[TADivinity]

Im sure no one enjoys lining up with a Random player.
Oftentimes, you are in for a cheese.
Other times, it plays out standard. But to what degree (do you think) is it fair that you do not know the other players race until you scout them - especially when you have different build orders for each specific race?

Personally I have fairly distinct build orders for all 3 races. I have a standard against Random too, however I really don't like the fact that I am forced to play that way, simply because I don't know my oppositions race.

Obviously the strong Random players have learnt all 6 individual Match Ups to some degree of depth. Kudos to them...But it is their choice.

Does this justify them having an automatic advantage, right at the start of the game? Do you disagree with me and think that they dont actually have an advantage at all?

I will be very surprised if people don't play a specific way against a Random player until they scout them out. Is it fair that you must do this, whilst the other play can freely open with intel on what the MU is?

Or do you think this advantage is not very great - and simply adds another element to the game?

I'm interested in peoples views on this!

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:	nice thread
	Mayo:

[Zanderax]

I think at all levels of play, from bronze to code S GSL learning one race is better than learning all three.

[Satu]

Its entirely fair imo.

They need to play 3 races to only have a slight advantage earlygame, seems like more pressure is on them. You should play on korea though, random players there play straight up macro games, which is a lot scarier than poorly executed allins.

[FaDeBadger]

Any advantage they have initially is far outweighed by the disadvantage they have by having to learn so many different matchups.

If they play random to cheese then they are just hopeless anyway. It doesn't take that long to scout them out on most maps so my builds don't differ too much. I head towards 3 gates and if I haven't scouted him by then, then I'm doing it wrong.

[mOOnGLaDe]

i think its fair to not know the random players race because the only advantage they get to playing random is a few minutes of unknown, where as they have to know how to play all races

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:	agreed!
	stalking you:	Very True :)

[TABjornbrandr]

I think this is where the power of homogenised builds comes into play; I know that players like Dimaga love to open with a macro-heavy style no matter who they're playing.
Obviously, 15 hatching vs a random 'Toss who's going FFE is going to be a pain in the arse, but I suppose that in the end, the whole point of playing random is to get the initial advantage by essentially forcing the opponent to play in a more defensive (depending on the type of opponent, too) manner. Having such a large initial knowledge requirement certainly doesn't help a random player.
I suppose with regards to cheese, sure it's worse if you have to respond in a specific manner to x cheese as opposed to y cheese vs z race, but overall, their uncertainty with regards to preparing specific gameplans pretty much evens it out.

[TAXanT]

I just send out a scout right away and hope I scout them first so I can then decide what build to go quickly

[ToRMaverick]

I think the masses have spoken.

I too believe they should have the slight advantage based on the additional work required to learn the 3 races. If this wasnt the case "random" really ceases to exist. The person choosing random would be the only one disadvantaged if the op. knew up front what race you were... that is unless they knew all 3 races equally which Im betting they dont.

Scouting is still as important whether you know the race or not as if you didnt scout you would now if you needed to defend all ins, cheese or FE. etc regardless of the race.

I am only a Silver Toss but I also have specific builds per race... especially PvZ due to the potential 6 pool. In general my random games start off with a PvZ style build which is modified depending on the scouting info. (Silver = Cheese)

[Bugalugs McScruffin]

Originally Posted by TADivinity

Obviously the strong Random players have learnt all 6 individual Match Ups to some degree of depth. Kudos to them...But it is their choice.

We have to learn 9 match-ups!!! I personally think it's fair, because I struggle to learn any build orders, too many match ups. As people have stated, it's only a couple of minutes of information you normally wouldn't have.

Also, think about the opposite situation. You get told what they are instead of they are . All of a sudden you don't know they're and you don't have the knowledge that they are likely to cheese. Or at least that's people's general perception of .

[MazEi]

I would just send a slightly earlier scout to. But like others who have replied here, I too feel that the advantage is only for the first few minutes. After that I think the advantage swings back to you as you have played the one specific race you play for much more thus you know how to play the macro game better compared to someone who has to basically work 3 times as hard to achieve the same ability as the game goes on.

[krycek]

lol playing random is no advantage overall, they may have a certain power of uncertainty but this is only fleeting, i think others have said it all

[MeatSnack]

I used to play as random and i enjoyed the small advantage of leaving your opponent in the dark but as i played more i realized that you cant expect your opponent too play what is considered standard in that match up since they have to prepare for any race.

This means you have to adjust your play to their adjusted opening which in my experience has led to some pretty wack games and some weird situations.

Also i think playing random is really stupid if u plan on cheesing since you basically force them to scout you early and they will see what you are up too right away.

[ETL.Branno]

the only time it really annoys me is ZvZ because there has been quite a few times where if i had known he was zerg i would have won early on due to him making mistakes and also having to drone scout when he doesn't have to but i also feel like there are other ways that they get a big early game advantage in ZvZ just by me not knowing their race. not sure if other people feel the same about the other mirror matches.

[NvPinder]

To all the zerg players saying its fine, explain how protoss against random on tal'darim alter is even remotely fair...

If you don't wall, you're in a huge disadvantageous position against MANY zerg openers, not just cheeses, economic but still early speedling openings will ****. your. shit. up... Let alone the fact that forge FE is FARRRR preferred by every protoss i know on tal'darim, 1 gate/3 gate pressure-FE is just incredibly weak because of the length and the open areas you have to pass through on the way to the zergs base.

IF you wall, you're at a pretty big disadvantage in both the other matchups, especially PvP where it's mostly 4 gate vs 4 gate, so you CANT be defensive because you have your vulnerable structures at your choke and if you ever get stuck behind it it's over. And its similar against terran, if they do some sort of early 2 rax or even worse a early rax all-in, you've 100% lost your core and 1 gate which is pretty much insta-loss.

Oh, there's also the fantastic part where if you scout them last (off a pylon scout), you have to blind 4-gate to have a chance pvp, utterly crippling you pvz, or you can choose to keep building probes and not save chrono, in which case you've insta-lost pvp.

It's a pretty ******* similar situation on other maps, the one advantage is that most of them are smaller so 1 or 3 gate FE vs zerg is much better, and the ramp stops the opponent from picking off your buildings quiiiite as easily. I'd probably be more pissed about how gay PvR is on other maps, but its just so blatently broken on tal'darim that it blinds me from seeing how bad it actually is on other maps.

edit: i dono, at the end of the day choosing random, to me, should be that you just want to play any of the races, whether its because you're a casual player or a pro player looking to have some fun, it shouldn't be something people choose in order to get some stupid inherent advantage, which is much bigger than some of you are making it out to be -.-;;

Quick Comments

eCKo`Tazerenix:

So true

[ROOT`iaguz]

I'm a fan of idra's stance on Random.

"Playing random doesn't make you better because you have to learn 9 matchups, it's about learning 9 gay builds because you unfairly disadvantage your opponent".

My personal view is that I discard almost anything from any game vs a random player. They don't care about losing so they'll just play like spastics and that's no good when I'm testing builds!

Quick Comments

stalking you:

[NvPinder]

Oh i almost forgot, i made a random race flowchat back in beta: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=125488

EDIT: fun fact: when i made that post, platinum was the highest ladder division, they introduced diamond later in beta, and didnt introduce masters till a while after release i think?

[Highlander]

That TL forum post is so true and continues to hold true today. Hilarious.

As a random player (albeit Silver), learning all the match ups is a massive difference. Let alone the nuances of each map. FAR greater than the lack of knowledge on any non-Tal Darim ladder map.

I do really agree with Money on Tal Darim specifically, I consider the random advantage quite strong there. Random players should veto smaller maps come to think of it.

Almost offtopic, I do feel like sharing one thing though: The reason I love playing random is the same reason I don't veto maps, I love SC2 and want to experience everything I can with the play time I have. I love watching pro replays and know I'll never get to their level so I don't worry quite so much about perfecting one race of play. Playing random means I can enjoy a ZvZ as much as a ZvP or ZvT and I feel that kicks arse.

[Nemo]

All what is said are valid arguments. At my low level I would add that one could be bored to be obliged to learn all the precise timing and specific cheese that could occur in specific MU. Playing random and not telling the spawn race force the opponent to open with a good overall build (14/14; 3 gate robo or expand ; rax-gas) that allow you to be "more or less" in comparable position whatever happens.

It's like in chess learning all the openings could be very tedious when one is more interested in the middle game.

Of course if the random player only play random to farm portrait or victories and cheese / All-In all his way to make them, that's irrelevant as they are only interested by icons or portraits. They won't tell their race whatever fair or unfair you could consider it.

[aLtShortizz]

IMO they deserve the starting advantage. Although as Zerg, i usually just open a normal 14g14p against random and decide what to do when i know what im playing against. Most times though, the random player seems to scout me first rather than the other way round lol. I kinda agree with JP that if you scout a random player last, u`re in for alot of trouble as protoss. But i suppose on Maps like TDA, u can send out 2 probes(2nd one after gate)?

[EveVendetta]

Shortizzz, but you scouting on 9 AND sending an extra scout will put you significantly behind compared to him scouting on 12.

Significantly only because 4 gate will always win in a PvP on Taldarim, and you'll have like 1 zealot or stalker less which means the world.