snipe against massive units? Ultras and Broodlords are the only 2 biological massive units around (that i can think of) this way it doesn't effect any other part of the game. And the phoenix change is a good one, mutas are way too good against toss, they are meant to be harassers, not fight the army straight up. At this rate phoenixes may become a must against zerg, but thats not a bad thing, there are always overlords to be popped and drones to be harassed.

But the main thing is how well blizz have done actually hitting the right areas, maybe not perfect changes but they have realized some of the major issues today.

Shocked me anyway..

[Xenomorph]

Forgive me if someone has already posted this but... Couldn't the phoneix range upgrade also have some effect on PvT late game? They would be a lot more effective against vikings, therefore allowing collosi to live+kill terran. The snipe nerf I agree with, I mean cmon guys the ghost counter both our tier 3 and infestor units...

Quick Comments

Nemo:

Agreed. It's a Colossi + Phoenixes buff to watch.

[iRLpuku]

Originally Posted by Xenomorph

The snipe nerf I agree with, I mean cmon guys the ghost counter both our tier 3 and infestor units...

the marine counters every unit in the zerg army.. i think blizz should consider removing the marine too. perhaps a nerf was needed. but probably to 30 to 35 damage should be the right number.

my fellow terrans.. time to put more time into practice and less discussion on balance issues.

[VB_davidbloop]

As a Terran I'm not so much worried about the nerfs but more worried about the Pheonix buff. I can see them being used a lot to help stop the threat of vikings against colossus.

[ToRSmotPokingFish]

Originally Posted by davidbloop

As a Terran I'm not so much worried about the nerfs but more worried about the Pheonix buff. I can see them being used a lot to help stop the threat of vikings against colossus.

even harder for terran to beat lategame :/

[ToRsLeePiNz]

hmm PvP - War of the worlds? i think stargate phx range upgrade would help alot more now ....

[crAzerk]

What implications would the Phoenix buff have ? Does this mean they can literally kite Mutalisks forever now? (before they could already do so quite well, now even better?)

I like the MULE nerf, makes just a little bit less ridiculous (though still quite )

[NvPinder]

Originally Posted by crAzerk

What implications would the Phoenix buff have ? Does this mean they can literally kite Mutalisks forever now? (before they could already do so quite well, now even better?)

Yeah, literally exactly that, before we only had 1 extra range than a muta, so kiting was actually quite difficult to do without taking hits if the zerg was good at running around -> turning around to attack -> run away -> turn around to attack. With the upgrade we will have 3 range on them which will make it piss easy.

Quick Comments

inFeZa:

Correct. Not to mention the lag trying to kite mutas then they turn around, and you're trying to chase without flying directly at them and then they just turn around and poof goes all your phoenix.

[MooZfY]

I think more protoss are going for Colossus Phoenix now O_O

[NvPinder]

Originally Posted by zoomforyou

I think more protoss are going to go Colossus Phoenix now O_O

Collosi pheonix compositions were alrdy pretty cost innefficient vs ghost-viking-MMM. Paying 400/300 for an upgrade that really doesnt change all that much at all (the vikings still just face-rape the collosi while the phoenix do relatively piss-weak dmg to them, leaving you with usually a bunch of energyless phoenix after every fight because theyve been EMPd) I dont think would even be remotely worth it compared to normal HT/archon + collosi + gateway compositions.

[wTlzq]

seems like the zerg deathball of BL,corrupters and infestors have another problem other than the mama vortex now :P

[faithHunter]

I'm Terran and for some reason I like this patch. About time they did something with MULES on Gold. This is the right decision Blizz should be making IMO (Making MULES mine the same amount of minerals on gold as they do on regular mineral patches). From what I read on the Ghost Snipe Nerf, it can be said that Blizz wants to make Ghosts more of an anti-spellcaster unit. The Phoenix range upgrade will probably make Ling Muta a lot weaker in general, and we will see Protosses going for Phoenixes AND maybe even Carriers since you also get Carrier tech for teching to Fleet Beacon.


Patch conclusion:

+ Show +

GOOD FOR PROTOSS, BAD FOR TERRAN, EEEEEEYEAAAAHHHHH

Quick Comments

Rageboredguy:

Psy reference :D

[inFeZa]

Originally Posted by neozxa

I'm Terran and for some reason I like this patch. About time they did something with MULES on Gold. This is the right decision Blizz should be making IMO (Making MULES mine the same amount of minerals on gold as they do on regular mineral patches). From what I read on the Ghost Snipe Nerf, it can be said that Blizz wants to make Ghosts more of an anti-spellcaster unit. The Phoenix range upgrade will probably make Ling Muta a lot weaker in general, and we will see Protosses going for Phoenixes AND maybe even Carriers since you also get Carrier tech for teching to Fleet Beacon.


Patch conclusion:

+ Show +

GOOD FOR PROTOSS, BAD FOR TERRAN, EEEEEEYEAAAAHHHHH

It will be better for mothership tech, not carrier. nobody goes carrier.... except for me.

[faithHunter]

Originally Posted by SQLTt.inFeZa

It will be better for mothership tech, not carrier. nobody goes carrier.... except for me.

Quick Comments

ZC.EvilSWAT:

Even the interceptors refuse to dock at this ship

[iMSystem]

Quick Comments

Xenomorph:

iOrly o_O

[ToRSmotPokingFish]

i think i have done enough ranting, now i have good sleep my thoughts on this patch:

Terran Mules on gold no one can complain about, its been a long time coming

Snipe nerf, i think this was a bit drastic, i think a simple cool down on snipe would of sufficed as if you get too many ghosts you cannot invest in other tech.

As i have not played much protoss i do not know the problems protoss face with mutas, but they could kite with pheonix, i think this upgrade will be good, but it seems the tech would need to be 'rushed' to get it out before mutas, also MOAR MOTHERSHIPS I HOPE

[inFeZa]

IS DAVID KIM HIGH?
lol

[Asrathiel]

Originally Posted by SQLTt.inFeZa

It will be better for mothership tech, not carrier. nobody goes carrier.... except for me.

I had a dude do carriers (and basically nothing else but shitloads of cannons!) the other day But that's bronze, so what can you do, lol

[inFeZa]

Originally Posted by Asrathiel

I had a dude do carriers (and basically nothing else but shitloads of cannons!) the other day But that's bronze, so what can you do, lol

You maybe played vs me. n_n you need a billion cannons to stay alive.

[Eddie]

Seem like reasonable changes.

Question regarding Phoenixes, Graviton Beam would also have increased range from the upgrade?

[NvPinder]

Originally Posted by Eddie

Seem like reasonable changes.

Question regarding Phoenixes, Graviton Beam would also have increased range from the upgrade?

Highly, highly doubtful. Although it would make the (assumed)400/300 investment more worth it if that was the case.

[Asrathiel]

Originally Posted by SQLTt.inFeZa

You maybe played vs me. n_n you need a billion cannons to stay alive.

lol, you smurfing in bronze??

[Peleus]

Wow, great to see an awesome terran give intelligent (seemingly) unbiased insight into the patch, well done iaguz.

[SLCN.Kez]

I think a lot of the reason golds will always be better for terran is because the mule can still mine over the scvs mining the gold base so they still mine it out quicker and get more minerals per minute than other races, also because terran is pretty reliant on minerals and gas isnt as much of an issue unless theyre going mech the more minerals they have the better, where as for zerg or protoss its not highly uncommon to see 1 or 2k minerals banked but have gas as their limiting factor, but I spose atleast they changed it somewhat

[|Erasmus|]

Originally Posted by kez

I think a lot of the reason golds will always be better for terran is because the mule can still mine over the scvs mining the gold base so they still mine it out quicker and get more minerals per minute than other races, also because terran is pretty reliant on minerals and gas isnt as much of an issue unless theyre going mech the more minerals they have the better, where as for zerg or protoss its not highly uncommon to see 1 or 2k minerals banked but have gas as their limiting factor, but I spose atleast they changed it somewhat

Not at all. Terran gets mules because protoss gets to chronoboost probes and zerg gets inject so they can both outproduce Terran in workers. So if mules mine the same amount regardless of where you drop them, it's actually disadvantageous for Terran to drop them on gold precisely because you are mining it out faster without the faster income the gold -should- be providing.

[iMSystem]

Originally Posted by |Erasmus|

Not at all. Terran gets mules because protoss gets to chronoboost probes and zerg gets inject so they can both outproduce Terran in workers. So if mules mine the same amount regardless of where you drop them, it's actually disadvantageous for Terran to drop them on gold precisely because you are mining it out faster without the faster income the gold -should- be providing.

While you make a good point of mining out gold bases faster, it isn't really that much of an issue.

If you accommodate to the influx of money you will get then it is still a bonus. Sure it is only temporary advantage, but I still think your dumb not to drop mules onto a gold patches for the pure fact you don't mind to mine it out fast.

Think of it this way, TvT both players are just mining minerals and producing marines / barracks, and that is it, both macroing perfectly, the only variable is that one Terran player is dropping mules on the Gold, where the other isn't.

During the Mules being dropped, the gold muling player has a temporary advantage as his income will be greater than the non-muling terran, thus giving him higher rate of production, which then leads onto more food towards units and, should we say, a slight timing attack to hit when he has a slightly greater food count.

Of course the advantage will run out and will become even again, but for a short amount of time, there is a slight advantage in the Terran that is popping mules on the Gold that I really think it isn't too much of an issue to worry about mining out a gold base quicker than normal.

[Stallion]

Originally Posted by |Erasmus|

Not at all. Terran gets mules because protoss gets to chronoboost probes and zerg gets inject so they can both outproduce Terran in workers. So if mules mine the same amount regardless of where you drop them, it's actually disadvantageous for Terran to drop them on gold precisely because you are mining it out faster without the faster income the gold -should- be providing.

yes in that way it does disadvantage terrans but gold bases are a lot harder to secure for the other races as it is (especially protoss). The issue was the fact a terran could have next to no workers land a base on the gold and drop 20 mules and get a ridiculous income for a few minutes that gives them an enormous advantage. now the bonus from a gold base shall be even which is good.

[breadfan]

Originally Posted by kez

I think a lot of the reason golds will always be better for terran is because the mule can still mine over the scvs mining the gold base so they still mine it out quicker and get more minerals per minute than other races, also because terran is pretty reliant on minerals and gas isnt as much of an issue unless theyre going mech the more minerals they have the better, where as for zerg or protoss its not highly uncommon to see 1 or 2k minerals banked but have gas as their limiting factor, but I spose atleast they changed it somewhat

Bit of a fallacy there - it gives no more an advantage than any other mineral patch. Terrans may still choose to mule golds to deplete them faster, because it means that if their base gets killed off they'll have mined out more gold than they otherwise would have, but the overall income is no different whether they mule a gold base or their main.

[mGGDaedalus]

I don't think phoenix needed a buff, but at the same time I really don't think this buff will change much. When you consider you have to get a fleet beacon, and then buy the upgrade and research time, by that point in the game mutas should already have done their job if used correctly, and the zerg will probably have switched tech on their 4-6 base economy.

The mule change and ghost nerf makes me all warm and fuzzy inside as a zerg. Is it too drastic? I don't know, but I'm not gonna complain

[Stallion]

ok my point of view as a protoss player seeing these is this

mule nerf needed to happen to keep gold bases in the game
snipe decrease needed to happen as zvt late game looked really one sided
phenox nerf as pender said the upgrade most likly won't get used but in the situation they go muta and you've got phenox already its something nice to add in and should help the micro issues vs muta
APM change cool as i like to see the spam apm

game play wise I think the big change will be in TvZ late game with ghosts now longer just killing everything. PvZ i think we will see less muta plays unless you go a non stargate build and they go 3 base muta but even then them switching into muta isnt a massive issue i think it'll allow your 3 stargate play end game that phenox pumping is a viable option with the range increase buff so I believe less mutas will be used and it'll be more curropter heavy plays late game.

[Satu]

Patch change threads: The only place where you can rage about imbalance and not be called a noob

[NvPinder]

Originally Posted by SatuSPR

Patch change threads: The only place where you can rage about imbalance and not be called a noob

To be fair, most of us are absolutely thinking it with half these posts, however I'm too nervous to downvote people because I wouldn't be the first person banned for doing it ^^;;

[Peleus]

Originally Posted by SatuSPR

Patch change threads: The only place where you can rage about imbalance and not be called a noob

I love satu, he is the nicest person ever.

Quick Comments

	TAXanT:	Not nice
	ROOTPetraeus:	LOL

[ROOT`iaguz]

Reading into the ghost change a bit more I get the impression Blizzard wants us to use them to kill infestors and whilst this sounds ******* HARD rather then just sniping the shit out of everything it kinda makes sense. Snipe took 3 shots to kill an infestor, now it takes 2. This means I can have say 3-5 ghosts and when Zerg's running in the little buggers then I can focus on trying to pick 'em all off quick before they plop fungals. Once Zerg run out of fungals their late game units are terrible. Ultras cannot function without fungal they just die to tanks and marauders. Broodlords cannot function without fungal they die to everything except the tanks. The main exception to this is when you play an ultra passive TvZ lategame and the zerg builds up an enormous brood/corruptor/infestor/queen ball and nothing you have can ******* touch that.

I'm not sure what I have to do there, other then simply avoid that game state because when you get to it it means the Terran has lost.

Quick Comments

	TAEdgE:	dont know what to do on shakuras with a lead vs terran personally :D
	iMSystem:	Is the font colour in my posts white? I said this before haha.
	Nemo:	Wise

[LordByrnsy]

Originally Posted by xGKingiaguz

Reading into the ghost change a bit more I get the impression Blizzard wants us to use them to kill infestors and whilst this sounds ******* HARD rather then just sniping the shit out of everything it kinda makes sense. Snipe took 3 shots to kill an infestor, now it takes 2. This means I can have say 3-5 ghosts and when Zerg's running in the little buggers then I can focus on trying to pick 'em all off quick before they plop fungals. Once Zerg run out of fungals their late game units are terrible. Ultras cannot function without fungal they just die to tanks and marauders. Broodlords cannot function without fungal they die to everything except the tanks. The main exception to this is when you play an ultra passive TvZ lategame and the zerg builds up an enormous brood/corruptor/infestor/queen ball and nothing you have can ******* touch that.

I'm not sure what I have to do there, other then simply avoid that game state because when you get to it it means the Terran has lost.

NUUUKKEEESSSS!!! xD

[SmirkToT]

pew pew pew pew pew pew

[nGenLight]

suck it beadface

Quick Comments

LordByrnsy:

u mean beardface right? :P

[crAzerk]

@System

I don't get you. If I understand MULE change correctly, the amount harvested by a MULE is equal on gold and normal, not MULE = SCV-mining-gold.
Why then will MULEharvesting on gold lead to a higher income than MULEharvesting on normal patch?

EDIT: Sorry you were talking about the status quo aren't you >< thought you meant. Post-patch

EDIT2: No wait you ARE talking about post patch. I'm on ERASMUS's side on it, but while it WILL disadvantage Terran, but not make Terran disadvantaged. (i.e. it's a nerf on a previous imbalance)

[iMSystem]

Originally Posted by crAzerk

I don't get you. If I understand MULE change correctly, the amount harvested by a MULE is equal on gold and normal, not MULE = SCV-mining-gold.
Why then will MULEharvesting on gold lead to a higher income than MULEharvesting on normal patch?

Oh right, I assumed that a MULE mining the gold will mine at the rate of a SCV mining the gold :S

Mis-read on my part sorry

[jayaiwhy]

Will people really get Fleet Beacon to get Phoenix upgrade? .____.

When I play as P, I just push out before they have a critical mass and win...

[nirvAnA]

I like the phoenix upgrade, but if it was in the cybernetics core and took a longer time to get, rather then in the fleet bacon as that would limit the use of the range upgrade to only late game.

Quick Comments

TAXanT:

[zealous]

On the phoenix:
how will then the phoenix buff affect TvP?
phoenix will be included in the ball and medivacs will go down much faster,
how will it fair against vikings?

us terrans uses turrets when going out of base, iiric toss have cannons?

On the snipe:
On the lower league levels, rarely do we reach sniping ultra/broods,
guess we dont have enough apm for it actually,
now that we know it'll be harder, we will be more inclined to finish the game early..just saying

[Benji]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

I like the phoenix upgrade, but if it was in the cybernetics core and took a longer time to get, rather then in the fleet bacon as that would limit the use of the range upgrade to only late game.

I think that's the intention, small amounts of mutas can be handled by small groups of phoenix or blink stalker, but that massive ball they get up and wait until you move out and base trade with is countered this way.

Also gives the zerg opportunity to fake going mass muta, to force the phoenix w Beacon reaction and hit with an infestor roach hydra army or something.

All just speculation, have to see how its played out once the patch hits.

[ROOT`iaguz]

How will the phoenix buff affect TvP?

Not at all. Phoenixes are a unit you make when you want to lose games of TvP and if the Protoss can pay for a Fleet Beacon and for things that require a fleet beacon then they've probably already won. Phoenixes are not an answer to medivacs and vikings, stalkers and psi storms are the answer to these things.

Quick Comments

zealous:

i see! ..just remember before my opponent had stalk colo n phoenix, my medivacs were sniped down so quickly

[breadfan]

Originally Posted by xGKingiaguz

How will the phoenix buff affect TvP?

Not at all. Phoenixes are a unit you make when you want to lose games of TvP and if the Protoss can pay for a Fleet Beacon and for things that require a fleet beacon then they've probably already won. Phoenixes are not an answer to medivacs and vikings, stalkers and psi storms are the answer to these things.

Not to mention that as a Protoss, you can already include Phoenixes in your ball to shoot medivacs and vikings if that's what you desire.

[iM MaFia]

they finally realised that ghosts r op just like when they nerfed infestors

Quick Comments

nGenLight:

hahahahahhahahahahahahahahaahah

[Dox]

Lots of misunderstanding on this page about MULE's. A Terran player who drops MULE's on a gold base in the next patch is LOSING money. You'd have to be very silly to make this mistake.

SCV mines 7 minerals per trip.
MULE mines 5 minerals per trip.
For each MULE you drop on a Gold Mineral patch, you're literally dissolving ~120 minerals. You should only drop them on blue minerals, regardless of saturation.

EDIT: gonna edit this post when I get home from work, I'm reading it on my phone atm and it's worded very poorly. Misleading.

[|Erasmus|]

Originally Posted by Dox

Lots of misunderstanding on this page about MULE's. A Terran player who drops MULE's on a gold base in the next patch is LOSING money. You'd have to be very silly to make this mistake.

SCV mines 7 minerals per trip.
MULE mines 5 minerals per trip.
For each MULE you drop on a Gold Mineral patch, you're literally dissolving ~120 minerals. You should only drop them on blue minerals, regardless of saturation.

That's what I said right at the start about a Terran being disadvantaged by mules on gold now...

Not the biggest deal, but still.

[Trusty]

Originally Posted by |Erasmus|

That's what I said right at the start about a Terran being disadvantaged by mules on gold now...

Not the biggest deal, but still.

You don't lose any minerals..... the minerals are still there.......

Just dropping on a gold or blue won't make a difference to your income rate.

It's not like the mule will deduct 7mins frmo the patch, and only give you 5 back lol...

[[TA]LoSt]

Originally Posted by Trusty

You don't lose any minerals..... the minerals are still there.......

Just dropping on a gold or blue won't make a difference to your income rate.

It's not like the mule will deduct 7mins frmo the patch, and only give you 5 back lol...

I understand what you're saying. The point is that by using MULEs on the blue mineral patches instead of the gold, you prolong the availability of gold mineral patches in the game. Any SCV at a gold mineral base is theoretically 140% more effective than those SCVs mining blue minerals. By using MULEs on the gold you are not taking full advantage of this productivity increase with the SCVs, which you would need more of mining the blue patches if you'd like to achieve the same income.

Sure, when a gold base is completely mined out you will have the same amount of minerals in the end regardless of whether or not you popped MULEs on it or not, but that was the same as before this patch. The balance change effects the productivity of SCVs and their ability to gather 1.4x more per trip, if you put MULEs at a gold base it gets mined out faster and wastes the opportunity for the SCVs to utilise this increase.

By the way, this patch is LIVE ON SEA for anyone who has not patched-back since going on NA.

EDIT: Did they mess up EAPM and APM? EAPM is meant to be the old one (Effective Actions Per Minute) and APM is meant to be the one that counts every click (like it used to), however in all these replays I'm watching EAPM is around 200-300 and APM still sits at around ~70 early game?

Quick Comments

TAriiChard:

boss!

[breadfan]

Originally Posted by [TA]LoSt

EDIT: Did they mess up EAPM and APM? EAPM is meant to be the old one (Effective Actions Per Minute) and APM is meant to be the one that counts every click (like it used to), however in all these replays I'm watching EAPM is around 200-300 and APM still sits at around ~70 early game?

I noticed this while playing on NA, it seems they did.

[breadfan]

Originally Posted by Dox

Lots of misunderstanding on this page about MULE's. A Terran player who drops MULE's on a gold base in the next patch is LOSING money. You'd have to be very silly to make this mistake.

SCV mines 7 minerals per trip.
MULE mines 5 minerals per trip.
For each MULE you drop on a Gold Mineral patch, you're literally dissolving ~120 minerals. You should only drop them on blue minerals, regardless of saturation.

EDIT: gonna edit this post when I get home from work, I'm reading it on my phone atm and it's worded very poorly. Misleading.

Mules will still mine 30 minerals per trip right? They just won't get the bonus 12 they currently get (total 42 minerals/trip muling a gold patch today).

Assuming this is the case, then that's not right at all.

There is only X number of minerals available to mine. By muling a gold base, you mine out the gold base faster. The mule will mine the same as it does on a blue base. There aren't magically more minerals that get mined if you use an SCV to mine.

Quick Comments

mGGDaedalus:

[inFeZa]

all the more reason to make an unbreakable PF at the gold now T_T

[Dox]

Don't you mean less of a reason?

[|Erasmus|]

He meant mules aren't horribly broken on gold bases, so one extra orbital is less worth it when you can planetary a gold base on some maps (like say, metal)

[TABiggun]

I think they made a mistake. It's meant to say

"There was a lot of concern and debate regarding whether APM should be a fun, play style distinguishing factor or it should be an accurate number like it has been traditionally."

Or even:

"There was a lot of concern and debate regarding whether APM should be a random, meaningless number or it should be an accurate number like it has been traditionally."

[FaDeBadger]

APM stands for Actions per minute. Meaningless actions should still be counted in this. I like the change to Commands per minute, which is what we are using currently under the tag of APM.

Having both serves the purpose of making everybody happy.

[Zealo]

when does this patch actually kick in? i thought it would be with the new season but no patch when i logged in...

[NioXin]

THis change is obviously going to make the tournaments more enjoyable... although I been watch this MLG and the changes arent making an epic difference

[Peleus]

What you say is true lost, however golds are typically in more exposed locations, so it may be beneficial mining it out quicker even at the cost of worker efficiency. Not as clear cut as it seems.