[Apth]

Originally Posted by FaDeMeatex

DeltaV production tab hacker
Played this guy on ladder a few times and he had a very odd ability to sense what I was doing every time.
Going to save future replays as evidence as don't think I have any saved from the earlier times

http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=766

• Doesn't scout your expo
• Puts up a whole heap of cannons in anticipation of a Roach rush he doesn't know is coming

Indicative of hacking? Yes.
Proof? Unfortunately not.

I'd say that in all likelihood this guy is hacking, but unfortunately this is one of the instances of suspicious behaviour that could be explained away by game sense or random chance.

IMO - benefit of the doubt for now, any further evidence will be the nail in the coffin.

[TABjornbrandr]

Originally Posted by Theend

It happens to me when i play random.
My opp said at the start of game example "dont 6p me"
Oh Pls.... i was playing random..... i have replay if u want see.
We cant prevent other from doing "whatever" they like.
As long as we play fair all is good i think
my2c

That could easily stem from the fact that Random players are notorious for cheesing and with 6-pools being one of the most easily recognised cheeses, him saying that isn't necessarily indicative of him hacking.

@crazerk, I'd assume PiG saw that the thread had been posted in recently (by Meatex) and assumed that Ghost's response was current. Accident, nothing more.

[Meatex]

granted i didn't save the replays but if you watch the timing its pretty clearly reactive. I haven't played sc2 much for a while and certainly not against him or I'd have the replays
Not to mention a protoss will drop 2 cannons if he is worried about roach ling all in... not 4

In my eyes he is confirmed hacker but yeah we'll see if I play him more and can get more replays

[Eldrid]

Originally Posted by FaDeMeatex

DeltaV production tab hacker
Played this guy on ladder a few times and he had a very odd ability to sense what I was doing every time.
Going to save future replays as evidence as don't think I have any saved from the earlier times

http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=766

+ Show +

This one at 4:30 he has probe position at his FFE wall waiting possibly to drop cyber core
My roach warren goes down and few seconds later he puts pylon where he'd want his cyber core and adds a second cannon. I denied his fake scouting (as he doesn't even click it into my base just clicks it below the ramp outside my natural)
You could argue that maybe he just wanted to be safe but he continues to add 2 additional cannons for a total of 4. Not to mention he made one zealot he sent to the tower that I killed with 4 lings. He had no vision no prompt to make 4 cannons and go straight for sentries and chronoing his warpgate while holding position a probe and sentry at gap in the wall.
His actions are while not 100% definitive, are absolutely indicative of reactionary play to an all in he knows is coming that he shouldn't have

I watched this replay, and it seems a little sus.

Just on the making of the 4 cannons:

I have played protoss (and have them in my clan, and have talked to them about their decision making on this exact topic...)
When a protoss scouts gas first, and then CANT scout if you make an expansion due to having their probe killed (he did try to scout your expo, your lings killed it before it saw anything) the only safe way to play is to drop 3-4 cannons *incase* you roach all-in (practiced this all-in extensively, i learnt to deny scouting as you did, and this was the only way my clan-mates could stop the all in after having scouting denied). You cant react, you need to have defense up "just in case".

This is GM level decision making though. I dont actually know if it applies to a diamond level game. Perhaps this particular player loses to roach allin's alot and just made the cannons for safety? i don't know. I would label this as suspicious, certainly, but he did scout your gas first *however* he didnt scout if you went over 100 gas aka speed -> pull off gas -> economy only with speed build, this is the part that makes me suspicious.

Need more replays to confirm 30000% certainty.

Quick Comments

nGenLight:

Thats right, if we are blind we are forced necessary defence for potential all in

[Theend]

Originally Posted by FaDeBjornbrandr

That could easily stem from the fact that Random players are notorious for cheesing and with 6-pools being one of the most easily recognised cheeses, him saying that isn't necessarily indicative of him hacking.

u dont get it... right when the game start as early as first few second and someone tell u that.
so he has 6th sense to think of 6pool when the chance of zerg is 1/3?
edit:how do i upload a replay? im sry for nub question

[crAzerk]

@Bjornbrandr Yea well I'm not one of those who neg repped him

@ Everyone

It's good to post in here to catch potential hackers and stuff, but I would like to encourage everyone to save your posts for until you have good reason to believe the person is hacking.
And by good reason I mean :
- One replay of the person blatantly hacking (i.e. glancing into fog repeatedly)
- Multiple replays of the person reacting blindly but perfectly (e.g. Meatex's replay)
- Multiple replays of any other suspicious behavior
- In all cases, more replays are better than less.

If you post just a single replay without much to go on, it unnecessarily tarnishes the person's name and reputation. I'm sure you wouldn't want that for yourself!

Quick Comments

	Apth:	Multiple replays or incredibly obvious
	Eldrid:	Multiple replays or incredibly obvious
	iMSystem:	Multiple replays or incredibly obvious?

[PiG]

yeah posting on phone ftl. also drunk and hence yes way too harsh . Still retarded attitude when it said he was only confirmed until he posts reps... and instead just loses his shit as if an institution was silencing him and he is just a hopeless freedom fighter or something ridiculous.

Really gets on my nerves when people think they're amazing because they make it to the "top" of SEA ladder and therefore the server is bad. Too stupid to comprehend that ladder is alot "easier" then the top players on it and that a server with 1/20th the players of any other serve will have 1/20th less pros and hence GM on SEA is not the same as GM on NA/EU/KR. 200 players here is actually a big % unlike on those servers.

Koreans get to the top of NA doing the DUMBEST builds I have ever seen literally just having better mechanics then their opponents. Ruff holds rank 1 GM on NA doing mass reaper rushes... ladder, enough said.

derp lets insult the server instead of arguing a few points and redeeming ourselves...

Quick Comments

	TAEdgE:
	asdfSchnitzel:

[Eldrid]

^ cant rep, but agree with everything~

Quick Comments

	Apth:	Can't rep Pig, giving to Eldrid instead
	asdfSchnitzel:	I rep both! <3

[nGenLight]

If your a recognised player, it's game sense.

If you are a nobody, it's hacking.

I could make a lot of decisions based on tells I wouldn't let anybody know about (so they won't try to meta-game my tells). How can one possibly judge ones decision making? Unless its blatant hacking, its really hard to judge. We do not have the technology to do so, which is really disheartening.

E.g - I would make extra cannons based soley on what I see from my opponents natural when I scout it again. Yeah hide them queens and drones so I'll make useless cannons!

Quick Comments

Eldrid:

plz tell? :D

[iM yang]

You never know what people's experiences are. Maybe this guy has lost to roach allins before and he's just straight up made the decision to blind build 4 cannons if somebody goes gas first and doesn't scout the natural hatchery.

[Nemo]

Originally Posted by xGKingLight

If your a recognised player, it's game sense.

If you are a nobody, it's hacking.

I could make a lot of decisions based on tells I wouldn't let anybody know about (so they won't try to meta-game my tells). How can one possibly judge ones decision making? Unless its blatant hacking, its really hard to judge. We do not have the technology to do so, which is really disheartening.

E.g - I would make extra cannons based soley on what I see from my opponents natural when I scout it again. Yeah hide them queens and drones so I'll make useless cannons!

It's generally more basic than that. It's generally you make random choices without absolutely any scouting after the first drone scout. And then each time, and a big number of times, you make spot on the right choice without seeing anything.

It's not just reacting to what your scout see or don't see, but reacting without any sort of information.

Meatex, I will watch the replay when I'm back home tonight.

[Meatex]

I'm sorry as much as you might not want to draw conclusions one a single replay with no obvious map hacking no matter how I look at it - even when I try to find reasons I cannot come up with anything that makes sense and does not equate to losing games

I left the game because I'm just not interested in playing a hacker. And while this is the only replay I remember thinking he was a hacker before too.

In GM level there may be valid points to making extra cannons because you are unsure but that doesn't address the timing of his so called scout nor does it address that he basically sends the probe to die by actually a-moving to the bottom of the ramp at my natural.
Also note his supply right before my roaches arrive - that is he has had no indication of any all in. And this is when he has only 1 gate. There is no reason he would be spending that money on an additional pylon - given where he placed it - unless he knew an attack was coming and didn't want the 2 pylons already there to unpower his excessive cannon count. At 30/44 no less.

I also noted his reaction right after I dropped my roach warren. He was supply blocked but was making a pylon in his main. Granted he may just be retarded so he made 2 pylons though why he wouldn't prefer to spend that money on... you know more than 1 gateway. Cause he'll be safe for sure against an attack he has no idea is coming in theory but he won't be able to do anything. He can't even tech what with only 1 gas.

Maybe he planned the wall that way from the beginning, maybe his mechanics really are so bad that he has one gate and a free 20 supply with another pylon on the way. He is protoss after all and you don't exactly have to be good to win as protoss
Or more logically he is hacking as not even a platinum would lose in a macro game to this guy that gets supply blocked at 18 for a painfully long time and counters that by getting 3 pylons ahead in supply. Then makes 4 cannons - no gates and late gas meaning any tech is going to be late. All this against the most standard of standard ZvP builds in diamond - speedling expo.
I am the first to criticize blizzard on their fail coding but not even I can fathom how a protoss can get into diamond by playing such a style as his standard against 14/14 regardless of how OP protoss may be

[nGenLight]

Originally Posted by Nemo

It's generally more basic than that. It's generally you make random choices without absolutely any scouting after the first drone scout. And then each time, and a big number of times, you make spot on the right choice without seeing anything.

It's not just reacting to what your scout see or don't see, but reacting without any sort of information.

Meatex, I will watch the replay when I'm back home tonight.

I disagree, I sometimes respond to things that I don't see coming simply for the fact that there is a potential that it is coming. Isn't that what being a safe player is all about? Maybe this accused player just likes being safe on 4 cannons and not dying to Roach rushes. You don't know that. Does me making cannons at my mineral lines after a roach push to prepare for a muta switch make me a hacker? He could easily be continueing massing roaches or going another tech, I cannon up because without so a muta switch would end the game, this is simply playing safe. It would be nice with perfect information, but without it I can only make guesses on imperfect information WHICH WILL KEEP ME ALIVE. I recall MC blindly making 3 cannons and a Stargate to defend Idras Hatch cancel all ins in a particular MLG. Does this make MC a hacker? Or does MC see something we don't see or perhaps simply being safe?

What constitutes as "information" varies from person to person. People may gather information from various places/experience. Therefore some people may not be as playing blindly as you think because of their indept knowledge at what might happen at certain times. I remember a period where I never scouted in PvT because I had a build that universally stopped everything.

[Sc2Clare]

not trying to be an a** but meatex has the tendency to call people hackers if he loses to them on ladder

*had it happened to me b4~~~

[Nemo]

Originally Posted by xGKingLight

I disagree, I sometimes respond to things that I don't see coming simply for the fact that there is a potential that it is coming. Isn't that what being a safe player is all about? Maybe this accused player just likes being safe on 4 cannons and not dying to Roach rushes. You don't know that. Does me making cannons at my mineral lines after a roach push to prepare for a muta switch make me a hacker? He could easily be continueing massing roaches or going another tech, I cannon up because without so a muta switch would end the game, this is simply playing safe. It would be nice with perfect information, but without it I can only make guesses on imperfect information WHICH WILL KEEP ME ALIVE. I recall MC blindly making 3 cannons and a Stargate to defend Idras Hatch cancel all ins in a particular MLG. Does this make MC a hacker? Or does MC see something we don't see or perhaps simply being safe?

I don't speak about this game I haven't watched yet, but about the other hackers before in this thread. For all of them that were "confirmed" we had blatant hack (those corruptors sniping the Mothership), confession, or too much too suspect moves or decisions.

Edit:

Originally Posted by iVnClare

not trying to be an a** but meatex has the tendency to call people hackers if he loses to them on ladder

*had it happened to me b4~~~

Don't introduce your personal grudges in here please. Judge the case on the evidence we have. Thanks.

[Zealo]

Originally Posted by lzq

What is the league of DeltaV?

high diamond

Originally Posted by FaDeMeatex

DeltaV production tab hacker
Played this guy on ladder a few times and he had a very odd ability to sense what I was doing every time.
Going to save future replays as evidence as don't think I have any saved from the earlier times

http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=766

+ Show +

This one at 4:30 he has probe position at his FFE wall waiting possibly to drop cyber core
My roach warren goes down and few seconds later he puts pylon where he'd want his cyber core and adds a second cannon. I denied his fake scouting (as he doesn't even click it into my base just clicks it below the ramp outside my natural)
You could argue that maybe he just wanted to be safe but he continues to add 2 additional cannons for a total of 4. Not to mention he made one zealot he sent to the tower that I killed with 4 lings. He had no vision no prompt to make 4 cannons and go straight for sentries and chronoing his warpgate while holding position a probe and sentry at gap in the wall.
His actions are while not 100% definitive, are absolutely indicative of reactionary play to an all in he knows is coming that he shouldn't have

my search of my ladder history brought up 3 replays. in none of them was he doing things like look at my base through fog or anything else i would consider obvious signs of hacking.

+ Show +

replay 1, 28/07/2011: a 4v4, deltaV left at the 2 minute mark. no evidence of hacking

replay 2, 14/02/2012: i 10 pool ling all in, he scouts the pool and gas as they go down then leaves a probe at my natural and goes double gas > DT. probe at my nat makes me think he's not prod tab hacking or map hacking, as he would know if i expanded without the probe there, and bringing probe home to mine would be reasonable to do (ie, not considerred a tell he's hacking)

replay 3, 16/02/2012: http://drop.sc/118896
shakuras - i do a 1 base marine medivac all in. his total scouting consists of his probe seeing my 13 rax/14 gas

+ Show +

(after doing this weird thing where he scouts my ramp then checks the other base. i can understand doing that vs terran (which he would know with prod tab hacks), but PvP or PvZ (or PvT against someone who doesn't bother walling vs toss) there would be nothing at the ramp for him to see and he'd be better off spending 3 seconds walking the probe in further)

then a zealot seeing 3 marines at my ramp (and no expo/bunker on the low ground) just before stim finishes. (ie, he knows i have a barracks that has been making marines) production tab would reveal i have a reactoron my 2nd rax and a factory about to finish. his response is to throw down a collosus den and a third gateway, making colossus and stalkers. production tab reveals i am getting a techlab, 3 marines at a time and a starport, he expands. at this point his obs finishes (was supply blocked for ages so very late) and goes directly to my base (not worried about cloak banshees?) no further analysis is possible as he can see everything i'm doing anyway.

how does a player with terrible macro get to high diamond doing shit like 1 base 3gate stalker+colossus, then expanding because he has 700 minerals, (almost totally) blindly?

if you assume he's not hacking, you can argue; he was planning to do a one base colossus all in (?) then decided not too (because he saw 3 marines and no expo on the low ground?) and expanded instead. OR he was doing a super safe expansion opening (?). both seem unlikely at high diamond level.

if you assume he has prod tab hack, you can argue; colossus are a response to seeing i'm going pure marine, no expansion is in response to seeing i haven't even started a CC on my high ground. he has the option of doing some sort of timing to punish my expansion, but decides against it when he realises i'm making tanks and a starport instead of a CC. instead he expands, knowing all he has to do to win is hold off my push and use his tech and income advantage to roll me in a macro game.

either way, his decision making in both games is so bad i don't want to use it as evidence against him.

tl;dr it wouldn't surprise me if he makes 4 cannons blindly every time he FFEs, need more replays if you want to accuse him of anything.

[Meatex]

I do believe at that MLG he had some kind of scouting information
Regardless light have you watched the replay?

I can understand making 2 cannons in your mineral lines to be safe from mutas, drops etc. That is usually done later in the game where you income can handle the extra cannons without harming your econ or army too much for very long.
This guys makes 4 cannons VERY early. Second cannon at 4:30.
Can you honestly say that you would drop money on extra pylons so your cannons stay up, later gas, no gates and 4 cannons after seeing a 14/14 and losing your zealot at the tower to 4 lings - which happened well after the extra cannons anyway.
Now lets so you do. What happens then when the zerg made 4 lings and mass drones while taking a third. Not only because you are on one gateway for so long could you do nothing to prevent the zerg from getting perfect mid game econ up easily. all possible tech would be delayed because you don't have a great deal of gas.
The cannons simply do not make any sense unless he was going for stargate or DT tech but he simply didn't have the gas for it as well as he was chronoing his warpgate. Especially as he was going straight for sentries out of that one gateway.

Here is what I understand of PvZ - now i'm not light but please do refute anything I say if its utterly incorrect.
When I have tried the same roach ling all in the biggest weakness is that first zealot. If the protoss sends that out to scout it will see the roaches and there will be enough time to drop extra cannons. I have seen the same in pro games as well. So it seems a pretty common play. Maybe you put a second cannon if you can't confirm expo or guys off gas then send the zealot and he will give you enough warning.

Additionally why 4 cannons? I'm fairly certain that barring artosis pylon, 3 cannons will hold with sentries so why make 4 unless you know a lot of stuff is coming?

@Clare
No idea who you are bro so no offense but keep your personal attacks to yourself.
I'm not raging or even mad just disappointed that blizzard are incapable of dealing with hackers effectively and promptly. I report it here because I would rather them take the points - as its clearly all they care about - and me get to move on to a proper game as quickly as possible. Thats my feelings and perhaps others feel the same and would rather leave than to play against someone who is hacking.

[iM yang]

Meatex, you weren't playing against a grandmaster player, maybe Diamond players aren't good enough to hold with 3 cannons and a sentrys. I would definately add on cannons after scouting a 14/14 as that opening is less economic and you can afford the extra defense if they make enough lings to deny scouting.

Making 4 cannons is very similiar to making 1 cannon when denied scouting as either one is weak to a specific thing the zerg does. What makes you so sure that he didn't lose to this SAME allin a bunch of times before and was on tilt? Why is he automatically hacking?
I think you are too quick to call somebody a hacker based on this one game. People do coin-flippy shit ALL the time, get used to it.

Quick Comments

	TAEdgE:
	Zealo:	♥

[wTlzq]

quote from idra: u cant make a read on bad players cause they dont know what they are doing

Quick Comments

xGKingdelete:

[Meatex]

as said in my previous posts - I had played him before couple of times and his game sense was uncannily suss. I will save future replays against him. Zealo also has a replay that shows some rather "good" game sense.
Also nobody in diamond does random 4 cannons... ever. Also given how it most certainly seemed like a reaction to seeing me drop a roach warren. Conjecture perhaps but given how Diamond ZvP is about droning until the protoss does some kind of a move all in and then you die and rage about protoss OP.
So its not so much a coinflip as a 99 sided die and he is banking on it not rolling 1-98.

As much as I doubt you will believe me - I am not being biased. Simply want to save others the wasted time. Try watching the replay and addressing some of the points I made rather than saying he got lucky end of story so QQ somewhere else.