[sRFullstop]

Hey everyone,

I played a ZvZ on ladder, and my opponent went for a very strange opening that threw me off and I did not know how to react. I scouted his Baneling Nest and proceeded to drop my own, but shortly after that, he sent about 20 lings to the middle of the map where I had vision, morphed 20 Banelings, and ran them into my base. I know that to make the opponent waste banelings, you send one ling to bait the baneling to explode. But, with that many banelings, I just didn't have the APM or the quickness needed to continuously send lings to explode the enemy banelings. The banelings proceeded to blow up a ton of drones and a few zerglings. How should I react to this pure baneling aggression?

The link to download the replay is here: http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/%28Z%2...20110817/12544

If you could, please look at the replay before commenting as you will be able to see the whole situation.

Thanks

[ToRPandarine]

I'm not a Z player and pretty low on the league chain but from what I've seen is that you have to:

1) Place a spine crawler (though, that many would completely negate it)

2) Tank with queen (again, too many)

3) Quickly hotkey a zergling or two and have them A-move (lets you get off a couple of hits (or 1 :P) and gets detonation)

4) Defensive banelings to get splash detonation (I think two will get them to pop if tightly bunched up)

5) Deny the morph by attacking (risky)

If someone thinks I'm wrong or along those lines, do tell me I like learning how other races work

[ProAnnn]

Block the ramp with 2 queens. If no 2 queens. Split your drones and suicide 1 drone to 2 banelings. 1-2 lings to 1 baneling. Pray that he aclicks his banelings.

[sRFullstop]

Originally Posted by ProAnnn

Block the ramp with 2 queens. If no 2 queens. Split your drones and suicide 1 drone to 2 banelings. 1-2 lings to 1 baneling. Pray that he aclicks his banelings.

Blocking the ramp with 2 queens would be fine, but that map was Taldarim and the ramp needs 3 - 4 queens to fully block. It's a good idea but it's so map specific, and I'm looking for a consistent way to counter this aggression.

He did not a-click his banelings, which means you have to manually hit them and kill them to make them explode. I didn't have enough time to explode all his banelings, and he ended up just marching in. Also, praying that your opponent makes a mistake... doesn't seem right when looking for a counter.

[PiG]

If you had a bane nest and saw him morphing you could have made 10 banelings of your own. If he came in a clump you could have used 2-4 banelings to annihilate his entire force. If he comes spread out then you can snipe his banelings with a spine + 2 queens or roaches.

If you have none of these then you've done something wrong! Most likely just droning too hard without scouting to see what he was doing!

Hope this helps

Quick Comments

	FaDeEvetS:
	sRFullstop:	This helps me a lot :)

[sRFullstop]

Originally Posted by PiG

If you had a bane nest and saw him morphing you could have made 10 banelings of your own. If he came in a clump you could have used 2-4 banelings to annihilate his entire force. If he comes spread out then you can snipe his banelings with a spine + 2 queens or roaches.

If you have none of these then you've done something wrong! Most likely just droning too hard without scouting to see what he was doing!

Hope this helps

Thanks PiG, that helped a lot! If I scout a Baneling Nest should I put down two spines for defense? I reacted to his blings with my own banelings, do you recommend doing that or using roaches to defend instead?

[PiG]

Originally Posted by Fullstop

Thanks PiG, that helped a lot! If I scout a Baneling Nest should I put down two spines for defense? I reacted to his blings with my own banelings, do you recommend doing that or using roaches to defend instead?

Either can work. The great thing about banelings is you can use them offensively to punish a greedy opponent very suddenly. Roaches on the other hand will have more utility later in the game but are slow early on.

As for using banelings to defend banelings it is VERY hard to micro bane vs bane defensively as if he comes in spread out you need twice his number of banelings to stop his attack. That being said that's why you use your queens and just 1 or possibly 2 spines and if he comes in spread out you can just snipe the banelings 1-2 at a time

So Attacking banes > defensive banes

Defensive banes + spine and queen > offensive banes

[AxSGRiM]

n1 cheuky weuky

[DemisodaSPR]

If he makes 15+ banes and spreads them out then right clicks into your main then you're dead UNLESS you have 2 queens blocking on hold, a spine and some banes being move commanded around the spine.

If you don't, click your screensave for your main hatchery, box drones, press S, f1 rightclick f1 rightclick 15 times and all drones will spread in <2 seconds.

[sRFullstop]

Originally Posted by DemisodaSPR

If he makes 15+ banes and spreads them out then right clicks into your main then you're dead UNLESS you have 2 queens blocking on hold, a spine and some banes being move commanded around the spine.

If you don't, click your screensave for your main hatchery, box drones, press S, f1 rightclick f1 rightclick 15 times and all drones will spread in <2 seconds.

Thanks for the f1-rightclick advice, that really helps minimize damage

So basically when I encounter this aggression on Taldarim I'm screwed because the ramp is wider than other maps? I normally only make one queen until I get my expansion, so if I scout a Baneling Nest should I make another queen? If they're spread out then banelings are basically useless right, since it takes more than one baneling to kill a baneling in a fight?

[PiG]

Originally Posted by Fullstop

Thanks for the f1-rightclick advice, that really helps minimize damage

So basically when I encounter this aggression on Taldarim I'm screwed because the ramp is wider than other maps? I normally only make one queen until I get my expansion, so if I scout a Baneling Nest should I make another queen? If they're spread out then banelings are basically useless right, since it takes more than one baneling to kill a baneling in a fight?

1) TDA you're not screwed you just need your 2nd queen built from your main and sent to your expo and bring both. Building a partial wall and just focusing is generally good enuf to kill most of the banes. However having atleast 1 spine aswell is vital to have the dps to drop spread out banelings

2) Defensive banelings are there to destroy clumped up banelings. If he spreads out then that's fine your banelings have served their purpose to force him to spread out.

Once spread out his banelings can be focused down one at a time by your queens and spine.

Therefore not useless, but yes once spread out they can't defend on their own as you said because it takes 2 to kill each 1 bane.

[SLCN.Kez]

on tal i like to get a third queen out and throw a tumour down early and put a evo chamber down at the choke so you can block it off with 2 queens, nice lil trick

[TACosmic]

Another thing to remember is the importance of scouting and interpreting this information. In ZvZ that first drone scout is crucial and you need to keep it alive until his lings kill it off.

Did he gas before pool?
Look at gas, is he mining with 1,2, or 3 drones?
Is he researching ling speed?
Is the hatchery making a queen?
How many larva is he saving up?
Has he fast expanded?

All the answers to these questions give vital insight into the matchup and how the rest of the game will evolve.

Eg:
Mining gas with 3 drones after ling speed is being researched points towards agressive baneling play.
2 drones on gas ---> indicative of defensive play, often defensive banelings, defensive roach
No ling speed, still mining gas -----> lots of banes
etc

Remember to spread your overlords as well, in maps like TDA its a bit hard to spot his expansion unless you get a lucky spawn/scout. Counting zerglings is the easiest way to predict agression early on.
Keep an overlord within vision of his expansion, if hes taking it, there will most likely be less lings out.

I'm sure I have missed things, in fact I have a personal preference to make roaches over banelings as I feel I am alot safer from agression and can be a bit more greedy with my droning, however that is purely my preference. Experiment with a friend and find out what works for you!

EDIT: I don't think I even answered your question lol

Quick Comments

PiG:

lol really good general zvz information nonetheless, basics like this are usually the most important thing.