[xceL]

In the past month or so I don't think I've won a single TvP that went past the 18 minute mark.
I'm a high masters level player.

I feel like I get obliterated by charge lots completely, especially when they hit 3-3 upgrades.
I recall playing a game the other day with 3-2 MMM against 1-1 gateway army, his stalkers infront taking sick damage before realizing he was under attack, blinking them back and the charge zealots come in and tear up everything.

I find drops just don't work late game, if I drop 2 medivacs of units anywhere on the map I just get A-moved and stomped. Drops rarely succeed for me towards late game where we are both maxed as I either get countered or he has enough supply to warp in units to completely negate my drop.

is late game blue flame hellion viable? I feel the only thing thats really killing me is the charge lots at the end.
I need some suggestions on what to do late game against protoss, besides MMMG because it's not working for me.

[Next_rim]

Late game tvp is a macro fest, whoever has more production and bases wins. So focus on doing econ damage, and avoid big fights. Drops work anyday. If he has 5-6 stalkers, do 3 medivac drops ^^

[xceL]

I've tried dropping 2+ medivacs of units, but thats 20 supply of units that arent fighting when he A-moves my natural or 3rd.

[Next_rim]

post some replays. If you lose with equal supply, means your positioning isn't good. Fight in chokes.

[ROOT`iaguz]

I've been having a rather similar problem with my TvP. So I watched a bit of TvP and I noticed a really interesting thing. Basically 99% of people who want to win at TvP get a second Command Centre going, and then decide to win the game with their 2 bases. At some point you'll need a 3rd and other boring things like upgrades and ghosts, but focus more on executing a really strong 2 base play involving drops and multitasking your units to stretch the protoss's ability to deal with your bullshit.

Consider this. Did you watch QXC execute a collective curbstomp of Incredible Miracle the other day? Recall his match vs BBi the protoss. Note how after BBi fucked up and lost 3 sentries, that QXC powered ahead massively. And notice that despite being up an awful lot on bases and production, BBi took a really long time to finish off and was able to counter attack QXC at one point. This is because a Protoss in the lategame simply has a much better army then you do so it's on you to whip out the multitask and control to stop that from happening.

Alternatively you can get the best EMP's of your life every tvp. Blanketing the entire Protoss army in EMP's is an effective way to increase your odds of winning a huge engagement from 1% to >1%. I mean, you'll still have to deal with the archons they make after his 'now useless' templar start merging and the large walking laser beams still have large laser beams and no amount of emp's will make the bio ball trade efficiently against Zealots + it's own stim abuse but it's better then nothing.

Terran cannot let their Zerg or Protoss opponent reach lategame on their own terms or they're fucked. They don't have the army compositions to match them. Especially not protoss. So make something nice happen off of 2 base and transition to 3 base if you cannot outright win the game off of your 2 base play. Simple!

[xceL]

Great, so it's not just me thinking that Terran sucks hard at late game.

Lately I've been trying to do hard out macro terran with 3-3 ghosts and vikings but none of the games have even been remotely close, at least those that dont involve me gaining some relatively decent advantage in the early/mid game.

[Nemo]

If iaguz says that's hard to win v and even v he's certainly right ... But this is somewhat sad and I think there are still pro players that try it with some success. I would not like to see all s do only 2 bases All-ins every time.

I think the key as is to be really active all along the game to try accumulate advantages, force skirmish battles, try not let the armies get maxed and harass expands permanently.

As for chargelots, I made some unit test tonight if you want to check : http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=380

My conclusion is that BF hellions are good alone against Charglots, but as soon as there a mix MMM+Hellions agaisnt chargelots and Stalkers, pure MMM with heavy marine count seems better at same cost.

Quick Comments

NvPinder:

ffs dude just say terran and protoss makes it much easier to read

[ROOT`iaguz]

It's not that you can't late game TvP. My point is that you cannot play a passive TvP lategame. You have to do some sort of 2 base timing and get some damage done and some pressure on the protoss because once he has 6+ colossus and templar mixed in you cannot beat it unless you get a really lucky engagement.

The alternatives to this strategy is to execute a 1 base timing with something like banshees or blue flames into either an all in or an expansion, or to get a really fast 3rd and power units like crazy. This is how you play TvP successfully.

TvZ has room for passive play but it has to be performed in response to how the Zerg is playing. A lot of 2 base timings rely on your opponent playing greedy and if there is no greed to exploit then you have to take a 3rd and start digging in and preparing a big push. Like I said, you can't let those other dirty races play the lategame they want to.

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

[xceL]

In essence, your initial aggression must be successful, be it drops or early pressure or denying a 3rd, else chances of winning are considerably reduced?

I've never actually thought about playing against protoss like I do against Zerg, with constant pressure.

[Nemo]

Originally Posted by iaguz

It's not that you can't late game TvP. My point is that you cannot play a passive TvP lategame. You have to do some sort of 2 base timing and get some damage done and some pressure on the protoss because once he has 6+ colossus and templar mixed in you cannot beat it unless you get a really lucky engagement.

Ah, OK, I understand. Thanks for the precision.

[NvPinder]

Yeah pretty much think of us as the zerg of the matchup, where if you let us sit back and do our own thing you're going to get shat on because we're greedy by nature as the defenders in the matchup and will generally try to get away with as quick as possibly tech/expansions/upgrades.

But yeah, you're going to want to be ahead economically or in upgrades or something to fight protoss late game. Also ghosts. Lots of ghosts. like, stupid amounts of ghosts. like. mass ghosts. 100% ghost army with maybe some vikings if hes still going collosi... But still mostly ghosts. not even kidding. mother. *******. ghosts.

[cruxBsK]

I've also been having issues with P late game but I do find Cloak Ghosts with energy upgrade helps a lot you also need to keep kitting back if charge lots are on you once you whittle them down you can then get into their stalkers and collo. But it's no easy feat especially if they have the ups advantage. I almost feel like you need check to see if they are expanding right at the 5:30 mark if not get ready for all in if you can hold their all in then you win, I feel like if you don't do damage to them early you are basically fucked.

[xceL]

Nah lost cause. No matter how much I try I just can win, they turtle and get 3 colossi and I just get walked on. Feels like I can never get enough vikings out, and if I do, the gateway army roflstomps mine completely.
Looks like I'm gonna have to some hard out replay watching.
I'm so lost in this matchup.

Thanks for replies though (:

[Digby]

Ghosts and Ravens.

[ROOT`iaguz]

Why would you build ravens late game? Ignoring the part where they get murdered by feedback, why would you need to dedicate thousands of gas towards starports, tech labs, upgrades and ravens? This is why you build ghosts, medivacs and upgrades.

[Digby]

I think Ravens would play a major part in the late game, drop some PDDs and u nullify stalkers for a while, if feedback is used, than that means less storms, maybe use the Raven bomb things, I personally believe the Raven is an underutilised unit with much potential.

[Next_rim]

Ravens are good either in stupid numbers (over 20), or early game, when numbers of stalkers are low, and it takes a while to kill the pdd.

[ROOT`iaguz]

20 ravens. This is clearly a realistic figure of ravens, because when I play TvP I have 5k gas lying around for the ports, tech labs, upgrades and TWENTY RAVENS.

Digby, you're theorycrafting. Stop that. If ravens had potential in TvP Lategame we'd of figured it out. But they do not. Autoturrets don't do enough damage to be lolspammed in a fight, PDD's do not stop Colossus and storms and chargelots and archons which are the danger units at that stage and Seeker missile is just a bad ability that costs too much for too little and the raven itself gets beat by 50 energy from a Templar.

For a unit to be useful lategame it has to be a unit which does things. Templar do things, they destroy huge bio formations, make all those units I have that use energy hilariously redundant and even after I EMP them they spend a short 12 seconds turning to a unit which takes 35 marauder shots to bring down. And cannot be slowed. Colossus do things like having large ******* laser beams. Ravens do not do shit.

[xceL]

So I've gotten used to having 5+ ghosts before each engagement. My winrate is slightly increasing, but I'm still not sure what to do against mass charge lots >.<, especially when they've gone Zealot colossus with a couple of templar. Marines melt insanely fast to the colossus and marauders just dont do the damage, forcing me to kite half way down the map.
Do I just go pure marauder + ghost in that case?

[Next_rim]

Vikings? He can't hit vikings if he has only zealots and HT ^^