[oo0zula0oo]

Hey guys~
I just recently played ladder and have been trying a few new builds against a protoss who FFE!
It took me sometime to get the build right but I can see it still needs a lot of fine tuning~

But if you watch this replay it shows how well this build works against protoss who FFE~
Please have a look and let me know what else I can do to improve it~ I think I let my macro slip a bit and that caused a bit of delay but other than that I feel this strat can work wonders to unsuspecting players~

Heres the link to the replay~
http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=514
Zula

[ToRDjvillian]

So what is this strategy in words? I view this site on my iPhone and can't download the replays but I'm always interested in new strats

[oo0zula0oo]

Ah well its a spine crawler rush~ but you can get the spines out faster and also have a better econ than a typical Lair spine rush~
Usually a protoss will scout around their base for a proxy hatch but never will they check just outside their base~ so for my build I go 14 gas 14 pool and instead of getting a hatch at your nat you build a hatch just outside their base where it is hidden from vision~
Protoss would not usually send a probe to scout out near the base especially when there are lings out~ kills the first scouting probe and place a nice hatch hidden near the base and keep droning up! once you have 100 gas take the drones off gas and just pump drones!
Once the hatch is nearly done send 3 drones and your first 2-4 lings to that base and spine up~ you will also have enough minerals to build another hatch at your Nat~ and with those 4 spines you can kill the whole front line of buildings with the help of creep spread by the queen~ all the while droning up and teching in you main and nat~
by the time he kills everything off you have your third base on the way or completed with a higher tech~
thats where i was lacking! I didnt really have enough APM to do all these at once but if I work on my micro and macro i feel this build will work well~

[Muldeh]

If you hadn't let your spines die and just kept creeping forward. Even adding in hydras, or at least using an overlord to spot the high ground, then you would have killed him much faster.

What league are you in?

[oo0zula0oo]

ah well ive done this build a couple of times and usually once it gets to the high ground its very difficult to kill the opponent because their army might be small but they might have sentries or something to stop me from advancing~ I feel like the damage was great so why all in when you can ensure a better win % by macroing~
and I am in diamond league so my control and stuff isn't too good so if a pro zerg used this strat I believe they could execute it much better~

[Muldeh]

Wow, I don't mean to offend, but you let your macro slip sooo badly for a diamond.. though I wont criticise any more as I'm in gold personally.

[oo0zula0oo]

haha yea i know~ its a fairly new build so I was spending time trying to keep moving forward haha~
but yea if I can macro while i do that it'll be a better build
but yea I'm not Nestea~

[Muldeh]

I won my last 2 ZvPs with this strategy, it's fun ^^ but my macro failed just as badly as yours.

[ToRDeathsFang]

I'm too lazy to watch the replay but it sounds very fun and interesting. I shall go on NA and engage -mode and making 12 year old American nerds cry themselves to sleep.

Quick Comments

TcaTX:

Not hard, just playing terran does that I found out =P

[krycek]

hmm interesting will check it out

[xGKingdelete]

this sounds like it has a lot of potential, but:

1: do you have enough anti air if the protoss goes for standard void ray harass behind the FFE?
2: some players don't go for a completely wall-off when they FFE, and they might send a second probe scout from their main for secondary scouting, or send out their first zealot to put on a little bit of pressure. but i don't know the timing of your build, maybe by the time they notice it will be too late to respond

[SirChristoffee]

Cool Idea, but not sure on hatchery placement. Needs to be in a sweet spot where it isn't immediately scouted, and also needs to be far away enough that it's creep spread doesn't give it away, though close enough that spines can root in range.

In your replay, from the Protoss view, he doesn't even notice your creep for about a whole minute before actually looking and responding. He took action when he noticed the crawlers pushing forward, despite actually being able to see one of them grow and complete had he been looking.

With some refinement of placement of hatch, and timing of crawler placement (i.e. as soon as the hatch is finished, start placing crawlers with drones just arrive (perfect world play xP), I see this being more effective with the Protoss having less time to respond.

Any experimentation on the timing of your own expand? Perhaps getting out an extra dozen lings to support the push before putting it down? It really is a trade off between how effectively you halt their economy and how much you hinder your own. Also with maps, some will be more effective than others. For example, I see this being very effective on Taldarim Alter, hiding the hatch down the path to the third (with the rocks in it), though not so much on a map such as Shakuras Plateau where the FFE is on the ramp, or Xel'naga caverns where it isn't too likely for them to FFE/ it'd be hard to hide the proxy.

Hope my thoughts help you refine it a bit. I'll be looking to try this build the next FFE I scout.

[Meatex]

actually if you made a queens out of your proxy hatch you would be in position to not only heal your spines but defend them from void rays which is the usual response.
Though its a big gamble

I see a lot of times a protoss unit will pop (accident on not) on wrong side of solid wall so they will scout you with that and then kill the hatch before it can pop?
But may give it a try

[SirChristoffee]

After the playing around with this with a clan mate, I have some feed back


-Build a handful of queens at the proxy; transfuse is OP lol.

-Do the normal scout timings with overlords to scout the response. Voidrays could give you grief if you
lack enough AA, though if you follow up with muta or hydra, you shouldn't be in trouble for long. I prefer muta at this stage as you can divide the Protoss forces by harassing the main (especially if you haven't quite broken the natural). Fast DTs could be possible, so either build a spore with your spines or get an overseer as soon as you get lair.

-Don't stop advancing. Get lings to soak up hits while you move your wall of crawl forwards, transfuse them for lols (mega lols if you thought I meant transfuse the lings. That would throw any Protoss of their game. Some may even consider that BM). Don't be chicken to move forward if there is 2 or so cannons to your 4 (4 worked for me) crawlers. Provided you have queens and some lings, you should be fine

-As I suggested before, works fine on Tal'darim Altar.

-Finally, don't stop macroing. Essentially this is just an addon to normal builds, that punishes and/or contains FFE Protoss builds. Your main should carry on as usual, drone production and tech, scouting and what ever. The difficulty is giving the proxy enough APM to make it worthwhile, but not neglecting your main as to fall behind regardless. Using hold position on your units at the proxy helps them not throw them selves away if you're managing you main. Also, Injecting the proxy for the production of offensive units while keeping the main and expo injected to do your droning keeps the issue of larvae out.

Please post more replays of you carrying this out please. It is mildly entertaining and helps me reflect on the build

[oo0zula0oo]

Hey guys~ thx forthe feedback!! Yea I realized the placement of the hatchery was very near but if you look at it even if they see the creep they cant do much about it even if they chrono a few more zeals!
Also yes it rly depends on the map! Most 4p maps you can do this because there is no ramp if it's something like shakuras plateau then I wouldn't even bother for it's too hard unless you have perfect overlord placement!
I wouldn try it on xelnaga because of course they wouldn't do ffe!
Even if it doesn't successfully destroy their nexus because they scouted it it has already done so much damage by killing off atleast the forge, gateway and cybercore and also cause the opponent to make additional canons instead of teching or probes!
I guess we have to see the loss for loss amounts and how significant a loss for them and the loss for our hatch and spines will be

[iM yang]

This isn't new and loses to proper scouting and reactions. An early stargate kills all your spines and your proxy hatch because a stargate can reinforce quick enough to kill any building queens.

If you do this against FFE and you don't kill him with a runby after the wall is down, he will have enough economy from 2 base to kill you before you get any meaningful tech out.
If you do this against 1 base Protoss I doubt very much that you can hold off the Void ray/gateway allin that is sure to come.

Not to say this is a bad strategy. Though it only works once in a while against Protoss who don't really know what to look for. It can easily be disguised as a 1 base gas all-in(roach/bane) and can punish players who read the game state wrongly.

[ProAnnn]

Originally Posted by TAyang

This isn't new and loses to proper scouting and reactions. An early stargate kills all your spines and your proxy hatch because a stargate can reinforce quick enough to kill any building queens.

If you do this against FFE and you don't kill him with a runby after the wall is down, he will have enough economy from 2 base to kill you before you get any meaningful tech out.
If you do this against 1 base Protoss I doubt very much that you can hold off the Void ray/gateway allin that is sure to come.

Not to say this is a bad strategy. Though it only works once in a while against Protoss who don't really know what to look for. It can easily be disguised as a 1 base gas all-in(roach/bane) and can punish players who read the game state wrongly.

There you go. This strat is good if your opponent is stupid and doesnt scout at ALL. If he just open stargate you are just SCREWED.

[SirChristoffee]

In that case, spore crawlers OP.

[TADivinity]

Originally Posted by SirChristoffee

In that case, spore crawlers OP.

You will hardly have the economy to afford both spines and spores (and evo) off of one base - especially if you are using spores to protect your proxy And your mineral line.

Its creative i guess, but I just cannot see myself ever getting away with it - a hatchery is really not that hard to scout (Especially when you need it to be in range of the FFE wall) - and the creep spread is even more obvious.

Basically, I feel this is riskier than doing some sort of one-base roach all in (I.e. make a natural hatchery, cancel it, and go a dupe one-base all in)

[oo0zula0oo]

well i have been against a stargate build it seems that by the time the opponent gets one void out you will have at least 2 queens out and when you do see the void ray you can put down one spore and make another queen.
That really wards off any agression from the voidrays. If it indeed destroys the proxy hatch, by that time you should have a much better eco and have done a huge amount of damage slowing down the tech of the protoss that it shouldn't mean the game for you!