[ke_ivan]

Quite recently I played 5 TvPs (in a row) after not playing for awhile (like 2 months). I was really rusty, but I always use the same strategy (1 rax FE). In all the TvPs, I scouted a one-base all in with gateway units. I'm in bronze playing against silver and gold players.

Game 1: Some form of delayed 4 warpgate. Rush commenced 8.00. Didn't see his probe, and his proxy pylon caught me off guard as I was moving out my units and expanding.
Game 2: Same thing happened. Except this time I scouted him, but thought he wouldn't march across cross-positions on typhon peaks to kill me. He did. I put two bunkers and pulled scvs. I thought I could hold. Nope.
Game 3: Fast DTs. No turrets. nuf said.
Game 4: Shakuras Plateau. Went Marauder/Ghost. Engaged badly in open area and emp only hit zealots. 12 marauders (w/ stim and concussive shells) were eaten by 9 stalkers and 3 zealots (bad kiting).
Game 5: I was so mad so I went for a one-base all-in banshees, hellion, marine, marauder. Banshee harrassed and pulled the army back and I attacked the front. expanded behind that. He lost all his probes. Zzzzz.

My point is the only game I won was when I went for a one-base all-in. My question is: Is there a way to take a risk like 1 rax FE and defend a one-base all-in? Or do we have to play safe and take the risk of having the opponent go for an econ advantage?

[iMSystem]

try 2 rax FE and take gas so you can get add-ons, its abit delayed expansion, but usually you still end up either ahead of even with a FE protoss, and if he 1 bases you, its easier for you to defend.

Quick Comments

|Erasmus|:

Safer way to expand which is still fast. :)

[|Erasmus|]

You don't really need to scout exactly what they're doing at any given time, generally. If you build something like a reaper and just focus on seeing whether they expand by 6 or 7 minutes in, and if not maybe scan their main to see if you can get a little more info as to what kind of all-in you should be able to adjust appropriately.

Iif you expect an all-in, don't be out on the map. Build bunkers and turtle. spot around the edges of your base for proxy pylons where they can warp onto the high ground and avoid engaging said fortified bunkers...

And always build an early e-bay in TvP (well, all matchups really) as you will want the upgrades, and it never hurts to throw down a single turret at your front in case of dts( and also stop observers getting close and having free complete info about your army comp all game long).

Edit: also what System said. It's what I do in almost every TvP.

[[TA]LoSt]

Depends on maps too. Xel Naga you should always be going 2 rax pressure, if he goes 1 gate FE he dies, if he goes 4gate you can back away, bunker your ramp, 2-3 bunkers if you're really scared, have your CC in your main producing double the amount of scvs than he has probes and hold until your economy is so much further ahead that you crush him with pure bio.

You'll have your second CC up to catch up on economy so you can use a scan around 6 minutes if you can't get a scv in his bse instead of MULEing to see what buildings he has. At BSG level all his production and tech buildings will be close together, probably around 1 pylon, so scan the main pylon and react accordingly.

Early eBay for ups is good, both early game and in the long run (as you'll always have the upgrade advantage regardless), try refine your build to add in an eBay and early upgrade timings.

If you really want to 1 rax FE, scan and see what he's doing. You can most likelyhold a 3gate pressure by throwing down 3 bunkers and reacting quickly with scvs to repair bunkers at your nat and landing your CC there. If he's 4 gate, safest thing to do is stay in your base; if his 4gate fails to do damage you're ahead.

GL

[ke_ivan]

Thanks guys. I just wish I could 1 rax FE every game lol. Time refine another build.

[Aean(:]

i 1rax fe .. nothing wrong with it. time your gases so that your next 2 rax can get tech labs at the same time, and you should get units out ezpzmode. its like how toss 1gate fe into 3gate. i do 1rax fe into 3rax.

Quick Comments

TAavanar:

dont 1rax fe on xelnaga...

[ke_ivan]

Originally Posted by Aean(:

i 1rax fe .. nothing wrong with it. time your gases so that your next 2 rax can get tech labs at the same time, and you should get units out ezpzmode. its like how toss 1gate fe into 3gate. i do 1rax fe into 3rax.

Yup i've done that, so that i can go pressure with stim . And that usually works but I've been having problems with that of late. I usually have 14 - 16 Marines if I'm going into 3 rax (w/o tech lab) or 8 - 10 Marines and 2 - 3 Marauders when 4 gate hits, and depending on how good his/her timing is, no stim (or stim just in time). if stim is up, i'm usually ok, but if my timing is just a little bit off, i will have to micro like a mad man - i won't have enough money for bunkers at this point of time .

TBH, I've held off bad 4gate timings in the past. But i think people are starting to execute them more correctly, so I'm having problems holding them off. If I do hold them off, I build a ghost academy and go with a whole bunch of marauders and kill them. If they robo tech, I go vikings (simple plans lol).

I generally execute on time and don't miss SCVs/unit production. More often than not, the protoss won't be deterred from walking up my ramp (and hence I'm surprised lol - i always expect them to go back down for some reason). Usually after this, my macro will slip, especially if I'm attacking. I usually take a third at 11:00 and fourth at 16:00 if I'm still alive.

My rough build goes something like this TvP:

0 0:00 - 0:17 6 / 11 SCV 0 0
1 0:17 - 0:34 7 / 11 SCV 21 0
2 0:34 - 0:51 8 / 11 SCV 54 0
3 0:51 - 1:08 9 / 11 SCV 99 0
4 0:51 - 1:21 10 / 11 Supply Depot 0 0
5 1:08 - 1:25 10 / 11 SCV 44 0
6 1:21 - 1:21 11 / 19 Send scout 127 0
7 1:25 - 1:42 11 / 19 SCV 101 0
8 1:32 - 2:32 12 / 19 Barracks 0 0
9 1:42 - 1:59 12 / 19 SCV 13 0
10 1:59 - 2:16 13 / 19 SCV 82 0
11 2:16 - 2:33 14 / 19 SCV 163 0
12 2:33 - 3:08 15 / 19 Orbital Command 157 0
13 2:33 - 2:58 15 / 19 Marine 107 0
14 2:33 - 3:03 16 / 19 Supply Depot 7 0
15 3:15 - 4:55 16 / 27 Command Center 0 0 54
16 3:20 - 3:37 16 / 27 SCV 0 0 57
17 3:20 - 4:50 17 / 27 Calldown: MULE 0 0 7
18 3:33 - 4:33 17 / 27 Barracks 0 0 14
19 3:46 - 4:46 17 / 27 Barracks 0 0 21
20 3:50 - 4:15 17 / 27 Marine 0 0 24
21 3:57 - 4:27 18 / 27 Refinery 0 0 28
22 4:04 - 4:34 18 / 27 Refinery 0 0 32
23 4:09 - 4:26 18 / 27 SCV 0 0 34
24 4:15 - 4:40 19 / 27 Marine 12 0 38
25 4:26 - 4:43 20 / 27 SCV 69 0 44
26 4:27 - 4:29 21 / 27 Transfer 3 workers to gas 78 0 44
27 4:33 - 4:58 21 / 27 Marine 85 8 48
28 4:34 - 4:36 22 / 27 Transfer 3 workers to gas 94 10 48
29 4:40 - 5:05 22 / 27 Marine 97 30 52
30 4:55 - 5:30 23 / 38 Orbital Command 75 86 60
31 4:55 - 5:20 23 / 38 Tech Lab on Barracks 25 61 60
32 4:58 - 5:23 23 / 38 Marine 0 73 62
33 5:04 - 5:21 24 / 38 SCV 0 98 66
34 5:11 - 5:36 25 / 38 Marine 0 123 69
35 5:30 - 6:30 26 / 38 Factory 0 94 80
36 5:36 - 6:01 26 / 38 Tech Lab on Barracks 0 94 84, 54
37 5:43 - 6:08 26 / 38 Tech Lab on Barracks 0 94 87, 57
38 5:49 - 6:06 26 / 38 SCV 0 119 91, 61
39 5:49 - 7:19 27 / 38 Calldown: MULE 0 119 41, 61
40 5:59 - 6:29 27 / 38 Supply Depot 0 155 46, 66
41 6:04 - 7:04 27 / 38 Concussive Shells 0 124 49, 69
42 6:09 - 6:26 27 / 38 SCV 0 142 52, 72
43 6:13 - 6:30 28 / 38 SCV 0 160 54, 74
44 6:23 - 6:53 29 / 38 Marauder 0 171 60, 80
45 6:27 - 6:52 31 / 38 Marine 0 188 62, 82
46 6:31 - 7:21 32 / 46 Reactor on Factory 0 153 65, 85
47 6:35 - 6:52 32 / 46 SCV 0 167 67, 87
48 6:39 - 7:04 33 / 46 Marine 0 181 69, 89
49 6:43 - 7:00 34 / 46 SCV 0 195 71, 91
50 6:50 - 9:40 35 / 46 Stimpack 0 123 75, 95
51 6:54 - 7:11 35 / 46 SCV 0 137 77, 97
52 7:04 - 7:54 36 / 46 Starport 0 76 83, 100
53 7:08 - 7:33 36 / 46 Marine 0 89 85, 100
54 7:11 - 7:28 37 / 46 SCV 0 102 87, 100
55 7:18 - 7:48 38 / 46 Supply Depot 0 128 91, 100
56 7:27 - 7:57 38 / 46 Marauder 0 136 96, 100
57 7:35 - 8:05 40 / 46 Marauder 0 143 100, 100
58 7:39 - 7:56 42 / 46 SCV 0 159 100, 100
59 7:54 - 8:04 43 / 54 Swap Reactor on Factory to Starport 181 215 100, 100
60 8:04 - 8:46 43 / 54 Viking 170 178 100, 100

I also do this if I go Siege Tank (rarely). This is more my TvZ build.

0 0:00 0:17 6 / 11 SCV 0 0
1 0:17 0:34 7 / 11 SCV 21 0
2 0:34 0:51 8 / 11 SCV 54 0
3 0:51 1:08 9 / 11 SCV 99 0
4 0:51 1:21 10 / 11 Supply Depot 0 0
5 1:08 1:25 10 / 11 SCV 44 0
6 1:25 1:42 11 / 19 SCV 104 0
7 1:30 2:30 12 / 19 Barracks 0 0
8 1:42 1:59 12 / 19 SCV 27 0
9 1:59 2:16 13 / 19 SCV 108 0
10 2:16 2:33 14 / 19 SCV 201 0
11 2:30 2:55 15 / 19 Marine 287 0
12 2:33 3:08 16 / 19 Orbital Command 157 0
13 2:55 3:20 16 / 19 Marine 348 0
14 3:00 4:40 17 / 19 Command Center 0 0
15 3:08 4:38 17 / 19 Calldown: MULE 69 0 0
16 3:08 3:25 17 / 19 SCV 19 0 0
17 3:20 3:45 18 / 19 Marine 134 0 7
18 3:22 4:22 19 / 19 Barracks 0 0 8
19 3:34 4:34 19 / 19 Barracks 0 0 15
20 3:40 4:10 19 / 19 Refinery 0 0 18
21 3:47 4:17 19 / 19 Refinery 0 0 22
22 4:10 4:10 19 / 19 Transfer 3 workers to gas 248 0 35
23 4:17 4:17 19 / 19 Transfer 3 workers to gas 309 13 39
24 4:34 4:59 19 / 19 Tech Lab on Barracks 401 52 48
25 4:36 6:06 19 / 19 Calldown: MULE 426 62 0
26 4:40 5:15 19 / 30 Orbital Command 316 77 2
27 4:40 5:05 19 / 30 Marine 266 77 2
28 4:40 4:57 20 / 30 SCV 216 77 2
29 4:40 5:05 21 / 30 Marine 166 77 2
30 4:57 5:14 22 / 30 SCV 284 141 12
31 4:59 7:49 23 / 30 Stimpack 197 46 13
32 4:59 5:24 23 / 30 Marine 147 46 13
33 4:59 5:29 24 / 30 Supply Depot 47 46 13
34 5:13 6:13 24 / 30 Factory 38 0 21
35 5:14 5:39 24 / 30 Marine 0 5 21
36 5:15 6:45 25 / 30 Calldown: MULE 11 9 22, 0
37 5:18 5:43 25 / 30 Marine 0 21 24, 2
38 5:22 5:39 26 / 30 SCV 0 36 26, 4
39 5:26 5:51 27 / 30 Marine 0 51 28, 6
40 5:30 5:47 28 / 38 SCV 0 65 30, 8
41 5:39 6:04 29 / 38 Marine 74 100 35, 13
42 5:41 6:11 30 / 38 Supply Depot 0 107 36, 14
43 5:45 6:10 30 / 38 Marine 0 121 38, 17
44 5:48 6:05 31 / 38 SCV 0 135 41, 19
45 5:52 6:17 32 / 38 Marine 0 148 43, 21
46 5:56 6:13 33 / 38 SCV 0 161 45, 23
47 6:04 6:29 34 / 38 Marine 75 194 49, 27
48 6:05 7:35 35 / 38 Calldown: MULE 89 198 0, 28
49 6:05 6:22 35 / 38 SCV 42 199 0, 28
50 6:10 6:35 36 / 38 Marine 60 216 3, 31
51 6:13 6:30 37 / 46 SCV 51 226 4, 32
52 6:15 6:45 38 / 46 Supply Depot 0 237 6, 34
53 6:18 6:43 38 / 46 Tech Lab on Factory 0 224 7, 35
54 6:22 6:47 38 / 46 Marine 0 236 9, 37
55 6:25 6:42 39 / 46 SCV 0 247 11, 39
56 6:29 6:54 40 / 46 Marine 31 265 14, 42
57 6:30 6:47 41 / 46 SCV 0 269 14, 42
58 6:43 7:28 42 / 46 Siege Tank 83 194 21, 50
59 6:44 8:14 45 / 46 Calldown: MULE 99 197 22, 0
60 6:44 8:04 45 / 46 Siege Tech 0 97 22, 0

[|Erasmus|]

Question: how does a 1 rax FE with no gas for marauders survive if the P just does a probe/zealot/stalker poke up your ramp... won't that do quite a bit of damage? (I fail at timings though, would there be 2 or 3 marines when that normally gets to your base?)

Whether I do one or two rax expand, I like to go gas and get a marine, reaper, concussive shells and marauders.

[Aean(:]

Originally Posted by |Erasmus|

Question: how does a 1 rax FE with no gas for marauders survive if the P just does a probe/zealot/stalker poke up your ramp... won't that do quite a bit of damage? (I fail at timings though, would there be 2 or 3 marines when that normally gets to your base?)

Whether I do one or two rax expand, I like to go gas and get a marine, reaper, concussive shells and marauders.

I tested that with someone, I have like 5marines when they poke with 1zealot/stalker (no probe) though. and with micro, thats sufficient.
@avanar, obviously you wouldnt 1rax fe on small-medium maps. sigh use knowledge
@ke_ivan what did you use to get all those timing-logs man o-o
and with the 1rax fe into 3rax (double tech lab). you can get a reaper first instead of marauder for scouting uses (4gate etc). if your not safe, stay in your base and scv up before expanding.

[ke_ivan]

Yes it does and that's my problem really. I can wait a bit and get two bunkers up but it'd be too late .
I almost always know when all-ins occur, and yet sometimes i think "oh he's not going to march all the way here just to 4gate me" lol If i don't though, I usually turtle in base, but I still die .

I think the suggestion to just be safe and go for 2 rax expand is still correct.

[ke_ivan]

I tested my build last night and it's definitely not safe against four gate. I forgot gas for 10 seconds and drove the first wave away, but then proceeded to get rofl stomped. I watched my own replays to see when I could get stuff up and used www.sc2calc.org to refine.

Even with the delayed 4gate, it hits around 7.50. I will barely have stim out and by 8.10, he would have had 8 units. If he waits till 8.30, he will have like 9 stalkers and 3 zealots. That's enough to kill 8 marines and 3 marauders unless i pull scvs. I don't think I can FE against toss animore . I think I will start going blue flame hellions into hellion/siege tank/thor/viking or quick banshees into tank/raven/marine/banshee. I can't take losing to toss anymore!

The last game I played was on slag pits. He set up a proxy pylon at the gold and started the rush at 8.30. I pushed back the first wave but his second wave came at 8.45, faster than I expected. I panicked and proceeded to lose all my scvs. I got so mad I stayed in the game. lol, i gotta apologise to that guy for being so bm.

Oh and just a little timing I discovered (but you guys already know this): If you go 1 rax FE into three rax and you get double gas right after your third rax, when your third rax finishes you can immediately get a tech lab, and when the tech lab is done you have just enough gas (102 gas I believe) to start stim.

[ke_ivan]

In the interest of all one-basing terrans here's my not so original marine/raven/banshee/tank starting line up. It will be an elaborate pressure into light contain + expanding behind the push. After first banshee does damage and pulls units back into base, move to the front and pressure. :P

Not that refined but let me know what you think!


# Started Completed Supply Object Minerals Gas Energy
0 0:03 0:20 6 / 11 SCV 4 0
1 0:20 0:37 7 / 11 SCV 25 0
2 0:37 0:54 8 / 11 SCV 58 0
3 0:54 1:11 9 / 11 SCV 103 0
4 0:54 1:24 10 / 11 Supply Depot 3 0
5 1:11 1:28 10 / 11 SCV 48 0
6 1:24 1:24 11 / 19 Send scout 130 0
7 1:28 1:45 11 / 19 SCV 105 0
8 1:34 2:34 12 / 19 Barracks 0 0
9 1:45 2:02 12 / 19 SCV 17 0
10 1:53 2:23 13 / 19 Refinery 0 0
11 2:02 2:19 13 / 19 SCV 5 0
12 2:19 2:36 14 / 19 SCV 74 0
13 2:23 2:25 15 / 19 Transfer 3 workers to gas 107 0
14 2:36 3:11 15 / 19 Orbital Command 38 20
15 2:37 3:02 15 / 19 Marine 0 23
16 2:50 3:20 16 / 19 Supply Depot 0 48
17 3:01 3:31 16 / 19 Refinery 0 68
18 3:11 4:41 16 / 19 Calldown: MULE 61 86 0
19 3:20 4:20 16 / 27 Factory 0 4 5
20 3:26 3:51 16 / 27 Marine 0 14 8
21 3:31 3:33 17 / 27 Transfer 3 workers to gas 47 24 11
22 3:31 3:48 17 / 27 SCV 0 24 12
23 3:48 4:05 18 / 27 SCV 83 85 21
24 3:51 4:16 19 / 27 Marine 54 95 23
25 4:05 4:22 20 / 27 SCV 127 150 31
26 4:20 5:10 21 / 27 Starport 107 107 39
27 4:20 4:45 21 / 27 Tech Lab on Factory 57 82 39
28 4:20 4:45 21 / 27 Marine 7 82 39
29 4:25 4:42 22 / 27 SCV 0 99 42
30 4:39 6:09 23 / 27 Calldown: MULE 146 155 0
31 4:42 4:59 23 / 27 SCV 122 164 1
32 4:42 5:12 24 / 27 Supply Depot 22 164 1
33 4:45 5:10 24 / 27 Marine 7 177 3
34 4:59 5:16 25 / 27 SCV 90 228 11
35 5:10 5:20 26 / 27 Swap Tech Lab on Factory to Starport 212 272 17
36 5:10 5:35 26 / 27 Marine 162 272 17
37 5:16 5:33 27 / 35 SCV 173 293 20
38 5:16 5:46 28 / 35 Supply Depot 73 293 20
39 5:20 5:45 28 / 35 Tech Lab on Factory 74 285 23
40 5:31 7:21 28 / 35 Cloaking Field 0 125 29
41 5:35 5:52 28 / 35 SCV 0 140 31
42 5:39 6:04 29 / 35 Marine 0 155 33
43 5:51 6:51 30 / 43 Raven 55 0 40
44 5:52 6:09 32 / 43 SCV 21 4 41
45 6:04 6:54 33 / 43 Reactor on Barracks 143 0 48
46 6:08 7:38 33 / 43 Calldown: MULE 203 16 0
47 6:09 6:26 33 / 43 SCV 163 18 0
48 6:25 8:05 34 / 43 Command Center 0 80 10
49 6:29 6:46 34 / 43 SCV 0 93 11
50 6:46 7:03 35 / 43 SCV 195 157 21
51 6:51 7:51 36 / 43 Banshee 119 76 24
52 6:54 7:19 39 / 43 Marine 118 89 26
53 6:54 7:24 40 / 43 Supply Depot 18 89 26
54 7:04 7:49 40 / 43 Siege Tank 5 0 31
55 7:24 7:49 43 / 51 Marine 256 77 43
56 7:30 8:50 44 / 51 Siege Tech 247 0 46
57 7:30 7:55 44 / 51 Marine 197 0 46
58 7:30 7:47 45 / 51 SCV 147 0 46
59 7:37 9:07 46 / 51 Calldown: MULE 253 27 0
60 7:47 8:04 46 / 51 SCV 355 65 6
61 7:49 8:14 47 / 51 Marine 334 72 7
62 8:04 8:21 48 / 51 SCV 515 129 15
63 8:05 8:40 49 / 62 Orbital Command 382 133 16
64 8:05 8:30 49 / 62 Marine 332 133 16
65 8:14 8:39 50 / 62 Marine 422 166 21
66 8:21 8:38 51 / 62 SCV 485 193 25
67 8:30 8:55 52 / 62 Marine 586 227 30
68 8:38 8:55 53 / 62 SCV 667 257 34
69 8:40 10:10 54 / 62 Calldown: MULE 703 265 35, 0

[MCKL]

normally , you want . 2 rax pressure with Shell on by 6 min mark u should be in his base with 2 marauder and 5 to 6 marines ( do note when u push out ure building ur CC) , this can deny four gate. because. back in your base ur constantly producing SCV and MM, if u dont feel safe throw a bunker to be sure. as your troop knocks his door he would have like what? 2 stalker ? , 1 zealot , one sentries and stalker? he doesnt have much. unless he has more dont worry he wont push out knowing ure there. THERE u almost or i should say stop a 4gate. works for me thou. i wonder about others.

but its for more smaller maps. and u should note ur ramp. some map with big expansion, u have to guard it so hard. so dont go 1 rax FE

[PiG]

Whenever you make a post like this please attach replays! You can upload them to this site (check the right hand side of any sc2sea page) and just put the link in the thread! This allows people who are bored/interested to actually find things in the games you didn't even realise!

Could help you more then you realise

[NDG.Stitch]

One rax FE against protoss get really hard if the protoss decides to go for 3gate push or 4gate push early on. As others said, 2 rax FE is very safe. Because by then you'll have marauders and with decent micro on repairing your bunkers you can hold almost anything off

[ke_ivan]

Posting 5 losing 1 rax FE games is embarrassing! lol. On a side note, when I get to play again, I'll try 2 rax expand! I'm thinking of doing some mech play though after watching sc and mvp duke it out.

[|Erasmus|]

mech is terrible in TvP, though (generally... I'm sure there are some niche builds and timings and stuff).

[Dox]

Come on now. 3 base Mech is extremely powerful in TvP when played right. A dozen BF Hellions supporting a large number of Tanks is beastly.

[|Erasmus|]

Originally Posted by Dox

Come on now. 3 base Mech is extremely powerful in TvP when played right. A dozen BF Hellions supporting a large number of Tanks is beastly.

I don't think I've ever seen it work... So many protoss units are just so good against mech. Until you have a ridiculous number of tanks they are pretty damn useless against immortals.

[Dox]

I'll play some TvP Mech games over the next week and post some replays for you. There is a very delicate transition requirement and the general approach is, "I've already invested all of this money into X Infantry Upgrades and X Barracks, so why would I transition into Mech when I can just supplement with Ghosts and Medivacs?"

I generally stop making Barracks once my third goes up and begin the transition. On a map like XNC or Tal'Darim, it makes dividing the map so much easier, and allows you to take additional bases unchallenged. I would never, ever recommend it on a map like Terminus or Crevasse though. It all comes down to play style too. Some people are suited to using drops and infantry mobility to end the game on 2 or 3 bases, others are comfortable with playing a more passive style and taking half a dozen bases.