[Starcyph3r]

Hey guys, A plat zerg here who for whatever reason cannot win at this matchup. I can beat diamond terran fine when their favoured, but at times I cant even beat gold protoss when I'm favoured. I need a replay analysis asap before I embarrass myself and continue rage quitting in zvp as I did in this replay. Obvious mistakes are blind corrupters which I usually make just because I have so many experiences of being beaten by protoss with a collosus push. And I was also afk for a few secs in the early game so please dont comment on these things. This replay isnt one of my finest moments as I rage quite considerably at the end but its a product of a days worth of zvp. Please help me so I do not end up hopelessly frustrated by this matchup, causing me to abuse unsuspecting protoss players

http://sc2rep.com/replays/%28P%29San...20110730/11872

[Hybrid]

i started to DL the replay but for some reason it isn't working, i will have a look tmw if i can dl it, i am super buggered right now. any way don't rage quit to much, its a game just rage at the person. gl with any games you play,

[ProAnnn]

Most zerg struggle against protoss because of 2 things.
1. Poor Scouting
Overlord saccing is very important. Especially if your opponent forge FE as he most likely wouldnt able to stop your overlord from scouting his techpaths. Against 3 gate sentry expand u also have to try to overlord sac but you can sac 1 at 7 min another one at 11 min when u have overlord speed
2. Poor Reaction
Scout stargate? Start making queens and spores. Scout 6 gateways? Start make lings/roaches /spines. Scout 6 gateways AND a twilight council? Throw infestation pit and tons of spines and a spore of course. Scout robo? Throw a spire! Zerg IMBA

Quick Comments

	Maynarde:	Excellent response, OP should take not of this
	TADivinity:	Exactly the problems I fixed myself, now ZvP is a strength
	lolwut:	great answer!

[Maynarde]

Originally Posted by ProAnnn

Most zerg struggle against protoss because of 2 things.
1. Poor Scouting
Overlord saccing is very important. Especially if your opponent forge FE as he most likely wouldnt able to stop your overlord from scouting his techpaths. Against 3 gate sentry expand u also have to try to overlord sac but you can sac 1 at 7 min another one at 11 min when u have overlord speed
2. Poor Reaction
Scout stargate? Start making queens and spores. Scout 6 gateways? Start make lings/roaches /spines. Scout 6 gateways AND a twilight council? Throw infestation pit and tons of spines and a spore of course. Scout robo? Throw a spire! Zerg IMBA

Completely agree with you, as usual.

The major difference between the zergs that can handle protoss and the zergs that can't are either of those things or a mixture of the two. Scouting and reacting right is so important it's insane to ignore.

[Starcyph3r]

[QUOTE=ProAnnn;29226]Most zerg struggle against protoss because of 2 things.
1. Poor Scouting
Overlord saccing is very important. Especially if your opponent forge FE as he most likely wouldnt able to stop your overlord from scouting his techpaths. Against 3 gate sentry expand u also have to try to overlord sac but you can sac 1 at 7 min another one at 11 min when u have overlord speed
2. Poor Reaction
Scout stargate? Start making queens and spores. Scout 6 gateways? Start make lings/roaches /spines. Scout 6 gateways AND a twilight council? Throw infestation pit and tons of spines and a spore of course. Scout robo? Throw a spire! Zerg IMBA[/Q

I dont like the stylistic choice of fast overlords unless I'm swimming in gas. Slow overlords take forever to get to toss on large maps. Most of the time protoss just shoots it down when they attempt to get me to make units by having their army take the towers. Worst of all is that their not invisible :P

[Geekpeek]

Originally Posted by Starcyph3r

I dont like the stylistic choice of fast overlords unless I'm swimming in gas. Slow overlords take forever to get to toss on large maps. Most of the time protoss just shoots it down when they attempt to get me to make units by having their army take the towers. Worst of all is that their not invisible :P

I would suggest you play around with overlord speed a bit more. It's definately worth the resources and the info you gain is something you desparately need. I would even sac an overlord or two on occasion. Point is, it does seem like a scouting issue and it won't hurt to try it out for a few more games.

[matthras]

Originally Posted by Starcyph3r

I dont like the stylistic choice of fast overlords unless I'm swimming in gas. Slow overlords take forever to get to toss on large maps. Most of the time protoss just shoots it down when they attempt to get me to make units by having their army take the towers. Worst of all is that their not invisible :P

You WERE swimming in gas in that game in general. Also, once you've scouted your opponent's position it's normally standard practice to situate your first overlord somewhere where you can easily run it into your opponent's base.

You lost because you had no idea to expect, and blindly went towards the standard Roach/Hydra/Corrupter composition even though your opponent made no air units whatsoever.

When you're scouting, it's not so much just the tech and what buildings he has up, but also his army composition.

Other points:

- Minimap awareness. There was a long minute where you were simply checking your upgrades yet the Toss army was sitting in the middle of the map doing nothing - having checked the composition earlier would've allowed you to appropriately react, or suicide your army early in order to remax.
- Eco management. As mentioned already, you were banking a fair amount of gas. I wouldn't have minded if your gameplan involved making a bunch of Ultras/Broods/Infestors all at once, but none of such was apparent. A solid gameplan also includes a solid idea of what kind of economy you'll need to support the production.
- Engagement. Zergs' power in ZvP/ZvT is their ability to replenish their army faster than a Protoss can. The initial engagement is important because you need to buy yourself time in order to replenish/remax your army. That said, again you could've drawn the Protoss army closer to his base (thereby buying yourself time), so that you'd have time to remax once your initial army is destroyed.

[PiG]

If ur so angry learn a variety of all ins like drone drill and roach long all-in and you can make yourself feel better with ez wins :P. Knowing all ins is vital for punishing greedy players. However if you'd rather improve in the long run you probly need to fix ur macro mechanics. On mobile now so will post more later on this but I stream alot of coaching covering how to improve zerg macro: www.justintv/altpig even the bronze lessons I give rules that can apply across all skill levels.

[Starcyph3r]

Hmm I feel just as cheap as the protoss if I all in :S

[ProAnnn]

I dont play zerg but for whatever reason all my zerg opponents WILL have overlord flying into my base at 7-8 min mark and scouting EVERYTHING inside. Overlord speed enables even easier scouting.

[ToRDeathsFang]

Your quote failed. Just sayin'

Quick Comments

Aean(::

dont copy me :(

[Muldeh]

Okay I have a question... how do zergs beat mass archon/zealot? I mean like 15+ archons.. my last game sure i got infestors but i only had the gas for 4, fungaled the zealots and neural parasite 3 of the archons, had heeeeaps of spines, but it wasn't enough. I know i'm just silver and theres a lot more wrong with my play etc etc.. whatever.. I know what I need to improve on there and I'll work on it.. but when it comes to scouting archons all i really know if to build infestors, if theres any other way to deal with it.. please. :S

[matthras]

If you've let your opponent get 15+ Archons, then you would've had the opportunity to get just as many Infestors OR have easily outmacro'ed him. I get the impression you weren't too sure what your mid-game plan and unit composition was. Apart from that, I can't comment on anything else without a replay.

[Muldeh]

I guess that's true, I shouldn't wing it so much..

Most of my gas was used for a lot of mutas, though my harrass only cleared up his third.

15 archons > 30 mutas.

[Starcyph3r]

Originally Posted by Muldeh

I guess that's true, I shouldn't wing it so much..

Most of my gas was used for a lot of mutas, though my harrass only cleared up his third.

15 archons > 30 mutas.

And 15>300/200 worth of roaches

[Starcyph3r]

Also what is the universally agreed upon hard counter to zealot archon? You criticise me for using roach/hydra but I would have thought it would one of zergs strongest forms of ground army while waiting for broodlords. Also the reasoning for staying back in my base is A) Because I needed to engage on creep and B) I was waiting on the 3/2 upgrades which would give me the edge against his army.

[Xeen]

Originally Posted by Starcyph3r

Also what is the universally agreed upon hard counter to zealot archon?

Stop using this term. Stop thinking this term. Hard counter implies you're playing rock paper scissors and not Starcraft, and there's a way to hilariously roll over the composition. Standard compositions do not have 'hard counters', that is why they are standard.

The best 'counter' to archons is that they are very singular units, and expensive at that. Having a lot of stuff usually nullifies this (and any other build that relies on key, costly units) - beyond not doing anything silly (ling-heavy builds probably aren't going to cut it), you'd be fine with any sort of midgame so long as you focused on limiting the Protoss's ability to take bases and secure gas. I'd just go mass roach while securing gasses for infestor/brood and harass throughout the midgame because zealots are hilarious and archons aren't a threat if they get split apart.

Originally Posted by Muldeh

Okay I have a question... how do zergs beat mass archon/zealot? I mean like 15+ archons.. my last game sure i got infestors but i only had the gas for 4, fungaled the zealots and neural parasite 3 of the archons, had heeeeaps of spines, but it wasn't enough. I know i'm just silver and theres a lot more wrong with my play etc etc.. whatever.. I know what I need to improve on there and I'll work on it.. but when it comes to scouting archons all i really know if to build infestors, if theres any other way to deal with it.. please. :S

You lost a game where he had 15+ archons yet you 'only had gas for 4' infestors. I'm going to let you look at those numbers and think about the implications of that sentence. That is why you lost. You should not be thinking about tactics or what to build, you should be fixing your play so you have more stuff than your opponent.

[ProAnnn]

Roach hydra composition is actually a darn good counter to zealot archon.

[Daboo]

Lets see..
Blind countering colossi tech when he was going for zealot archon.
No vision of the protoss base after your scouting drone died to the cannon.
This was pretty much a NR15 game, where apart form the little attempted runby you tried when he was taking a third.
Location where you engaged was just too close to your base, so he could walk in to your base when he was done with your army.
After all this bming toss player and saying he has no skill.

His army was bigger,and protoss armies are the hardiest in the game once upgraded. Thats just the nature of the game,the downside is they're more expensive, and hence tougher to remax. The advantage that zerg has is to throw units at will and keep making more. Infestors might have helped, and I hear banelings are quite good against zealots.....but I think more than anything this was failure to scout protoss strategy, and being too passive. Toss could've maxed out on anything and won in this game.

[Next_rim]

Xeen,

He clearly stated that he built loads of mutas just to see his opp build archons that (!) counter mutas. He lost his army, tried to rebuild, but had no macro to support tech switch. So he is asking about whether his initial tactics was correct.

OP,

Starcraft is very tactical. You go into the game with a particular build. Every build has strength and weaknesses. If you are playing some1 who scouted you, figured out your weakness, and is making a counter, you can:
1) switch (adjust, or diminish your strength, but strengthen your weak sides),
2) proceed with build (take advantage of timing and first-mover advantage, aka do it before he can do anything to stop you).
3) You can also take an econ risk, and do suicide attack to do some damage, but only do it when you have strong macro to back it up (aka make him constantly trade, relying on your cost efficiency or income efficiency).

You didn't use either of your options, and lost as a result.

As you probably already figured out, your opponent simply built a counter to your opening. It doesn't mean your opening was wrong, mutas are sometimes viable. It means you scouted wrong (or didn't scout at all), and for w/e bad reason decided to proceed with mutas. Which is also fine, but if you chose to proceed with your build without adjustment, you have to do stupid amounts of damage, or secure enough macro behind it to switch in time. You made every tactical error possible.

You played in the following state of mind "o well, i'll build some mutaz and see what I can do with them". This is a wrong approach, you have to better make decision on what to build based on scouting information. YOur game was a typical low-level double blind, where you play your strat with no regard to what your opp is doing. In this case, buildorder losses are typical.

Quick Comments

Insidious:

Good answer lack of scouting or bad response to scouting