[SLCN.NXZ]

Until recently I considered my zvz solid but not great. However after 3 games against crAzerk (losing all three). I realized that as I have moved up the leagues more and more people have learned how to hold 14/14 plays with 15 hatch. Unfortunately most of my zvz wins have been in short games where I have either a BO win or I out micro my opponents, leaving me with short game times and no idea how to transition into and play late game zvz.

After these games ( you crAzerk ) I started to see my win rate in zvz drop as more and more people I played started doing 1 base roach, and hatch first to either completely counter or hold and come out with the advantage against the early ling/bane play. Without a game plan or followup to the build i was doing( due to lack of experience and general zvz knowledge) I attempted the +1 Roach/ling 9 minute attack posted on the TL forums, which while feeling strong seemed to be counter by the opponent making a few extra spines and abusing defenders advantage to come out ahead in the fight with a superior drone count. I have been uncomfortable 15 hatching as due to the influx of 9 pool builds and 10 pool no speed fast baneling plays, if the opponent goes these builds you are put very far behind(in the case of 10 pool bane) or have to have strong drone micro to stall for lings (9 pool).

So my question to you sc2sea:

Is there an in-depth guide on 14/14 in the zvz match-up including scouting and the reactions to the various builds the opponent are doing? If you feel 14/14 isn't the ideal build please post what you feel is? (eg. 15 hatch can actually hold vs 10 pools and you should do it most of the time) And finally transitioning to mid/late game and the different tactics one should be using in late game zvz.

[Paroxysm]

Recently, every game I play has ended up with a mass roach/infestor war. As you said, most people skip the entire ling bling micro factor and just start building roaches and drones straight up. I'll try and get a few replays up here for how I play the build, and if you want to have a few games add me, TAParoxysm.921

[SLCN.Kez]

i like to go 14/14 cauz i feel i have strong ling/bling micro, however if i see my opponent doin 1 base roach play ill plop my expo down right away, plop a roach warren down, and cancel bling nest if it hasnt already finished, drone up a lil bit cauz he just cant push u that fast, and then type gg cauz u really should win as he will have no map control, is vulnerable to speedling harassment when he does take his expansion which should be pretty late anyway if he went roach opener. i used to 15 hatch a fair bit but i started not to like it for similar reasons as you, and i still feel 14/14 is generally best opener. if u hate ling/bling micro wars simply get better at them, it sucks and its hard but if u can do it well then ull be better and win like 98% of ur games, i got a GM mate of mine (whos z) to prac against, we were only allowed to make lings and banelings and played probs around 20 or 30 games as practice. and the other good thing is that the micro translates to all other matchups as well, hope this helped!

[crAzerk]

15 hatch can actually hold vs 10 pools and you should do it most of the time

No. 10 pool beats 15 hatch for sure, assuming roughly equal skill level. It's a build order loss.

I think it's commonly agreed on that 14/14 is the safest, most sound build to use in ZvZs. It can work against a 15 hatch, when you yourself should transition into a 21 hatch, or try to do damage.

Any decent player who has practiced the 15 hatch roach defence build should be able to defend any baneling attempts you have, and can defend his expo from your speedlings (barring some maps), so you shouldn't be trying to all-in bust him or anything.

What is strong about transitioning into 21 hatch is that you can use speedlings to keep him contained (he can't attack you until he gets banelings for defence) so you have more than enough time to get a Drone lead (since it costs more for him to get roaches at the start vs lings)

In fact I think this 21 hatch (from a 14/14) works pretty well against any build, though I'm not really sure about a ling/bling. Shall let other more experienced Zergs (in the 14/14) comment.

[SLCN.NXZ]

Thanks man, I'll be sure to add you next time I'm on sc2. I feel like maybe there's a better way to play ling/bane vs hatch first that doesn't leave you so far behind economically. Unfortunately on ladder it's hard to justify 10 pool for 15 hatch when 14/14 beats it. Starcraft 1 esque coinflip anyone?

[SLCN.NXZ]

Definitely seems like 14/14 is the way to go then . What interests me is that after seeing IdrA vs ret game 1 at mlg is that IdrA held the ling/bane without going for the no queen roach defense. (That game was amazing to watch) But definitely I can see why the speedling expand is so effective vs hatch first. However if a player does the (albeit riskier) double queen with a spine defense into 2 base speedling/bane theres not much the 14/14 player can do. At least imo

[crAzerk]

I feel like maybe there's a better way to play ling/bane vs hatch first that doesn't leave you so far behind economically

Sorry, what?
The reason why you DON'T fall behind economically is because with a ling/bling ( if he goes more lings) you will beat his army, and with mass lings you will force much more roaches. (If he goes ling/bling too he's gonna be slower and you -should- win)

So you force him to invest in defensive spines, roaches, and in this time you got your expansion down and you can start droning up. If anything, you will be ahead economically (unless you showed 0 aggression and he actually felt safe to drone up after his 15 hatch.

I may be wrong, but this is how I always feel when I'm on the 15 hatch defender's side. I will try to press with Roaches to force some spines/roaches of his own, so I don't fall behind.

[matthras]

As someone who used to go 15 Hatch Roach almost every game, I started getting a bit frustrated with people going <11 pool (and the occasional mass speedlings) as well as maps with wider open naturals. So I've switched back to 14/14 (I would recommend gas first since if your opponent gets gas earlier, there's a timing where your Zerglings will have speed and he doesn't which you can take advantage of) and whilst I haven't quite smoothed out a few things it's definitely a much more safe opener. Expand in the early 20s if you can since you'll naturally have the minerals for it (sometimes I throw down a Roach Warren before expanding if I'm anticipating a Sling/Bling all in).
I usually try to go for Roaches pretty quickly - although that's because I don't trust my Ling/Bling micro :P Roaches 2 shot Blings, so as long as you have two out it's only a matter of micro.

The one thing I like about ZvZ is this: All the units are the same on both sides. Therefore there are less things that you'll need to think about:
1. Positioning (this is very important when you get to the Roach/Infestor wars)
2. Having more stuff than your opponent.
3. Upgrades
Therefore given appropriate scouting and judgement you should be able to roughly guess whether your opponent has been making drones or an army, and the only real effective means to do so before Lair tech is to send a small pack of Speedlings in (not just one Speedling). Even if scouting is denied by an army outside their expo, you should be able to take a quick glance at how big it is.

*scratchhead*

I don't feel like I've really answered any questions, but I get the impression that you're sort of blindly doing stuff without thinking about it which is why I mentioned some theorycraft above.

I usually play on NA (matthras.311), but you're welcome to hopefully add me and grab me at any rare time I might be on SEA (matthras.568) :P I daresay I prefer defensive play with timing attacks, so if you want a more aggressive player I'm probably not the right person to ask ^^;

[SLCN.NXZ]

Sorry crAzerk, that line you quoted was typed after i read paroxy's post but before yours. But I mean that should I pull drones off gas? Make spellings then drones to keep him contained? Or should the focus be drones immediately?

Also the 2 base ling/ bane I was refferring to is similar to how IdrA/dimaga/ret open their zvz when they hatch first. It's like 15 hatch into gas/pool usin queens and micro to defend ling bling till a spine comes.

[PiG]

Hi NXZ I don't have time to fully explain the advantages of the 14/14 opener however crazerk seems to have a good understanding. My contribution will be to look at a thread that Meatex wrote on this openers advantages which was very knowledgable:

http://www.sc2sea.com/showthread.php?t=1483

I disagreed with a few small points he made, view my comments on the thread to see that.

My other contribution will be to upload my most recent set of 14/14 vs mostly hatch first play from ladder with Targa:
http://www.sc2sea.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=319

Note: Many of these games after my initial speedling harass I sense weakness which instigates my aggression. If there is proper roach or bane defense I will usually play defensively after the initial harass. Atleast up until I choose a specific timing attack etc that I build up to. Many games I will simply cancel my banes nest if it looks like hes skipping ling speed.

Quick Comments

SLCN.NXZ:

[crAzerk]

Originally Posted by matthras

The one thing I like about ZvZ is this: All the units are the same on both sides. Therefore there are less things that you'll need to think about:

You got those 3 things right, but missed out probably the most crucial one that most people falter in (especially myself!)
- DRONES.

While against other races you usually have a comfortable window to Drone, in ZvZ this window is very tight and very variable and thus challenging to master. This is still one thing I am trying to learn, which I'll definitely have to master if I'm going to take games off the GMs I'll face.

But I mean that should I pull drones off gas? Make spellings then drones to keep him contained? Or should the focus be drones immediately?

If you're doing the 20/21 speedling expand, yes, pull drones off gas after speed, but put them back after you get your Hatchery.

You will probably want to be making speedlings instead of drones till you have about 10-15 (rough number) so you can apply some pressure. You're going to need these anyway if he decides to move out with his tiny roach force (and get crushed by you of course, since speedlings >> roaches in small numbers )

After that, assuming he went for a Fast expand build, you can go mass drones while transitioning to your next tech (e.g. if you saw Roaches, get Roach Warren and drone behind this, and you can decide whether to get Roaches once it pops)

Yup, PiG made some good suggestions for improvement, I am also going to watch those replays to learn

Quick Comments

SLCN.NXZ:

Thanks!

[SLCN.NXZ]

Thanks guys!

So I think I understand the speedling expand now. So you basically scout the hatch first then take the drones off gas and cancel the baneling nest or just not make it in the first place. Make enough lings not to die to any pressure and also use them to threaten a counter while waiting for your expand to finish.

Thank you soooo much PiG my biggest problem with that guide was the lack of replays and watching a great zerg you playing zvz will be great!

Thanks for the help guys, I'll go try some of this stuff out on the ladder