[ToxicTiger]

Hi so I was just wondering what I should be doing with my builds should I be copying food supply or times?

I mean builds dont always work like the other guy might do something different,
but in general is it better to copy times or food supply or maybe its just a preference thing??
or should you start off copying time and when you stop getting supply blocked do it on food???

thank's in advance

[mGGAequitas]

build them when you can/ when you need to get them

for example i have no idea when to build my cybercore time or supply wise
i build it when my gateway finishes.
and i build my gateway as soon as I have the money and can do it without sacrificing any probe production

Quick Comments

MooZfY:

aequitas best advice

[ToRSpookToR]

According to your sc2sea profile you are Zerg so i would definitely go with time ie he is 8 gating me so get a roach warren at 7mins idk. Personally i try to have other cues for my build for example bombers TvT start 2nd gas when you start stim start EB when 2nd gas finishes 3rd gas when starting factory 4 gas addons and marauders when starting starport, i also use times for example when meching vZ 8min 3rd and 4th gases i find it to be more effective as you should be 60 food then however if you lose 4 hellions you wont be and your gas will be delayed .

[mGGDaedalus]

I tend to memorise things by supply more often than timer (although a lot of scouting timings I use the game clock), but it really depends on personal preference. I think I may be in the minority.

I guess the important thing to keep in mind regardless of what way you prefer, is to be aware of how far through a build you are even when the game turns weird. If you deal with some sort of weird cheese at the start of the game and through defending it, transitioned into a "normal" game (but with everything delayed a couple minutes), would you still be able to finish your build? So yeah just being aware why your build is the way it is (do you need a certain amount of drones/gases/hatcheries/minerals/whatever before building X tech buildying or Y group of units, etc)

Quick Comments

ToxicTiger:

yeah that sounds about right too offten I rush back into my build after something happens then I end up with too fewDron

[NvPinder]

As long as it's early enough in the game or a completely standard game where no harass has happened and no abnormalities have happened in terms of scouting/not scouting certain things;

You should be aiming to hit both if you're watching a well refined pro-players build, or even better, bettering it.

EG: If Some pro protoss player is starting his +1 at a set time of a PvZ build, you should look at the supply he's at, and the game time, and aim to match both.

There's no point starting +1 if you're 5 supply down of what he was at the same time he did because you're 5 probes short because you ******* suck and have broken probe production or missed chrono's, your entire build will be fucked because you dont have the econ to keep hitting the timings he is hitting and you will get destroyed by any sort of mediocre timing because the missing money that you dont have would usually go into units or something along those lines, leaving you with not enough to hold the basic attacks that a refined non-greedy build has.

At the same time if you're judging by supply alone, and you go back and watch the rep and notice you're starting +1 30 seconds late, you realize your build must be sub-optimal compared to theirs and you're doing something wrong, because you suck.

Which one you choose to follow in game is more or less irrelevant and preference, the main thing is you analyze the replay afterwards to see if you're hitting both, and if you're not, fixing what isn't lining up.

Quick Comments

ToxicTiger:

Thank you! that all makes perfect sense no (sarcasm)

[PiG]

I often tell my students to measure their builds by drone saturation rather than in-game time or supply for the most part (though specific timings are obviously fantastic guidelines).

This gets you in the habit of monitoring your saturation and teaches you how much income you need to support each step of your build. This comes in very handy in helping you adapt to various pressure/cheese/timing situations that disrupt your build.

Back to original question, I think game-timer is better than supply. Either is fine to learn though.

Quick Comments

	mGGDaedalus:	Option1: learn to count drones. 2: wait for hots trololol
	SLCN.Kez:	this is what i like to do after i learned times, its a good trick

[mGGCyclone]

Build in order not with time or supply.

[NvPinder]

RedHaZard:
Thank you! that all makes perfect sense no (sarcasm)

Legitimately not sure if you mean
"Thank you! that all makes perfect sense (no sarcasm)"
or
"Thank you! That all makes perfect sense now (sarcasm)" - as in, it didn't make sense at all.

><

Quick Comments

mGGAequitas:

lol I thought the same things

[EveSigns]

Everyone above pretty much covered it. just wanna note i prefer game timer as it makes reference to not only where you are at but also the opponent. for example u may have missed a cple of probes but you cant assume he did so u need that roach warren down at (for example) 6:45 in zvp in order to hold off that hypothetically possible +1 zealot timing.

This way even if you make mistakes you can always have a reference point to where you should be/what you must have down so that you can at least try to stay in the game with (following on the above scenario) perhaps a less then ideal drone count rather then dieing outright like you would if you went off ur supply which was skewed due to your mistakes.

Always play with the belief that your opponent is playing optimally until you know otherwise (eg scout a late robo/ you did damage with pressure early etc etc)

[dippa]

for terran, you usually want to go by supply in the very early stages and then switch to time (because there's a myriad of things that can throw your supply off and timings are more important to be wary of).

[ToxicTiger]

Thanks for all replies

Great help

[jayaiwhy]

It hurts my head when Zergs get double gas at 6min just because Stephano does it.

No, if your drone count is not up to par, don't get double gas at 6min, it's just going to hurt you in the long run.

[YourFather]

I feel you need to look at supply at the first 8min, and timing after that... Cause you got to get your foundation right at the start and start looking out for timing attacks after 8min.

[crAzerk]

I've a related question - what happens when early game harass messes up your timings?

e.g. Let's say I normally get 4 gas at 6 minutes (or 50 drones) (it doesn't matter which, this is just a hypothetical situation) in a ZvP.
Then a Zealot Stalker harass comes and catches me off guard, and I am forced to pull drones and lose about 5 drones.
Now, do I still stick to the 50 drones principle (will be later than usual)or the timing principle (will have less drones than usual)?

A more recent game I played was a ZvT, where the T got 8 hellions and ran them into my mineral line, killing more than 10+ drones as I reacted badly. After I cleared it up, I struggled to drone back up as much as I could, as I usually get units after recognizing a certain drone saturation.
What happened next was a follow-up push with MM tanks which took out my 3rd as I didn't have much units from droning, and from there I could never catch back up as he kept denying my 3rd (at different locations too) with packs of MMM.

Now, is this situation a matter of 'you f-cked up too bad in early game, you lost it there', or could I have recovered in a better way?

[PiG]

Originally Posted by crAzerk

I've a related question - what happens when early game harass messes up your timings?

e.g. Let's say I normally get 4 gas at 6 minutes (or 50 drones) (it doesn't matter which, this is just a hypothetical situation) in a ZvP.
Then a Zealot Stalker harass comes and catches me off guard, and I am forced to pull drones and lose about 5 drones.
Now, do I still stick to the 50 drones principle (will be later than usual)or the timing principle (will have less drones than usual)?

A more recent game I played was a ZvT, where the T got 8 hellions and ran them into my mineral line, killing more than 10+ drones as I reacted badly. After I cleared it up, I struggled to drone back up as much as I could, as I usually get units after recognizing a certain drone saturation.
What happened next was a follow-up push with MM tanks which took out my 3rd as I didn't have much units from droning, and from there I could never catch back up as he kept denying my 3rd (at different locations too) with packs of MMM.

Now, is this situation a matter of 'you f-cked up too bad in early game, you lost it there', or could I have recovered in a better way?

Either try to scout what their next aggressive timing is or take a guess at the standard play and try to get to a spot where you can recover as much economy as possible but still hold that timing. Because you're further behind than normal you need to "stim" your economy by focusing purely on economy for a short while aiming for a specific thing.

For instance in the case you descriped that seems like a pretty standard followup. I would say ok, any sort of ground aggression is common from terran next and lings > all terran ground units except mass helions. So I will try to scout if he's going mech but if I can't do this, or I confirm he's going marine-tank then I will drone very hard for a short while, maybe I would stay on 2 gas, get lair just for bane speed and +2 ups and drone natural and 3rd both to 16 drone optimal saturation. This way you have 3 bases saturated on minerals allowing you to build a horde of zerglings, but because you didn't take the extra 4 gas geysers and any other potential tech structures that saves you 5 drones not used on buildings, and another 12 not used mining gas. That's 17 more pairs of zerglings when they hit. And if they don't hit I have a great economy that can transition back into tech very smoothly.

From here just mass ling-bane and scout heavily looking to engage or transition.

You could build a huge army with this off just 54 drones! mmm yummy

[SLCN.Kez]

By that stage (for me atleast) a set "build" where i put x down at y time, i just forgo my build and stick to my principles of what i want to accomplish in the game, and i feel it out.

Typically i use gas as my timer now. I put down buildings/start upgrades bases on when i take my gases and when i can use it, this helps as its completely relevant to how the game has gone up to this stage (as ull take gases sooner/later depending what u scout), and will give you a linear timer of how ur game is going, because if you have to much or to little then ur minerals were/are out of wack, and u need to adjust them.

In terms of getting behind, once i feel im behind i know i can't play standard and need to do something risky to get back in the game or win it. This is either an all in or drone heavily n hope he doesnt push or taking an extra hatch or something, but a lot of the times (in your case specifically with the terran) yes, you did just take to much damage and lost it there.

I dunno, so much of it is experience, and the better players are the ones who know exactly what they need to do when a game gets a bit different out of build orders. (This style which i failed hard at explaining is kind of what day9 teaches, if you have ever seen his stuff).